Black Levels and DVD from DV?

[gwoiler]

Over the last few years there has been a fair amount of dialog about Setup levels---black levels when editing DV footage. If I remember correctly, consumer DV black levels are 0 IRE. Professional VTR's play it analog out with 7.5 IRE added so it is right for NTSC. Pro cameras can record the video with the 7.5 setup. My vx2000 does it at 0 IRE.

The problem I am wonderring about is, what is happenning when I make a DVD from DV? I am noticing that when I play DVD's, the video looks very contrasty. Should I adjust the contrast in the video before encoding the mpg2 files? If raising the black levels is not done right, your video ends up looking washed out.

Older videos I have made, that originated from Hi-8 or Betacam had the setup levels at 7.5 IRE, so the DV masters are at that level too. And they look right on DVD Sooo, is anyone paying attention to this or is this just a mute issue?

Glenn Woiler

[BJ_M]

its just a big muck up (really)

[tonsofpcs]

Let's just move to Japan or use NTSC M so that everything is at 0 IRE and we needn't worry about this crap.

[gwoiler]

Well, I live in the upper 48, and still use analog T.V.'s so, I want "my" video to look it's best when clients play it back on their ANALOG T.V.'s.

Glenn Woiler

[BJ_M]

isnt that the lower 48?

[gwoiler]

whateva...

I guess I need to hunt for a forum where the participants are a bit more professional.

[BJ_M]

its a tough question to answer correctly -- prob. why not a lot of responses .. depends on the software and camera and encoders used

clamping everything to 7.5 is not correct - as some setups are already clamped ..

the proper way is to check with a scope and adjust all trims (captures) to correct levels ..

[andie41]

Black levels can be quite tricky. It took me quite some time to get things sorted out. In the end, I had to set up my hardware waveform monitor to finally see what was going on with my system.

As BJ_M stated, you really need to use scopes - software and, if available, hardware. Otherwise you are just guessing and may do as well simply adjusting the final DVD display on your TV by adjusting the brightness and contrast of the TV.

My Digital 8 camera outputs my HI 8 video to DV with a black level at 7.5 IRE. If I want to output back to tape, this 7.5 is fine; however, as I mostly am making DVD's and my DVD players add 7.5, I need to move the black level to 0 IRE or my blacks will be gray. Also, often my video has problems that I wish to correct -color balance, contrast, etc, and I need to know where my black level is or I could possibly end up with black at 15 IRE or more.

I transfer my video to the computer, build my movie in an NLE such as Vegas Video, make corrections, etc., get black levels to 0 IRE, then I need to be aware of what the MPEG encoder is going to do with the video. From my experience, all the encoders are similar in that they have settings to expand and/or compress the color/luma. I am more familiar with TMPGenc and it has the infamous "Output YUV data as Basic YCbCr not CCIR601." Procoder and Mainconcept have similar settings - different names.

If I save my corrected movie as DV and load this DV into TMPGenc, the color and luma values will be retained by leaving the "Output YUV data as Basic YCbCr not CCIR601" box unckecked. If I frameserve uncompressed RGB to TMPGenc and leave this box unchecked, my luma values will be compressed (from 0 - 100 IRE to around 7.5 - 92 IRE; then when played in my DVD player, my blacks are going to be moved up to 15 IRE and I have lost detail at the upper values. So when frameserving, I must select this "Output YUV data as Basic YCbCr not CCIR601" box and TMPGenc will then not compress the luma range and the luma will be as I intended - 0 - 100 IRE and my DVD player then adds 7.5.

Again, without scopes your task is daunting, to say the least - so many variables - source video, DV codecs, color and brightness adjustments, mpeg encoder settings and finally the intended display device.

Good luck.

[gwoiler]

Thank you!

I knew there were some intelligent people on this forum.

I get everything you said so, then... how can I know if a DVD player will add the setup (7.5) or not? I just bought a Sanyo at Walmart and I was perfectly happy with it until it could not play back a DVD with half rez (352x240) mpg2. That is another story. But I usually know what all my source files are. These days they are all DV from a vx 2000. (0 setup) Seems everyone I know or do work for has one. A few years ago I did a project that was shot on a Sony (something 300-3 1/2"chip) and it was all at 7.5 IRE setup. I do have a vector scope and waveform monitor and only use the software versions with my editor these days.

