Is it legal to make a backup if...

[adam]

I like you, but that's a dumbass argument.

You providing your own time and materials is not the same as taking somebody else's time and materials.

That may really be the "legal" analysis, I don't know, but it's surely NOT common sense by any means.

I'm waiting for software and video/audio to be lumped together, after all, they are both JUST CODE on a piece of storage media.

Did you even read the post which I was replying to? Obviously not because what you just said makes absolutely no sense.

I never said taking a movie off the shelves is even remotely similar to backing one up yourself. I was simply clarifying that when you purchase a movie you are buying the rights to use the medium it is stored on and not the movie itself, otherwise you would have the same RIGHTS in the DVD in the store as the VHS you previously bought.

There's nothing dumbass about the argument if you simply read the posts in context and in order.

[lordsmurf]

Then I must have missed something. I take it back.

... but it did sound really bad when taken out of context, appearently as I have done.

Nevermind.

[Will Hay]

The reason sites like this and programs for backing up DVDs are legal is because a DVD is simply a medium. It is the content on it which contains the copyright. You can use the information on this site or the latest version of DVDxCOPY to make a copy of a home movie I shoot. There is nothing illegal about it. If I go and get a copyright on it and pay the licensing fees for CSS encryption THEN it is illegal for you to make a backup copy under both copyright law as well as the DMCA.

Everything you've said so far, to me a least, makes complete sense but there's just one thing that confuses me.

The reason sites like this and programs for backing up DVDs are legal is because a DVD is simply a medium.

Again I agree with this but...

You can use the information on this site or the latest version of DVDxCOPY to make a copy of a home movie I shoot.

If this is the case, why does the site advocate the use of DVDdecrypter, Smartripper etc.
Whilst I agree there is no 'common law' with regards the backing up of a legally owned DVD surely the case of decryption software has already been tested.
I thought that whilst the backing up of DVD's has yet to be tested (but is of course illegal) the software used to circumvent copy protection has.
Is this not the case?
I suppose all I'm saying is whilst this site has been over-run with ripping/backup techniques lately and lost site of what I always felt was its main aim (capturing, encoding, authoring etc.), the links to ripping software is flying a little too close to the wire, no?
I agree there is legitimate software out there which can be used for legal purposes, but surely ripping software can't fall into this category?

Anyway, regardless of the argument for and against...



Sounds to me like the case is closed
Will Hay

[MrMungus]

Sounds to me like the case is closed
Will Hay

If you read it on the web, it must be true!

:P

[adam]

If this is the case, why does the site advocate the use of DVDdecrypter, Smartripper etc.
Whilst I agree there is no 'common law' with regards the backing up of a legally owned DVD surely the case of decryption software has already been tested.
I thought that whilst the backing up of DVD's has yet to be tested (but is of course illegal) the software used to circumvent copy protection has.
Is this not the case?

No this is not the case. Remember the only thing that makes the breaking of encryption illegal is the DMCA, and the DMCA has a specific provision which says that nothing contained in its language applies to those rights protected by Fair Use. IF making a personal backup is legal under Fair Use than that means the user has a affirmative defense to copyright infringement, AND they are exempt from the DMCA. It all goes back to the core issue, does Fair Use protect personal backups? If so than it is legal to make backups of DVDs even if they are encrypted.

Now a very important thing to realize is that Fair Use is not static and the terms in the code are anything but exclusive. It is really more of a legal tool than a law. So even though there is no caselaw or explicit language saying so, our backups could be protected under Fair Use right now, and of course that is the argument. If in the future if it is deemed explicitly that Fair Use allows for personal backups, then that means that all the backups we have made up until that point will be deemed to have been legal at the time they were made. So the argument is that we have a current right to make Fair Use backups, as such the DMCA does not apply, and either these rights will be validated through case-law in the future, or the issue will never be resolved.

The DMCA and its effect on DeCSS code has been litigated numerous times but the cases have not come anywhere close to bringing up Fair Use backups. The cases dealt mainly with the legality of the code itself (deemed legal because it has other uses, ie: play DVDs on Linux).

[BobK]

> But hey, I could be wrong. Maybe making copies is, in fact, legal. I have yet to see some law stating so

Interesting. I have yet to see some law stating that it's legal for me to eat dinner with the fork in my left hand so apparently that's illegal too?

