VHS -> DVD at high res = dvd looks wierd

[sikki_nixx]

Hi all.

In the beginning of my VHS -> DVD conversion career I was capturing at 352*288 (I use PAL) in vdub, encoding with tmpgenc to 720*576, authoring with tmpgenc DVD author and I thought everything looked fine... Then I read & learned about the interlace thing and everything changed....

I'm now capping at 720 * 576, encoding in tmpgenc to 720 * 567 (using template settings for pretty much everything) and I author with tmpgenc dvd author and I burn with Nero.

The DVD looks really good when I play it on my computer, but on the TV with my LG-5193 DVD-player it doesn't look good at all... It's a bit difficult to explain and it only looks bad when there's a lot of motion in the picture... I guess it has to be some kind of interlace issue?

Could it be my DVD-player that cause this? It's a really cheap one so...

Or could any setting in vdub, tmpgenc help? or should I try another authouring and / or burn software? I've also tried capping in 352*576 and creating a 352*576 dvd in tmpgenc... same prob.

Any suggestions are very welcome.

Thanks

/Peter

[Gazorgan]

720x576 in what codec at what bitrate? It makes a Huge difference when capturing.

[The_Doman]

It really sounds like a typical FIELD order problem.

You should try to change that in the advanced settings, and try if it makes a difference.
I think that will fix the problem!

[sikki_nixx]

Hi Gazorgan, thanks for your reply.

I use picvideo MJPEG codec.. compression 20, luminance quality 2 and chrominance quality 3... Someone told me that these settings gave best
quality and I'm very happy with it. Even though I try to not use any compression at all on shorter clips to obain maximum quality.

Hi The_Doman, thanks for your reply.

I'll try changing field order....
What field order would be the correct one? Top (A) or bottom (B)?
Not sure what I've used so far...

//Peter

[The_Doman]

The field order to use depends on different factors, videodriver,codec, tv-standard. Best is to make two small clips to try both settings and look which one works ok.

I also use the Picvideo codec for my tvcard for years, works very well.
Settings i use:
Quality 18 or 19 (20 is almost No compression, I never use that)
L/C quality i never adjusted really, just keeping it default depending on the quality setting.
2 Fields if more then 288 lines (I Use PAL 768x576)
SubSampling 4:2:2

[FulciLives]

It could be you are using too low of a bitrate which would cause compression errors on fast moving scenes (either a fast moving camera movement or a fast moving object within a still shot).

So what bitrate did you use?

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[The_Doman]

I don't think it's a bitrate issue, because he says the DVD looks really good when played on the computer..

[FulciLives]

I don't think it's a bitrate issue, because he says the DVD looks really good when played on the computer..

Well his discription wasn't the best so I was just trying a different angle in an attempt to help. If what he/she is seeing looks like interlaced effects ... on an interlaced TV ... then yeah I guess it would have to be a field order problem.

BTW is that Mr. Do (old arcade game) as your Avatar pic?

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[The_Doman]

Yeah , you are right!
One on the old classics, played it a lot in the good old days...

[FulciLives]

Yeah , you are right!
One on the old classics, played it a lot in the good old days...

I use to LOVE this game. Played it ALL the time at the arcards. I was pissed because there was never a good home version of it (at least that I know of).

There was this "old" fart that used to play the game alot. About 2 or 3 years ago (I'm 32 today) I ran into that SAME guy at a fast food place.

I said, "hey, excuse me, but aren't you the guy that worked at the Monroeville Mall and always played Mr. Do?" ... turned out it was the same guy. We had a nice short chat

Unfortunately the older you get the less and less people you can find that remember the shit you liked as a kid.

I'm sure many reading this have NO clue what the *uck we are talking about hehehe

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[lordsmurf]

@Fulci:
http://www.mrdo.com/mrdo/
http://www.mrdo.com/mrdo/mamemrdo.htm
MAME plays actual arcade software of Mr Do.
I do NOT think this is warez, if it is then mods can delete. It looks like Mr Do is public domain abandonware. The ROM links on that page seem to be dead anyway, and that's the only thing questionable here.