Is there a listing anywhere that shows what DVD players are going to do with 0 setup DVD's? Or can they tell the difference? So if I check CCIR601, it will add the setup? I will check the output of my player and see what is going on. I guess I want to "know" that DVD's that I send out will be playing the same on all players. I guess this is a stupid question, but what is the setup level on professionally replicated Holywood movies?

Hey, thanks again for your time,

Glenn Woiler

[BJ_M]

7.5 IRE

[andie41]

how can I know if a DVD player will add the setup (7.5) or not?

It is my perception that most, if not all, DVD players made for North America, include "setup." I struggled with this for quite some time; seems as though I have been out on the floor dancing alone. I have posted several times with questions, comments and then my conclusions. To this point I have yet to see any posts confirming my observations. I have had suggestions that my DVD players are perhaps defective. This website helped get me started: http://www.signvideo.com/dv-black-levels-dvd-authoring-mpeg-2-part-1.htm
The way I finally resolved this question for myself, was to setup my waveform monitor and look at the output from the NLE on the computer through my camera and then make a DVD from this video and look at the output from my DVD players to the waveform monitor.

what is the setup level on professionally replicated Holywood movies?

This is where it all came together for me. Reading on the internet, the DV spec is 0 IRE blacks - of course, most of the world uses 0 IRE, so all that is required is the player to add the 7.5 setup for North America. I confirmed this with commercial DVD's from my DVD player to the WFM and the black is at 7.5 IRE. When I take some commercial DVD's video into my computer, the black level is 0 IRE.

I guess I want to "know" that DVD's that I send out will be playing the same on all players.

I am not doing this professionally, only a hobby, but I want to make DVD's for friends and family and know that they are produced to spec, to the best of my ability. If their TV's are not set properly, I can't control that, only my efforts.
Hope this helps ...

[andie41]

After my previous post, I realized I had not addressed your question RE selecting CCIR601; then I noticed that BJ_M has replied RE your question on commercial DVD's - 7.5 IRE. This is not what I have observed.

As you have a WFM, I suggest you do a series of small tests, with and without the CCIR601. Also, check a commercial DVD for black level - let me know what you find.

There have been many previous discussions RE this "Output YUV as Basic ...", and I got bogged down and confused with all the numbers and jargon flying around - 0 IRE, 0 RGB, 16 RGB= 0 IRE, computer RGB, Studio RGB, etc. Finally I conducted many tests using a variety of parameters and checked them with software WFM and my hardware WFM, burned to DVD and checked again. I believe I have found a successful method for my videos. As you have a hardware WFM, you're laughing ...

[gwoiler]

Thanks again. This forum is starting to shine.

Back around 1997, I got my first NLE: a DPS Perception, which is analog in. It had no file limits and was what I needed. You had complete control over all parameters during capture. Black levels were always at 7.5 unless you had to fix something that was really out. Then, with DV, I noticed that if I was digitizing analog, I had 2 options: there were 2 positions for a button having to do with black level. But it seemed to work backwords from the way it was labeled. So, I did not set it in the position that made everything look gray. DV looks great, but I realized that it was at 0 IRE. When down in Colombia teaching NLE editing, we went to the local TV station that would broadcast the shows that would be aired, and we tested some of our footage on their DVCAM deck. The waveform showed 7.5 setup. I was afraid we would have to tweak everything and it would look washed out. And... yeah, I have had my fits with black levels too. I will have to check the DVD player when I get home. I work 3 days a week in a studio up in the mountains of Idaho and live in Washington! Life is fun!

glenn

[MacHound1]

This thread has been an interesting synopsis of the present tangled state of affairs. I would like to take the IRE question to the next level: what about the future? As we move forward into the digital era, what will be the best way to archive video footage: 7.5 or 0 IRE?

Someday soon we will have all forgotten the limitations of vacuum tubes and composite video that led to the divergence of standards. Perhaps, in this context, archiving video at 0 IRE would make the most sense.

I wish I had a crystal ball to know which standard will ultimately be adopted in the U.S. so I can share today's family videos wih our great grandchildren. Certainly history has not shown our nation to be open to standards changes. Consider the 1970's debacle when Jimmy Carter tried to move the U.S. to the metric system. Still, a day will come someday when the rationale for sticking with 7.5 IRE-boosted video will be totally obsolete.