[MrMungus]

> But hey, I could be wrong. Maybe making copies is, in fact, legal. I have yet to see some law stating so

Interesting. I have yet to see some law stating that it's legal for me to eat dinner with the fork in my left hand so apparently that's illegal too?

Sorry, I should have said "case law" for those who didn't understand what I meant.

[Augster]

Sorry to drag this up again.

In light of 321 closing it's doors, I think most of you can see the trend that is coming. Hollywood, and the game makers, have a TON of money. Money is what gets things done on Capitol Hill. 321 Studios is the first software company that got attacked and shut down. They were projecting to make $150-$200 million this year. NEXT! I'm sure these pricks will set their sights on the next most popular software for DVD backup, and sue the piss out of them. Ad infinitum.

It is a scary trend. Secondly, when all the folks that make money on DVD backup software are out of business, the folks in Hollywood will be coming after sites that host freeware, like DVDShrink, that does the same thing. Sites that host the freeware will have to take the downloads down, or get shut down.

Lastly, the folks in Hollywood will come after sites, like this one, that puts out information to a large volume of people, on how to make DVD backups. This will be last, because, technically, it is a 1st Amendment violation. Freedom of the press, freedom of assembly. This will be a bit tricky to do, and thus, if they try to execute it at all, will be dead last. Once they shut down all the folks making money on DVD backups, as has already started, then shut down all the readily available freeware, folks talking about doing it will be kind of irrelevant.

The way it is today, Joe Jerkoff could buy a DVD, think, "Hey, I should back this up so I don't scratch the original all to hell." hop on Videohelp.com, do some reading, download a few things, and have his DVD backed-up in a few short hours. That is because it can be done, easily, with freeware, and everything you will need is here in the forums, in the various tutorials, and the freeware in the download section. This is the kind of thing Hollywood does not want.

There will always be software available to the dedicated few. Whether via P2P, FTP, or email, someone will always be out there backing up their DVD's/games. Hollywood could give a shit less about this, as it will only be a few thousand folks. The way it is now, ANYONE with a computer and a little bit of reading could back up a DVD in a very short time. They will never snuff out this "pirating" for good, they know that, they just want to curb it to the select few. They just don't want some ******* walking into Best Buy and picking up some software that would copy every DVD and Game in the place.

In my earlier post, I was singled out as a heretic. Unfortunately, as time rolls on, my words are becoming prophetic. Don't get me wrong, I believe one SHOULD be able to make backup copies, at least for himself. Obviously, Congress does not see it that way and only listens to cash from the film and game industries. The only way to change the way this is going, apart from coming up with MILLIONS of dollars to lobby folks in Congress, is with your vote. Vote for change at the national level. The way it is now, obviously, the folks in Washington are against us small folk that just want to back up our Thomas the Tank Engine DVD's so our 2 and 3 year olds don't scratch the hell out of the original, thus forcing us to buy more $19.99 DVD's. Right now, with the 321 Studios ruling, it is a criminal act. Is distributing copied DVD's criminal? Yes. Is P2P of DVD movies criminal? Yes again. But backing up your own DVD's for personal use shouldn't be.

Hollywood has cast a very broad net, ensnaring us all, grouping the criminals in with the innocents. Using their cash, they have made Congress send out a message saying, "DVD copying software is illegal." Thus, copying your DVD's, and games, is illegal, as you'd have to use illegal software to do it. There is the rub. It may be perfectly legal to have backed up copies of your DVD's. Congress has been skirting that issue. But, if you have to use illegal software to backup the DVD, you are obviously doing something against the "law". Now, if you could backup your DVD without using the software, Congress would have to make a ruling whether or not owning backups is illegal. Say, take a polaroid of a DVD, then superimpose that picture onto a blank disk, then actually have it work. If it worked, then MAYBE it would be legal to own a backup, as you didn't use illegal software to obtain it. Far-fetched for sure. Unfortunately, again, Hollywood would most likely go after the "PROCESS" of making the backup, and have all cameras declared illegal.

Enough.

[maek]

(edit) helps if I provide the link!!!