[FulciLives]

Thanks for into LordSmurf

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[sikki_nixx]

Hi, thanks everybody for your replies...

However I'm still having the same problem... I don't think it has anything to do with the field orders as the DVD looks fine on some places and on some places not, even places with lot's of motion looks good sometimes... It makes no sense!!! And god I wish I could describe my problem better!!! ... But I don't think it is a regular interlace problem... There are no vertical lines or anything it's just... choppy... and a bit jumpy... or something like that...

The DVD still looks fine on my computer... I'll see if I can try the disc on another standalone DVD-player and see if it's the same thing...

This is so annoying..........

[sikki_nixx]

I just watched the disc on my TV through TV-out from the computer and it looked just fine.... So I guess it have to be something with my DVD-player??

I'll try to test with another DVD-player however....

[disturbed1]

There are no vertical lines or anything it's just... choppy... and a bit jumpy... or something like that...

The DVD still looks fine on my computer... I'll see if I can try the disc on another standalone DVD-player and see if it's the same thing...

This is so annoying..........

Use ReStream to change the field order. I encoded some top field footage to bottom field once. It had the exact problems as you describe.

The default for most anolouge capture cards is top field first, while some mpeg encoders default to bottom filed first. During motion, it will chop.

On the computer, the software player will perform a bob and/or weave deinterlace. You won't see the chops. Since you're using a software player to output to the TV, it won't be seen there either.

[sikki_nixx]

Hi disturbed1, thanks for your reply.

I'll try that program, but I don't think it has anything to do with the field order, as some places on the dvd with lot's of motion looks good, and other places with no motion at all looks choppy.... and vice versa...

Also I'm quite sure I choosed top field when I encoded the file with tmpgenc...

In ReStream the "top field first" was ticked by default.... Maybe it always is?? I'll see if the new file made by restream looks different on the TV...

[The_Doman]

You cannot really be sure which field order you must use without testing it.

Just make two short testclips with different field settings and see if there's a difference !!

[FulciLives]

I just watched the disc on my TV through TV-out from the computer and it looked just fine.... So I guess it have to be something with my DVD-player??

I'll try to test with another DVD-player however....

Good luck let us know how it goes!

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[sikki_nixx]

Well, I've been trying everything now, both fiels and even with another author & burn software.... when I encoded field B it looked like hell, field A looked like before... Still haven't been able to test it in another DVD-player though.... but I don't care really for the moment as I want my discs to work on MY DVD-player....

Another thought crossed my mind....

I'd like to know more about deinterlacing. Would it be an option to
deinterlace the captured AVI in vdub and then encode and burn? How much quality would I loose? Interlacing must be my problem as I didn't have these problems when I was capturing in 352 * 288...

[disturbed1]

Deinterlacing usually degrades the picture quality. Causes a slight loss of detail.

Avisynth has great plugins that minimize the quality loss. But you can try TMPG's internal deinterlacer as well as Virtual Dubs.

[sikki_nixx]

Ok thank you disturbed1.... do you know the name of a particulary good plugin for avisynth? I've searched on the internet and it seems to be alot of them... in vdub I've only tried the "deinterlace" filter that came with it... haven't had time to see the results yet...

[SatStorm]

It seems that you sharpen somehow to much the picture, so you have field distortion on fast scenes...

In practice, you have 2 solutions: Resize your source at 352 x 576 (without use sharpen filters) and encode to 1/2 D1 or blur a bit your picture and encode to full D1 as you do now...

A more advance solution, is to use "Pal Frame Restore" filter, before sharpen it. Virtualdub that is, I don't know about avisynth.

[sikki_nixx]

Hi Satstorm, thanks for your reply.