Does anyone know whether there is a movement afoot to get rid of the IRE 7.5 video "standard"? It would simplify the process of making TVs and videos for everyone.

[MacHound1]

(duplicate message removed)

[adam]

The reason this stuff is so confusing is because everyone uses the wrong terminology Setup itself is NOT your problem. Its not something you should or even can account for. It either happens or it doesn't depending on the capabilites of your hardware. Setup simply refers to the difference in digital to analogue measurements in various countries.

"Add Setup" is really a misnomer. Players don't add setup, they simply convert your digital signal to an analogue one. On a DVD your luminence range is represented by a scale of 16-235, with 16 being the blackest and 235 being the whitest. These are digital measurements, and ALL DVDs use this scale because it is required by CCIR601 (standard governing NTSC, PAL and Secam). Regardless of where you live or what your hardware does, you always are going to store your luminence values as 16-235 because that is all that is allowed. Again this is simply a digital measurement.

Take that DVD and play it on a PAL DVD player and that digital 16 will simply equal 0 IRE on that analogue scale.

Now take that DVD and play it on an NTSC DVD player and that digital 16 measurement simply equals 7.5IRE on the analogue scale. This is because typical NTSC hardware does not support as broad a luminence range as PAL equipment. Your luminence ranges are just more limited when being played on NTSC equipment and short of using different hardware, there is nothing you can do about this. This is referred to as setup.

Think of it like currency. Your 4 American quarters might translate to more or less "buying power" when converted to another country's currency. Its still the same amount of money though.

Now SOME NTSC monitors can support 0 IRE. If you have one of these then you can take advantage of the fact that SOME dvd players have an OPTION which will output what is often called super or enhanced black. All this means is that the player essentially adjusts its scale and assumes that 16 does in fact equal 0 IRE, just like it would on PAL hardware. If all your hardware supports 0 IRE, then you have just increased your luminence ranges...but again the physical DVD is the same regardless. So like I said, there is nothing you can do in your encode to deal with setup. It is completely dictated by your hardware.

Now just because you don't have to worry about setup doesn't mean you are in the clear. There is still that little thing called CCIR601 that I mentioned. It is a broadcasting standard which, among other things, requires that there be headroom and footroom in the signal. Out of 0-255, only 16-235 are allowed to carry luminence information. The problem is that most camcorders, including DV, film without adding any headroom or footroom. So at some point before or during encoding you are going to have to compress your luminence ranges to 16-235, and that's where the problems come in. If you aren't careful you will hard clip anything beyond these legal ranges, which results in that contrasty look. You also might accidentally overcompensate and compress your ranges too much...picture black looking more like grey. So how do you ensure everything works out? Its a matter of preference.

See, even though DV will usually use the full 0-255 range, almost all DV codecs "convert" this to 16-235. I say "convert" because some correctly compress the scale while others hard clip it (bad.) So the first step is researching your codec and what it is doing. You can let it compress to 16-235 if you want, and then all you need to do is ensure that your encoder doesn't further compress it. This is typically done by setting the range to 0-255. (it sounds backward but all this does is just keep it the same.) But then the problem with this method is that you will be viewing your source with luminence levels compressed, on a monitor which supports the full 0-255 range. It is like flying blind. Its hard to correct colors and levels because it won't look the same when you output to tv. That's what ntsc monitors are for.

Then there are those who don't trust any codec to correct their levels. They prefer to use scopes and do it manually to preserve all of those super blacks and whites. Again, without an NTSC monitor though, there's no way to know what it will look like when played on an NTSC tv, so you are doing blind editing.

Since I have no NTSC monitor, my personal method is to set my DV codec to NOT compress to 16-235. Thus when I edit, it is in the 0-255 range and the colors are correct to my eyes and my adjustments are therefore meaningful, even though its still going to look slightly different on the tv. I then compress to 16-235 in my encoder as I output to mpg.

So you see there are several different ways of getting to 16-235 and to do it exactly its more art then science. But the truth is that most DV codecs handle the conversion to 16-235 well enough, and as long as you don't have the encoder set to 16-235, your output should be correct.

[MacHound1]

> The reason this stuff is so confusing is because everyone uses the wrong terminology.

No, the reason this stuff is so confusing is because it's confusing.

