Is it legal to make a backup if...

[saspgmr]

I know the lines are blurred but I think most people on this site agree that if you own a copy of a movie you can make and use a backup copy for your own personal (non-comercial) use. But I'd like some opinions on this question:

If I buy a movie (DVD, VHS, etc.) with a group of friends (assuming equal ownership rights for each member of the group), how many "backup" copies can we make, and who can play them, and when (in "legal rights" terms)?

[Tommyknocker]

One copy. You each own a part of that copy as well. Anyone who owns a part of the movie can play the movie when he or she wants. IMO.

[MrMungus]

Zero. Copying copyrighted video is illegal. Period.

[Tommyknocker]

In the US we are allowed to own a copy for archival purposes.

[MrMungus]

In the US we are allowed to own a copy for archival purposes.

Incorrect. Copying copyrighted video is *illegal*.

[Tommyknocker]

In the US we are allowed to own a copy for archival purposes.

Incorrect. Copying copyrighted video is *illegal*.

Says who? This is the forum policy here:

Fair use / Backup
When you own the media, they are the rights you get automatically DESPITE what content providers or laywers might tell you. These rights are fully supported by the crew at VCDhelp and are the basis for most of the site. These fair use rights evaporate when you sell the media in question.

Backup
You have the right to make A backup of your media. You can back up as much or as little as you wish.

Format shifting
You have the right to convert your media to another format.

Time shifting
You have the right to time shift your legitimately received cable, tv or satellite signal for viewing at a later time

Fair use DOES NOT APPLY TO rentals or borrowed media.

[MrMungus]

Says who?

[/quote]

Says US copyright law unless the law has changed since the last time I read a debate on this. And no, "fair use" doesn't include making copies of a whole copyrighted work.

[Tommyknocker]

Can you reference the debate?

[handyguy]

One copy. A guy on tv actually discussed this.
I know of not one person in the usa who ever got arrested for doing one copy.

Doing 200 & giving them out to your friends is not legal.

[MrMungus]

Can you reference the debate?

No, but I can reference the law.

http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap1.html

Copying restrictions: http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap1.html#106

Fair use: http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap1.html#107

I don't see anywhere in there where it says that someone may make a copy for archival or any othe purpose. Maybe I'm missing something.

[MrMungus]

One copy. A guy on tv actually discussed this.
I know of not one person in the usa who ever got arrested for doing one copy.

Doing 200 & giving them out to your friends is not legal.

Right. But he asked if it was *legal*. The government doesn't arrest all speeders or drunk drivers, either, despite the number of people they kill annually.

[Tommyknocker]

Can you reference the debate?

No, but I can reference the law.
http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap1.html

Copying restrictions: http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap1.html#106

Fair use: http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap1.html#107

I don't see anywhere in there where it says that someone may make a copy for archival or any othe purpose. Maybe I'm missing something.

It hought it was so cute where you stopped at 106. I read down to 108 where it gives libraries and archives the right to make no more than one copy to make it available for the public.

I know I am not a library or an archive, but you did miss that.

[MrMungus]

In the US we are allowed to own a copy for archival purposes.

Incorrect. Copying copyrighted video is *illegal*.

Says who? This is the forum policy here:

Fair use / Backup
When you own the media, they are the rights you get automatically DESPITE what content providers or laywers might tell you. These rights are fully supported by the crew at VCDhelp and are the basis for most of the site. These fair use rights evaporate when you sell the media in question.

Backup
You have the right to make A backup of your media. You can back up as much or as little as you wish.

Format shifting
You have the right to convert your media to another format.

Time shifting
You have the right to time shift your legitimately received cable, tv or satellite signal for viewing at a later time

Fair use DOES NOT APPLY TO rentals or borrowed media.

What people believe to be legal and what is actually legal are two different things. I *personally* think people should be allowed to make a copy of their DVD so they don't wreck the original. That doesn't make it legal. What's funny about all of this is that most of the "articles" I've read about copying DVDs and its legality *never* mention the absolute legality of copying a copyrighted work or they refer to the ongoing debate about circumventing anti-copying technology.

But hey, I could be wrong. Maybe making copies is, in fact, legal. I have yet to see some law stating so.

[MrMungus]

Can you reference the debate?

No, but I can reference the law.
http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap1.html

Copying restrictions: http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap1.html#106

Fair use: http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap1.html#107

I don't see anywhere in there where it says that someone may make a copy for archival or any othe purpose. Maybe I'm missing something.

It hought it was so cute where you stopped at 106. I read down to 108 where it gives libraries and archives the right to make no more than one copy to make it available for the public.

I know I am not a library or an archive, but you did miss that.

Right. You are *not* a public library. Therefore, that is not a defense against copyright infringement. I left it out because it's irrelevant to the question of if an individual may make a copy.

[Tommyknocker]

don't see anywhere in there where it says that someone may make a copy for archival or any othe purpose. Maybe I'm missing something.

You're the one who said you had not seen it in there. Just thought I would point it out to you.

[MrMungus]

don't see anywhere in there where it says that someone may make a copy for archival or any othe purpose. Maybe I'm missing something.

You're the one who said you had not seen it in there. Just thought I would point it out to you.

Come on. I was referring to the original poster's question. He never said he was operating a public library. If so, then yes, it's 100% legal to make a copy.

[Nolonemo]

Well in the US, you can't make a copy of most commercial DVDs without circumventing the encryption, which definitely is illegal, irrespective of fair use and other pure copyright issues.

I'm not saying it should or shouldn't be, just that under the laws as they presently stand, it is.

[housepig]

also, if you read the library-archiving section, it is for situations where a replacement copy would be impossible to find or prohibitively expensive to replace - neither are the case with 99% of commercial dvd's...

