Mac/Tivo Question(s)/Advice

[dougg]

Hi all -
OK I've been through this site a few times now and learned quite a bit. Still though a few questions remain, given my particular plans.

The facts: I work on a SuperDrive 1 Gb eMac (latest 10.3.x). I have a Series 2 Tivo.
The goals:
1. To be able to record to a stand alone DVD recorder from my Tivo
2. Take that DVD to my Mac and edit things down to a DVD that I can then
3. Record out to a DVD and play on conventional DVD players.
4. Will mac programs allow me to create a DVD with many different short segments (15 seconds to a few minutes) as 'chapters' and have an easy way to navigate to/through them?

- Anybody know of problems I'll have here along the way?
- Anybody doing something like this (so that they can share experiences, relevant program needs and a suitable stand alone DVD recorder)
- What should my concerns be in terms of DVD-/+R .... ? (My understanding is that unless I use Toast I am limited to DVD-R on the Mac, but that this won't typically play other computers/DVD players.)

[DanSlagle]

Hi all -
OK I've been through this site a few times now and learned quite a bit. Still though a few questions remain, given my particular plans.

The facts: I work on a SuperDrive 1 Gb eMac (latest 10.3.x). I have a Series 2 Tivo.
The goals:
1. To be able to record to a stand alone DVD recorder from my Tivo
2. Take that DVD to my Mac and edit things down to a DVD that I can then
3. Record out to a DVD and play on conventional DVD players.
4. Will mac programs allow me to create a DVD with many different short segments (15 seconds to a few minutes) as 'chapters' and have an easy way to navigate to/through them?

- Anybody know of problems I'll have here along the way?
- Anybody doing something like this (so that they can share experiences, relevant program needs and a suitable stand alone DVD recorder)
- What should my concerns be in terms of DVD-/+R .... ? (My understanding is that unless I use Toast I am limited to DVD-R on the Mac, but that this won't typically play other computers/DVD players.)

1. Why? I would look to set up your Tivo on a network. I personally just record the programs I want to tape to avoid a lengthy conversion process.
2. Once you convert to MPEG (burn DVD) it is a total pain to work with it on the Mac.
3. Most, see player list on this site
4. Yes if you combined them all in one movie you can set chapters in iMovie

Additional info... Cool Tivo "upgrades" here: http://www.9thtee.com/tivoupgrades.htm

[TugBoat]

If you want to spend the bucks, DVD Studio Pro will do what you wish. As long as your Audio/Video streams are DVD compliant. You could use MPEG Streamclip to slice and dice, but, DVDSP has it's own basic editor. You can play around with the 'Start', 'Clip Start Trim', and ' Duration' buttons to do editing up to one GOP (usually 1/2 sec) accuracy with the video, and much closer with the audio.

Line up the clips in the timeline and make as many chapters as you wish. Also, many people don't realize that you can reuse the same clip over and over in the same track by just specifying different start and stop times. Truly a great program for DVDs

[dougg]

Thanks to all - VERY helpful.
I think I see what I want to/have to do here, but your responses also showed me that I don't understand a very fundamental part of this process. It boils down to a simple set of related questions.
I'm confused about 'analog' and 'digital' vis-a-vis the TiVo.

1. If I record out shows that are already recorded on the TiVo to a stand alone DVD recorder, what format is the result? (which I suppose is also asking what format are they in on the TiVo.)

2. If I use a converter box that was nicely recommended to me, does that first transform the (digital?) TiVo recording into an analog one and then the Mac will change it back to digital when I plug the box into it and import? (which I suppose is also asking how much lost in the quality by that process.)

I'm not that worried about editing time as I wouldn't have to do this too often -- one DVD would cover me for a long time. I'd rather have more control in the editing and quality.

Thanks again so much for all the help, Doug

[dougg]

On these matters these words from a wise (but non-Mac) person -- is this true?

nt.

The problem with this is that very little software for the Mac supports MPEG2 video encoding or AC3 audio encoding and the run of the mill DVD player is designed to work only with MPEG2 for video and AC3 for audio. Apple has traditionally worked with Quicktime MOV and more recently DV format files hence the lack of support. If you want to use the Mac software to edit the video, this forces you to transcode (convert the video and audio streams from one set of codecs to a different set) everything before you can edit it and then transcode it back before you burn it to a DVD. It may also be necessary to seperate and recombine the video and audio streams if you want both. As a result most of your time will be spent transcoding. Because the original material is already in the proper codec and multiplexed correctly ( eg. The video blocks in MPEG2 and the audio blocks in AC3 are interleaved with each other in the file on the DVD so the player can extract the sound and synchronize it with the video as it reads the disc ), this is necessary only to support the needs of the Mac Editor. The program I mentioned that I use on the PC (VideoReDo) avoids this by simply cutting the file up to extract the pieces I need and if necessary blending the cut edges together to allow cuts and transitions to sound and appear smooth. It doesn’t transcode or re-encode (keep the same codec but change either the sampling rate or resolution) the source material.