As we move forward toward HD, why drag all this historic flotsam along with us? What was once expedient in the 1950's has now become a major headache, both for equipment manufacturers and for everyone else doing video work, especially where computers are interfacing with TVs.

> So like I said, there is nothing you can do in your encode to deal with setup. It is completely dictated by your hardware.

Not so. My Canopus ADVC-300, like several other DV converters, has a switch for 0 IRE or 7.5 IRE. That is a decision I must make BEFORE I start my DV encode, and it's where the headaches begin. Which IRE level I choose during A-to-D translation is a significant variable in the results I get from that point onward.

There just doesn't seem to be any rational justification I can see for carrying Setup into the new century, with present digital TV capabilities far exceeding the meager limitations of 1950's era equipment. As you say, some NTSC monitors now support 0 IRE. Why not ditch Setup and use 0 IRE for all displays? The PAL world seems to be far ahead in this regard.

[adam]

No, the reason this stuff is so confusing is because it's confusing.

Well that of course is your opinion but I still think you are only confused because you still are using the wrong terminology. Again, setup is irrellevant when converting DV to DVD or any other digital format. DV is digital. Its 1's and 0's. When you transfer it to your computer it stays the same until you decode it. Setup only occurs when digital information is converted to analogue. When you convert DV to DVD, it doesn't become analogue until you actually play the DVD on your dvd player. Again, there's nothing you can do during preprocessing or encoding, setup either happens or it doesn't during playback, and its entirely dependant upon your hardware.

Not so. My Canopus ADVC-300, like several other DV converters, has a switch for 0 IRE or 7.5 IRE. That is a decision I must make BEFORE I start my DV encode.

No it isn't. Once again, IRE is an ANALOGUE measurement. Unless you are converting to analogue then the IRE that your camcorder is set to means nothing. The 0 or 7.5 IRE setting on a camcorder is for when you hook the camcorder up to the tv and play it off of there. If you are in a PAL region or have an NTSC monitor which supports 0 IRE you'd set the camcorder accordingly. Otherwise you'd have to tell it output at 7.5 IRE otherwise the colors would be incorrect. On most lower end camcorders that don't have this option, the colors are always incorrect when viewed directly from the camcorder.

IRE means absolutely nothing in the digital realm. Regardless of what you have your camcorder's IRE set to it will come out the same on the pc. From here, yes you need to properly set your levels to comply with CCIR601 and that is problematic and can be confusing. THAT is the problem everyone is experiencing and it has to do with properly compressing your DIGITAL luminence scale to 16-235 to comply with the CCIR601 standard. All I'm saying is that this is an issue completely separate from setup and IRE measurements. Again, I'm just trying to clarify the terminology since it seems many people use these terms interchangeably.

There just doesn't seem to be any rational justification I can see for carrying Setup into the new century, with present digital TV capabilities far exceeding the meager limitations of 1950's era equipment. As you say, some NTSC monitors now support 0 IRE. Why not ditch Setup and use 0 IRE for all displays? The PAL world seems to be far ahead in this regard.

Yes some NTSC monitors can support 0 IRE, but the vast majority of NTSC hardware cannot properly display 0 IRE. Its not a 1950's problem, most hardware manufactured today probably still cannot do it. Its hard to phase out the majority of tv's in America. A recommendation was written into CCIR601 to switch all regional formats to 0 IRE I don't know how many years ago. Yes its good in theory, but these types of transitions take time. I agree NTSC sucks, but that doesn't mean you can just ignore its limitations. They still exist.

But since you now know this, you are free to avoid the problem yourself. Ensure that the next tv you purchase supports 0 IRE and also make sure your DVD player has an enhanced black output option. There ya go, you have effectively eliminated setup from your entire system. Either way, it has absolutely no effect on how the DVDs are produced. The same goes for HD-DVD or whatever the future holds for us. Setup is a function of the hardware playing the disks, not the disks itself. So just make wise purchases.

[BJ_M]

thanks adam for the in-depth post -- my short answer was the same but i got jumped all over even though i knew i was right

but your explanation should help to clear the air so to speak ...



a side note -- in japan , ntsc is 0 , in theory.

[andie41]

I am not going very far down this road again - I got sidetracked and bogged down, and totally confused with all this "stuff" previously and had to just get back to the practical side of things- how to get my dvd's the way I wanted them.

