Is nomorecoasters.com wrong about 8X burning???

[CHARM]

I know this is my third post, Sorry. to the mod if I broke a rule please just delete it, and pm me.

www.nomorecoasters.com is a great site. I credit them with making an expert(me) feel like a total noob all over again when I found out through their site that none of these "retail" companies make their own discs. I had gotten some Compusa dvdr's at 20$/50 pack thinking this was the deal of the century I bought a bunch of them, I had to know and after heavy googling I found nomorecoasters, DvdInfoPro and found out that these discs were manufactured by Princo, so I returned all the unopened ones.

ok to my question: on this website the writer says this:
"If you compare a pressed media and a burned media under a microscope, you can see that the pressed media is fairly precise, while the burns are fairly erratic, and it's almost a miracle that burning works at all. They're going to have a hard time when Blu-Ray gets here, as the window for error has been made even more finite, and the 4x and 8x DVD burning is already pushing the envelope."



now this site does have a negative tone, and it may be a little out of date, but What is the official verdict on 8x burning?
Are 8X discs/burns any bit less compatible than 4x?
Are they more prone to CRC or PIF errors?

thanks for any input

its so funny, I feel like Im back in 99 when 8X CDR was new and when a 50 pack of cdr's was 50$. 8x burns skipped in many car units, i burned at 4x for so long, and still usually burn 8x! I actually had a 8x CDRW burner and I supose didnt have a buffer, if you moved the window it failed! reseting the PC and exiting all programs that where on at startup!

[Bob W]

Hmm I have some 8X media that burns at 16X on my NEC 3500a burner and they play just fine on any player. I think perhaps two years ago the general thought was that 8X was going to be the top end for DVDR.

[johns0]

Some of my best dvd burns have been done at 8x,gonna get a 16x burner at the end of the month.No need to burn at 4x when you can get quality 8x and higher and burn as fast as you can.

[CHARM]

cool,

i am so old school, I just got the whole slower is better concept so engrained in my head

I always run the "data verification" check in Nero and in all these years has NEVER found an error, but it makes me feel better 8)

and johns0 when you say some of your best burns where done at 8x do you mean after testing? or is it just a general statement?

also I am using a LG 4082, its the second to last released one.

[johns0]

CHARM,i test my burns with kprobe2 which only works with liteon dvd burners,it tests the quality of the burns with a graph showing relative error spikes,the lower and fewer the better.For example-
pro3.png

Maximum pi should be 288 and maximum pif is 4,higher amounts may cause problems playing in dvd players.

[KTH]

I thought http://www.nomorecoasters.com was Lord Smurfs web site. Maybe he should answer your questions. In reply to his statement about comparing disc's using a microscope, I thought an electron microscope would be required to do that kind of comparison. I might be wrong, but I thought I recalled reading it somewhere.

[Baldrick]

please post dvd media posts in the media forum. moving you.

[lordsmurf]

If you get good results at 8x then do it. Having 8x on 8x media should be fine, by all accounts. It's overburning (speedwise) where you run into the real trouble.

The quote you pulled was from the "wobble groove" information, so be sure to NOT take that out of context or draw false conclusions beyond that. That was more a statement about difficulty of burning tech, more so than with quality of burns.


Now with that out of the way...

Microscope images were shared with me by somebody at a clean room at a university. They were quite interesting, and were supposed to be added to my site. A hard drive crash in late May destroyed quite a bit of my media research, that included.

Higher speed is more prone to errors. Period. Law of physics.

So far, media companies are doing a pretty admirable job of releasing good 8x media, and not rushing things like the drive companies (16x, 12x, etc ... before discs exist ... pointless). At least, the 8x is no worse than the 4x was.

As far as "higher speed burns" being "less compatible" ... that's a complex subject. I've seen a lot of things, talked with a lot of people, and nothing conclusive ever seems to come from it. Compatiblity has to do with the data structure and the reflectivity of the media. The question is: Does a higher burn speed affect this? It should be "no", and theories of "stronger burner lasers" and "light burns" are more myth than fact, so you end up in a conundrum (sp?). The best advice here is "do what you see works for you" and if you are not viewing the final contents (distribution to customers), then the advice is "play it safe".

For some of this, you have to be anecdotal to CD-R/RW technology. But remember to ignore the "x" speeds and go from the data transfer rates. Supposedly, these optical techs have similar max ranges for this, and CD media has pretty much hit it's peak. DVD has already gone a bit beyond that.... soo..... how much further can it go? Probably not much.

Tech is always changing. Hard to keep up.

[Treebeard]

The best advice here is "do what you see works for you" and if you are not viewing the final contents (distribution to customers), then the advice is "play it safe".

I prefer to "play it safe" and still burn my 4x media @ 2x. I sell lots of media and keep a lot for myself also. I prefer to burn slower b/c it will cause less read errors and over time read errors can and will increase.

[-jsl-]

www.nomorecoasters.com is a great site.

Really? I fail to see why because it's full of info which at best is outdated and biased nonsense.

For some of this, you have to be anecdotal to CD-R/RW technology. But remember to ignore the "x" speeds and go from the data transfer rates. Supposedly, these optical techs have similar max ranges for this, and CD media has pretty much hit it's peak. DVD has already gone a bit beyond that.... soo..... how much further can it go? Probably not much.

"x speed" is just another way of write the data transfer rate and why on earth would the max data transfer speed be the same for all optical techs? I think you confuse the data transfer speed with the max rotation speed which is essentially the same for all discs made of the same polycarbonate material.

[Faustus]

I will add this to the subject of slower burns being more compatible. It has alot to do with the quality of the disk.

For example I had a pickly Cd player in my car, using cheap disk they did not work, using ok disk I could burn at like 8x no problems. Using TYs I could burn at full 40x with zero issues.

[Adder_78]

Really? I fail to see why because it's full of info which at best is outdated and biased nonsense.

I think that there is lots of good info. But little bit nonsense too. But if you think overal then it's very good job from lordsmurf.

[lordsmurf]

I will add this to the subject of slower burns being more compatible. It has alot to do with the quality of the disk.

For example I had a pickly Cd player in my car, using cheap disk they did not work, using ok disk I could burn at like 8x no problems. Using TYs I could burn at full 40x with zero issues.

This sounds more like a media issue.

The true problem of "faster burns being worse than slower burns" (and when burning well within the parameters of the media write speed) is when the data is fine, and the disc passes software tests. It will play on ROMs and other devices. But then you hit this one player (typical of VCDs on old players, and of CD audio players) where an 8x burn refuses to play where a 2x burn will. Same disc, same burning hardware, etc. Why? WTF? That's your dilemma. There are lots of theories about burning hardware, firmware, etc ... but all just theories, no conclusive evidence.

[CHARM]

does anybody know the deal with overburning a dvd?

I cant find anything at ALL

I just want to know the max number of mins or bytes relative to nero

[Adder_78]

does anybody know the deal with overburning a dvd?

I cant find anything at ALL

I just want to know the max number of mins or bytes relative to nero

Well you could "overburn" these discs:
http://www.mpegit.net/modules.php?name=Reviews&rop=showcontent&id=419