I have heard (but not having a Mac have never tried) that some people have successfully used some of the PC editing tools in a Mac Virtual PC to avoid the transcoding issue. It might be worth looking into if you have the Virtual PC environment available. It will run slower but not as slow as it will with all the transcoding. Programs such as VideoReDo and Mpeg2VCR come with 30 day free trial versions so it wouldn’t cost anything to try them. You still have to get the source files onto your Mac which means you still need a drive that supports the DVD format if you go this way. You will also need a (PC?) program to write the mpeg2 files back to a DVD-R disc in the correct physical format (DVD-Video).

[pixeljammedia]

I'm confused about 'analog' and 'digital' vis-a-vis the TiVo.

1. If I record out shows that are already recorded on the TiVo to a stand alone DVD recorder, what format is the result? (which I suppose is also asking what format are they in on the TiVo.)

The TiVo records the (probably analog) signal from the television digitally by encoding it to a form of mpeg2. This mpeg has special flags that allow it to ffwd and rewind easily. They are set at periodic times (I believe every 5 seconds) and they need to be stripped out to make a compliant mpeg.

Though they make Tivo/DVD recorder combos, your set-up of 2 different boxes forces the TiVo to spit out it's signal through your analog connection to your DVD recorder. Assuming you do not have a DirectTivo, then you have now gone Analog to Digital to Analog to Digital with your video. That's 2 encodes from your original signal and there has been some (though probably acceptable) loss of quality.

2. If I use a converter box that was nicely recommended to me, does that first transform the (digital?) TiVo recording into an analog one and then the Mac will change it back to digital when I plug the box into it and import? (which I suppose is also asking how much lost in the quality by that process.)

Much like above, the signal will go through a conversion from TiVo to Mac, and assuming you want it back to DVD, a final conversion at the end. This is assuming you went through a capture box.

Instead, take your Video_TS folder out of the DVD by mounting it to the desktop and ripping it. If there is no encryption (probably the case) then you can just drag it onto your desktop and use something like YadeX or OSeX to reformat it into a standalone VOB or MPEG. This will have no loss in quality from your DVD. Now use MPEG Streamclip to edit, cutting out commercials, appearances by Keanu Reeves,etc.

If you had DVD Studio Pro you could do some precise trimming, but MPEG Streamclip will usually be able to cut during the black fadeouts to and from commercial.

Because of the structure of MPEGs frame-by-frame editing is difficult, because many frames are missing information in order to save space. This is why some are telling you to use an A>D converter to go to DV. That will give you frame by frame editing capabilities. If that is necessary, then go for it. otherwise use MPEG Streamclip and live with the laxk of precision.

I'm not that worried about editing time as I wouldn't have to do this too often -- one DVD would cover me for a long time. I'd rather have more control in the editing and quality.

Thanks again so much for all the help, Doug

And ummm, don't listen to people who say it can't be done on a Mac. Whatever it is, it usually can.

[TugBoat]

And ummm, don't listen to people who say it can't be done on a Mac. Whatever it is, it usually can.

Kinda makes you wonder if he even clicked on the MPEG Streamclip links.

One thing to add. If the DVD is unencrypted, as it should be, you can use MPEG Streamclip to rip scenes right off the DVD. Just right click on a VOB, select 'Open with...', and when Streamclip asks if you want to open 'alone' or 'All', select All. It will open the entire VOB set in the editor. Select the In/Out points and save as whatever.

Of course it doesn't give frame accuracy, yet, but I've found the Half Second accuracy to be sufficient for my needs. And, if you choose to save as M2V and M1A/AC3, it will import directly into DVD Authoring Apps. The entire process taking mere minutes....without transcoding

Oh, Streamclip is FREE.

[jaytbird]

To risk sounding stupid, 'cause I don't have time to go back and compare them, but is the main difference between MPEG Streamclip and ffmpegX the fact that MPEG Streamclip can cut/edit the video? Or is there something I'm missing?
JW