I agree that if you are simply taking DV video and encode to mpeg and burn to DVD, you are probably going to be okay. Perhaps "setup" is a misnomer, perhaps it is urban legend, but it is part of the NTSC landscape - right or wrong. Programs such as Vegas Video include settings to indicate if your device uses setup or not. But let's drop the term; what I am concerned about is what my video will look like when played on my DVD player.- nothing more or less.

The fact is, for me and my setup (sorry),I must allow for the fact that the analog video coming out of my DVD player will be 7.5% brighter than if played through my camera. I don't know technically how this occurs, whether it is adding "setup" or not, but if I don't allow for it, my video will be flat and blacks gray.

In my previous post, I tried to stay with IRE, because my main concern is analog video and I got confused previously going round and round and back and forth talking about IRE and RGB. If I have RGB values on my computer of 32-32-32 (and this is approximately where the blacks are from my converted HI8 tapes) and encode this to an mpeg encoder, such as TMPGenc, burn to DVD and play in my DVD player, the blacks look flat and gray - and they are. When I send this to my WFM, the black level shows 15 IRE.

So how would one have DV video with blacks at 32-32-32? In my case, it comes from converting Hi8 tapes to DV. If this is just played from tape, from the camera, it is fine - 7.5 IRE. Also, one could inadvertently change the blacks values when attempting to correct and/or enhance the video, which I do regularly.

It is true that the encoders with the proper setting,will bring the values back to spec - more or less. But I think I can do a better job and want to make corrections and have the encoder just pass along my settings. In the case of TNPGenc and its "Output YUV as Basic ...", it will take my aforemetioned 32-32-32 RGB and bring it down to 16-16-16 and when played in my DVD player, the black will now be 7.5 IRE. However, in doing this, it also expands the highlights, and will likely result in clipped highlights. Also it mucks around with the color values, which can be observed on my vectorscope and from a still copied into photoshop. - perhaps not alot,probably not very noticeable unless one is looking very closely, but as I said in another post, this is a hobby and I enjoy tweaking and trying to make my video better.

I do have an NTSC monitor (don't even own a TV), and I use this external NtSC monitor, to keep tabs on my progress in my NLE. If I simply output from the timeline to the monitor as my guide and encode and burn, my DVD's will be "overexposed" - how about that instead of setup. To get a true representation of what my final DVD will look like, I temporarily use a filter, such as levels, to raise my black level by 7.5%, then I can get a good visual representaion. I then use another filter to bring the blacks down to 7.5 IRE on my WFM. Then, before encoding, I remove the temporary filter. The black now shows 0 IRE and looks dark on my external monitor, but my DVD will now look good and, according to my WFM, have the right specs.

[MacHound1]

Not so. My Canopus ADVC-300, like several other DV converters, has a switch for 0 IRE or 7.5 IRE. That is a decision I must make BEFORE I start my DV encode.

No it isn't. Once again, IRE is an ANALOGUE measurement. Unless you are converting to analogue then the IRE that your camcorder is set to means nothing. The 0 or 7.5 IRE setting on a camcorder is for when you hook the camcorder up to the tv and play it off of there. If you are in a PAL region or have an NTSC monitor which supports 0 IRE you'd set the camcorder accordingly. Otherwise you'd have to tell it output at 7.5 IRE otherwise the colors would be incorrect. On most lower end camcorders that don't have this option, the colors are always incorrect when viewed directly from the camcorder.

IRE means absolutely nothing in the digital realm. Regardless of what you have your camcorder's IRE set to it will come out the same on the pc.

Not to be argumentative, but we seem to be talking past each other. I'm not talking about IRE of my camcorder or about converting DV to DVD. The issue is IRE levels at the time of DV capture.

I just captured a brief clip from a VHS tape twice, once from my Canopus ADVC-300 with the Setup switch on (7.5 IRE) and once with it off (0 IRE). Playing these otherwise identical clips back frame-by-frame and side-by-side shows that the 7.5 IRE clip is significantly darker than the 0 IRE clip.

This gets to the heart of the question, which is: What IRE level is most appropriate for me to be capturing video at today if the goal is to archive footage for replay in the distant future?

I am asking people to read their tea leaves and predict what's likely to happen when digital TV is mainstream and NTSC is a footnote in the history books. At some point, when CRT tubes are as uncommon as rotary telephones, Setup would seem to become unnecessary. Or is this just wishful thinking?