Take a look at this article -- 1,000,000 can't be wrong, but the article does support Mr. Mungus' position...

http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/biztech/08/04/copying.dvds.ap/index.html

[Shocker Milwaukee]

Spanked by the janitor!

[adam]

321 Studios is the first software company that got attacked and shut down. They were projecting to make $150-$200 million this year. NEXT! I'm sure these pricks will set their sights on the next most popular software for DVD backup, and sue the piss out of them. Ad infinitum.

321 Studios was never attacked by the MPAA. 321 Studios sued the MPAA! Granted it was probably pre-emptive, but they brought it on themselves. They knew they had enough money to fund that lawsuit. They didn't count on also being sued by Macrovision. They couldn't fund both lawsuits once the initial one entered the expensive appellate process (their fault again, they shouldn't have appealed, it was a lost cause.) They tried to fight a battle on multiple fronts, and we all know what happens when you do that. 321 Studio's willingly spent millions of dollars in bringing their initial suit, and with continuing with appeals. They were in the very expensive process of preparing an appeal to the US Supeme Court when Macrovision sued. It was too much for most any company. Eventually they ran out of money and just filed for bankruptcy. They were not shut down at all, they ran themselves into bankruptcy. I admire them for trying to fight big business, but it was not a smart business move. The woke a sleeping giant who, up to that point, had yet to file a major lawsuit against any dvd ripping software manufacturer.

Lastly, the folks in Hollywood will come after sites, like this one, that puts out information to a large volume of people, on how to make DVD backups. This will be last, because, technically, it is a 1st Amendment violation. Freedom of the press, freedom of assembly.

Those are Constitutional guarantees. Since neither "Hollywood" nor the MPAA are government organizations, they mean nothing to them. But as of yet, I haven't found any illegal or infringing information on this site, so hopefully we won't run into any trouble in the future.

The way it is now, ANYONE with a computer and a little bit of reading could back up a DVD in a very short time. They will never snuff out this "pirating" for good, they know that, they just want to curb it to the select few. They just don't want some ******* walking into Best Buy and picking up some software that would copy every DVD and Game in the place.

Exactly. But I personally don't think you can blame them for that. IF copying a commercial DVD is illegal, I'd hope that people couldn't make money off of software that allows you to accomplish this.

I have to disagree with you about games though. Games are considered "computer software," and US Copyright law expressly allows you to make copies of them. There is nothing illegal about copying a game that you buy, and there are hundreds of cases saying just that.

Thus, copying your DVD's, and games, is illegal, as you'd have to use illegal software to do it. There is the rub. It may be perfectly legal to have backed up copies of your DVD's. Congress has been skirting that issue. But, if you have to use illegal software to backup the DVD, you are obviously doing something against the "law". Now, if you could backup your DVD without using the software, Congress would have to make a ruling whether or not owning backups is illegal.

No no, that whole catch-22 argument is just a misconception. I've seen it talked about so many times and in the past I thought that was the way it was as well, until I actually read all of the DMCA. Just read my earlier posts in this thread, I specifically explained why this catch-22 doesn't exist. The DMCA expressly says that it doesn't apply to Fair Use rights. If backing up a DVD is legal it would only be under Fair Use. IF backing up a DVD is considered Fair Use then the DMCA does not apply to it whatsoever. The tools are not illegal and the copying of the disk is neither a violation of DMCA nor the respective copyright.

The only question is whether copying a DVD is Fair Use or not. This is the real question, and the one that everyone seems to ignore. There simply has not been any answer on this yet. This is the ONLY thing that really matters. There's no conflict between the laws at all.

[adam]

double post.

[ktsamis]

When I tried to make a copy one of my daughters favorite VHS tapes to DVD, it kept going to to black every 10 seconds. How do you get around this?

[adam]

ktsamis please start a new thread for questions like that. To answer your question, its probably Macrovision protection. There are various ways of bypassing it but you'll have to check your country's laws because doing so is illegal in some places, like the US.

[bugster]

When I tried to make a copy one of my daughters favorite VHS tapes to DVD, it kept going to to black every 10 seconds. How do you get around this?

You post your own question (or even read a few guides!) instead of hijacking a thread on a completley different subject!