[crashnburn]

copying DVD is generally illegal in any sense even if claim that you own it. But then again, no one give a shit about what you do because it's your own personal use. If I were to define it, it's only illegal if you copy and sell it for a profit. But copying and give it to a friend, family is OK because it's YOUR personal use. So this question should not even be brought up because a true honest personal would not copy ANYTHING!!!

[haloblack]

copying DVD is generally illegal in any sense even if claim that you own it.

No, it's not. If I own it then I can copy it. Period. The only illegality involved is circumventing the copy-protection, and until that's tested in a court of law then no one can say otherwise.

But copying and give it to a friend, family is OK because it's YOUR personal use.

Your definition of "personal use" is quite dizzying. I'd hate to have a toothbrush in your house.

So this question should not even be brought up because a true honest personal would not copy ANYTHING!!!

So my backup of my irreplaceable Criterion version of "Spinal Tap" makes me dishonest? I don't think so.

[Zal42]

I seem to remember a court ruling that making copies of copyright protected material you legally possess is allowed, but all copies must be treated, along with the original, as a single unit. So if you do something like go in on a DVD with your friends, you can back it up all you want -- but whoever is in physical possession of the original must also be in physical possession of all the backups.

But I'm far from a lawyer. Maybe someone can ask DaBarrister?

Personally, I don't back up my DVDs. It seems a waste of time and effort to me, given that they're likely to outlast my interest in them.

What I do, and this is fully supported by US law, if format shift, so I can watch the movies on my PDA and on my computers that lack a DVD drive.

[Nolonemo]

What I do, and this is fully supported by US law, if format shift, so I can watch the movies on my PDA and on my computers that lack a DVD drive.

Sorry, Zal, still illegal, because you have to crack the encryption to rip the DVD. Now maybe if you capture the DVD video stream out of the analog outs of you player, that would be OK......

[MrMungus]

copying DVD is generally illegal in any sense even if claim that you own it.

No, it's not. If I own it then I can copy it. Period. The only illegality involved is circumventing the copy-protection, and until that's tested in a court of law then no one can say otherwise.

But copying and give it to a friend, family is OK because it's YOUR personal use.

Your definition of "personal use" is quite dizzying. I'd hate to have a toothbrush in your house.

So this question should not even be brought up because a true honest personal would not copy ANYTHING!!!

So my backup of my irreplaceable Criterion version of "Spinal Tap" makes me dishonest? I don't think so.

How did you decide that it's legal? Link?

[duhmez]

What I do, and this is fully supported by US law, if format shift, so I can watch the movies on my PDA and on my computers that lack a DVD drive.

Sorry, Zal, still illegal, because you have to crack the encryption to rip the DVD. Now maybe if you capture the DVD video stream out of the analog outs of you player, that would be OK......

Couple points. 1) It's incorrect to say "copying is ellgal because you must break the encryption"
Believe it or not alot of dvd's are not encrypted so that in itself is not a reason.

2) This site services more than the U.S.
In Canada here, we have what's called "Private copying" in our copyright act. We CAN make an entire copying for non commercial use of any sort. (I can't speak for the U.S. laws of couse)

3) in many countries (the majority in fact) cracking the encryption is not ilegal. It's OK here in Canada and many others. Just because the encryption is sthere, we can crack it. Only for movies we ownt hough, we cant crack encryption to gain unauthorized access to bank system for example.

Bottom line: Is it legal to do what you ask? Consult a lawyer, there are many countries with many different laws.

[MrMungus]

This discussion reminds me of these guys: http://www.cleanfilms.com/faq.phtml

I don't think that's legal. Anyone have a reference to the "co op" loophole?

[jtommyj]

Back to the main question which I knew would star a firestorm with the group. Just make as many damn copies as you want for yourself, don't sell them, and for God's sake, KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT ABOUT IT !!
Unless big brother has a camera in your house, what you do in it and with your property will be your business UNTIL YOU make it some one elses.

In many places in the USA sodomy even with your spouse is illegal but unless you stand nude out in your yard and call the police and tell them, how will they know ?

Why make up these fictional scenarios to start this crap up again ?
If anyone is really so cash strapped that they need to buy DVD's "with a group of friends" you won't have the resources to buy a computer and a burner anyway to copy them.

These kind of questions are a joke. No one will ever agree because there is very little case law that has been consistent.
If you really want to know, call up someone in the motion picture association legal department and see what they have to say. And be sure to give them your name and address and phone number so they know where to start looking.

[duhmez]

true it's unlikely scenereo to get busted fo doing this, but some day a person may get busted for infringement, p2p or something, adn the police may raid the house, and if that's the case a guy may want to keep his home squeeky clean.

[crashnburn]

personal use meaning you can do whatever you want because no one gives a rat ass as what you do. Everything is illegal only if you get caught by authority. If you make copies of your favorite movie and pass it around to people that's good for you. But if copy and sell it and got busted then good for you as well. Personally, I do whatever I want as long as I don't get busted. If people want a copy of a movie I have then I am more then happy to burn a copy for them as long as they provide me with a blank DVD.[/quote]

[MrMungus]

personal use meaning you can do whatever you want because no one gives a rat ass as what you do. Everything is illegal only if you get caught by authority. If you make copies of your favorite movie and pass it around to people that's good for you. But if copy and sell it and got busted then good for you as well. Personally, I do whatever I want as long as I don't get busted. If people want a copy of a movie I have then I am more then happy to burn a copy for them as long as they provide me with a blank DVD.

[/quote]

Oh, sorry. I was answering the "is it legal" question, not, "will I get caught".

[Rookie64]

kind of hard to debate is it legal when ads like these are all over the 'net...and endorsed by big corps like AOL and Yahoo :P




According to Baldrick, you have a right to make a backup...otherwise, there would not be guides here to show you how.