I'm looking for opinions here, not facts.

[adam]

I agree that if you are simply taking DV video and encode to mpeg and burn to DVD, you are probably going to be okay. Perhaps "setup" is a misnomer, perhaps it is urban legend, but it is part of the NTSC landscape - right or wrong. Programs such as Vegas Video include settings to indicate if your device uses setup or not. But let's drop the term; what I am concerned about is what my video will look like when played on my DVD player.- nothing more or less.

And with this statement it is clear that we are both on the exact same page. I'm just trying to call a spade a spade and get people to realize that they can't fight setup, or really do anything about it. Now your luminence levels themselves, THAT is what we all have to concentrate on. I'm also not suggesting that we should just convert to DVD and assume our levels were compressed accordingly. Yes we need to monitor them and adjust them accordingly, again I'm just saying that this is something completely removed from the concept of setup. There are two things limiting our luminence levels in America. First the CCIR601 standard, and then setup limits it further. I'm just trying to get people to realize that they aren't one and the same.

The fact is, for me and my setup (sorry),I must allow for the fact that the analog video coming out of my DVD player will be 7.5% brighter than if played through my camera.

And I think this is why you are largely correct in ignoring strict "rules" regarding luminence values. The picture being sent from your camcorder is wrong. The data itself is perfectly fine, but the outher luminence levels are being lost during playback. When played from your DVD player, assuming your levels are correct, it will be correct. Yes it will be brighter, its supposed to be. Now perhaps you prefer the darker picture you see from your camcorder, and if you want to shoot for this "luminence look" in your encode that is of course fine. Just realize that what the camcorder plays on the tv is NOT what it recorded. If you understand this then you truly can completely ignore setup when transferring DV and simply adjust the brightness according to taste.

[Steve Stepoway]

I just captured a brief clip from a VHS tape twice, once from my Canopus ADVC-300 with the Setup switch on (7.5 IRE) and once with it off (0 IRE). Playing these otherwise identical clips back frame-by-frame and side-by-side shows that the 7.5 IRE clip is significantly darker than the 0 IRE clip.

MacHound1, this makes sense (to the extent that anything having to do with analog video does) if you consider the switches to be labeled "Treat the incoming analog video to have black at 7.5 IRE" and as "Treat the incoming analog video to have black at 0 IRE". Capturing from a VCR (NTSC world), the incoming analog video will have black at 7.5 IRE. If the switch is set to 7.5, then what's supposed to be black is digitized as black (is it 0 or 16? apparently 0). The same capture, with the switch set to 0, appears brighter, since the ADVC-300 never sees pixels (analog image signal, of course) that it thinks should be black. If it were me, I would capture at the 7.5 setting, if the source is indeed a 7.5 source (i.e. preserve the signal as far as is possible).

[adam]

I didn't have time to reply to both posts, but I think Steve Stepoway might have answered your question MacHound1, but I'm not positive.

Well MacHound1 this is the first time you mentioned you were using your DV camcorder as a pass through device. This may change things, honestly I don't know since I never do pass through recording. Since VHS is analogue and therefore your source is experiencing step up at playback, you wouldn't want to digitize it as if it were being played at 0 IRE, only to play it back 7.5 IRE's higher. If this is what is happening, then I agree with Steve Stepoway. You should set the camcorder to 7.5 IRE when capturing NTSC footage.

However, I'm not convinced this is correct, and you will have to clarify for us by telling us exactly what you did. My understanding is that the 0 IRE or 7.5 IRE setting on a DV camcorder is solely for determining the black level for analogue OUT. I don't believe it should have any effect whatsoever on your capture even when capturing from an analogue source like VHS. So here is my question.

I know you recorded footage once with the 0 IRE setting enabled, and once with the 7.5 IRE enabled. But how did you play these back? Did you hook it up to the tv? If so, did you play it back at the same IRE level, or did you play the 0 IRE capture at 0 IRE and the 7.5 capture at 7.5 IRE? If you don't play them back at the same IRE level then obviously one is going to be darker than the other.

In any case, I think you can understand the my inability to properly answer your previous questions in this thread. Up until now it seemed we were all talking about simple DV captures of live footage. This is digital, and thus like I said, setup is irrellevant. Since you are now talking about analogue sources, well then yes setup is relevant.