I solved the problem by de-interlacing in vdub and the result was good,
but as de-interlacing reduces the quality (I guess) it would be nice if I could solve my problem in another way.... I'll try to capture at 352*576 next time and encode to half d1 and see how it goes... Seems like my DVD+rw disc doesn't work anymore so I'd better get a new one hehe....

[SatStorm]

de-interlace isn't the solution, unfortunatelly...

I believe that you sharp a lot your source somehow... Maybe you use a filter?
If you sharp a lot a picture, from a point and beyond you have a field distortion on fast movements...

[sikki_nixx]

Hi satstorm.

Well I've tried to capture in 352*576 and encode to half d1, I'm still having the same problem. SOME fast scenes on the disc looks good,
and some other fast scenes are choppy... Some slow scenes also looks
choppy while other slow scenes looks good... That's what makes no sense!!

I've tried both field orders when I encode in tmpgenc.

If I de-interlace in tmpgenc I'm not having this problem.

I'm not using any filters at all... Should I?

I'm going crazy over this problem and considering buying a DVD-recorder instead....

//Peter

[SatStorm]

Hmmm....
It is a really wierd thing that you got... Sometimes it happens when you encode with mainconcept, but this is a compatibility issue most...
By the way, which card you use to capture and which drivers?

Also try this:

On the device settings of your capture card, there is an option. You can found it as "Video Proc Amp" on Virtualvcr and it is also present in the capture mode of virtualdub on the "Video source" tab > device settings.

This option allow you to adjust the Brightness, Contrast, Hue, Saturation, white balance, Gamma and Backlight comp adjustments, also the "sharpness" value of your card.
By default, this option is set on "50" from a possible of 81.

Some drivers, allows the adjustment of this setting.
You have to play a bit with this to see if you have different results after the encoding.

Sometimes, there is a tick there, "auto", which is enable and when you first visit this option, you can not adjust it. But when you untick the "auto" near to "sharpness", it became adjustable.

Set this "sharpness" to various values if possible, encode to mpeg 2 and see if that does any difference.

Start low from 20 and rise to 30, 40 and so on...

[sikki_nixx]

Hi again Satstorm, thank you for your reply.

I have a hauppauge win-tv pvr. I use hauppauges own drivers, I've heard many people have problem to use virtualdub with those drivers but I haven't had any trouble (well haven't had any trouble BEFORE) and I've had this card on three different computers.

I only get the Brightness, Contrast, Saturation and Hue settings of my card in vdub. No sharpness or anything like that... Do you think it would be worth to try using other drivers for the card?

I'm really thinking of buying a dvd recorder and throwing these problems away.... It would be sad because I use to enjoy capturing videos very much.... Now I'm just tired of it........

//Peter

[SatStorm]

Yes, it is definatelly something with the drivers...
It's a great mess, honestly I can't help you more on this. Try to find better drivers than the ones you use, if you can of course.

And yes, a standalone DVD Recorder is a great alternative, for fast and dirty VHS convertions. But don't expect 4 hours per disc that way, neither advance menus. PC has flexibility, that's for sure...

[sikki_nixx]

Ok, well I've found other drivers specially for this card that some people use that can't even open capture mode in vdub with the drivers that came with the card... I'll try these and see what happens.

I was thinking of using a dvd recorder to just record the video to DVD's... then edit the video and finally author & burn on PC anyway.... but as DVD-recorders are getting cheaper and better everyday I wanna wait as long as possible...

I really hope this will work better with alternate drivers.

Thanks for all your help.

[reckless67]

I was having the exact same problem as you sikki_nixx, so when I read your post I read about the field order thing. I was capturing from my dss in Main Concept, and for some reason under "Fields", "Lower Fields First [DV]" was selected. So I changed it and captured some more video, then burnt it using DVD Author, and it was perfect.
Not sure if this helps you at all, but thought I would chip in.
Thanks to all the knowledgable people on this forum.