[andie41]

In those immortal words of the "Captain" (Strother Martin), "what we've got here, is a failure to communicate."

Adam, as I read your comments Re my last post, I thought, finally we are in agreement - and then I cam to the end:

The picture being sent from your camcorder is wrong

Say what? If I send my video (remember it is HI8 analog) directly from my camera to the WFM, the WFM shows 7.5 IRE. If I capture this video, either through an analog capture card or have the camera convert to DV and transfer by firewire, and then encode these captures to mpeg and burn DVD (without adjustments) and play in my DVD player, analog out to WFM, the IRE is 15. This is correct?

[adam]

Again with the analogue sources

Sorry, no I missed where you said you were using Hi8 analogue tapes. I thought you were using Digital8 tapes. Since you have an analgoue source, yes you have to account for setup. I also see that the original poster is also using some analogue sources. I apologize for missing this. Everything I posted was in regards to sources originating as DV, not analogue sources encoded to DV. I was talking about going from DV to DVD, as the subject of the thread says.

VHS and Hi8 aren't DV. What I said does not apply to them. The fact that you convert to DV when you digitize it doesn't really matter, its still an analogue source. Its completely different. But this was all my mistake for not reading the thread clearly enough. So again, I apologize. If you are filming with a DV camcorder, then you can ignore setup. Otherwise, just ignore me.

[BSR]

I just bought a Sanyo at Walmart and I was perfectly happy with it until it could not play back a DVD with half rez (352x240) mpg2.

You mean half rez is 352x480 for Mpg2, correct?

[andie41]

Whew! Thanks, Adam.

[MacHound1]

I didn't have time to reply to both posts, but I think Steve Stepoway might have answered your question MacHound1, but I'm not positive.

Well MacHound1 this is the first time you mentioned you were using your DV camcorder as a pass through device.

Actually, Steve explained the Setup / IRE situation more clearly than I have seen anywhere else. Please give Steve a gold star. This issue has caused mass confusion over at the Canopus forums.

Steve, may I have permission to quote your post at the Canopus forums? I could paraphrase, but you said it best.

Adam, if you reread my previous post you may notice I had neither a DV camcorder nor an analog camcorder attached at the time of my 7.5 IRE versus 0 IRE captures. The captures were from a VHS player, with my Canopus ADVC-300 doing the A-to-D conversion. Ordinarily I would do captures from an 8 mm analog camcorder, which as Steve explained so well, produces 7.5 IRE video. If I keep my ADVC-300 at the 7.5 IRE switch position, everything should be just fine.

Does anyone care to take a stab at the question about the future of Setup? Are we forever destined to being stuck dealing with Setup issues because of a technical compromise made decades ago?

[gwoiler]

I just captured a brief clip from a VHS tape twice, once from my Canopus ADVC-300 with the Setup switch on (7.5 IRE) and once with it off (0 IRE). Playing these otherwise identical clips back frame-by-frame and side-by-side shows that the 7.5 IRE clip is significantly darker than the 0 IRE clip.

This is starting to make sense to me too. On my DVStorm, it makes sense that he button that says 7.5 IRE is actually meaning what the source is, not that it is adding anything. (It used to confuse me) The 0 IRE button is actually raising the shelf up 7.5 IRE. Me personally, I can not think of any time I have ever had analog footage from Hi-8, VHS, SVHS, or Beta-cam, MII... that did not have a setup level of 7.5 IRE.

My dilema in the beginning of this thread, was making sure my DVD's played correctly. I am not convinced yet that all DVD players take 0-255 and output it as 16-235. I know all my footage I edit is 0-255 DV. I know my DV VTR adds setup (7.5 IRE) on the composite output when I make vhs dubs. So, I just need to use the right setting in TMPG when encoding. Problem is, that... some video looks better extra contrasty! (kidding)

My DVD player does not have any settings for black level. And I don't think all players are all perfectly DVD compliant. If they were, then... they would ALL play ALL disks and not have such a compatability problem. DVD's that I know were edited from NTSC Betacam with 7.5 IRE look good and natural from DVD. But my DV sourced DVD's have more contrast than they would played back from a vhs tape.

Tomorrow I will get out the waveform monitor and do some testing.

And the future of SETUP??? well... I think as we move to Digital transmission, there will no longer be a need for 7.5 IRE setup.

Glenn Woiler