Best DV Codec

[jujube]

i wanna find out which DV codec is the most lasting - rendering several times with less degradation. Canopus? Adaptect? Mainconcept? etc


pls advise

[redwudz]

If you are asking which one is best for transferring DV from a camera or DV source, they are not used. For playback or for re-encoding, there was some discussion about this before. Check the Doom9 website for a comparison.

Edit: The Doom9 discussion:http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=25849233fed591a6137e32706af35f61&threadid=33526

[jujube]

I couldnt find a specifc discussion. Moreover i wanted to find out the guys think

[racer-x]

This is straight from the MainConcept Forums:

http://forum.mainconcept.com/viewtopic.php?t=44
There is a loss of Quality when you create new frames. New frames are created when you use effects (FX) or transitions on a clip. These new frames must be calculated and produced. In this case you have a loss of quality. The visible loss is shown by the cycle ratio. For example, a ratio of 5 means, that you can recompress a DV clip 5 times without a visible loss. Our cycle ratio is higher than the one of the Microsoft DV codec. A pure copy from a DV clip, e.g. from one DV camcorder to your hard disk and back to another DV camcorder will cause no loss.

I'm not buying it though. I prefere to use the Microsoft DV Codec. It is much more compatable with Premiere. I'm not doing multiple renderings though!

[BJ_M]

on a scale of 1 - 5

sony 5
canopus 5
phillips 4.5
mainconcept 4
jvc 4-4.5
main concept in adobe pro 3.75-4
panasonic 3.75 - 4
LG 2.5
microsoft 1

forgot cannon - 5
avid (new one) - 4

[saurabh_fzr]

BJ_M

Canopus, mainconcept etc are there in the tools section, but I was not able to find the Sony codec, where can it be found ?
Or is it there with some other name ?

Is it free ??

Saurabh

[divx2vcd]

Good Question.

I think CANOPUS is the best. I have not seen any kind of Quality Loss
even after more than 5 times re-encoding of the DV to DV.

Colors Remain Orignal. Brightness Remain Brighter.

Happy.

[proxyx99]

BJ_M: interesting. How did you arrive at that? Can you elaborate?

[BJ_M]

BJ_M

Canopus, mainconcept etc are there in the tools section, but I was not able to find the Sony codec, where can it be found ?
Or is it there with some other name ?

Is it free ??

Saurabh

it is in vegas (the one refered to (you cant get it seperate)) , there is also another one in the sony cameras

[BJ_M]

BJ_M: interesting. How did you arrive at that? Can you elaborate?

inhouse testing by our company, personal testing and generally matchs what is reported in many dv and editing forums..

[racer-x]

BJ_M:

Just out of couriosity, how would you rate Matrox DV Codec? That is if you tested it.

[BJ_M]

BJ_M:

Just out of couriosity, how would you rate Matrox DV Codec? That is if you tested it.

never tested it ... how would anyone else rate it ?

[Colmino]

This thread conveniently tackles the latest facet of my overall DV -> DVD research project. Very informative. Particularly in how Microsoft's codec is regarded as the worst. That's the only one I've glimpsed in action so far.

I like the sound of "inhouse testing". Sounds like it's down to Canopus, Sony, or Canon.

One question, though. Are we talking about encoders or decoders? The context of the thread doesn't quite make it clear. I'm personally wondering about the quality of decoders. I don't plan to reencode it back into DV.

Btw, a pretty straightforward test, for anyone who has access to all the codecs (and assuming we're talking about decoders) would be to decode a small DV clip, encode it using your DV encoder of choice, and repeat about ten times. This will amplify whatever shortcomings the various decoders suffer from, and eventually a winner should surface. (Yes, most of the degradation will come from the encoding process, but as long as one uses the same encoder for all cases, it should be a fair comparison.)

[BJ_M]

well its pretty hard to chose which decoder you can use without fubaring quartz.dll (ms decoder for a varity of formats) or playing around with graphedit -- but not really real world decoding (i.e. which decoder your mpeg2 encder would use).

IMO , i dont really believe which decoder is being used (and in almost all cases - its ms) really maters .. though i can't prove it ...

also , many of the codecs i listed are "in-camera" or part of a package (vegas) or part of a transcoder (philips (reported by stream - may not accually be philips)) for example

i forgot to add the apple QT DV codec also to the list ...

[Colmino]

IMO , i dont really believe which decoder is being used (and in almost all cases - its ms) .. though i can't prove it ...

I'm not positive, but it sounds like you're saying it doesn't seem to matter which codec does the decoding. That'd be fine with me. Though for purposes of filters and whatnot, I'll probably want to hunt down the Sony, Canopus or Canon codec for reencoding DV. (Whichever of those three turns out to be the best; still researching.)

[andie41]

BJ_M wrote:

IMO , i dont really believe which decoder is being used (and in almost all cases - its ms) .. though i can't prove it

VirtualDub's File Information indicate's which decompressor it is using (or thinks it is using). Is this not reliable? It certainly changes, depending on the codec I make active.

[BJ_M]

BJ_M wrote:

IMO , i dont really believe which decoder is being used (and in almost all cases - its ms) .. though i can't prove it

VirtualDub's File Information indicate's which decompressor it is using (or thinks it is using). Is this not reliable? It certainly changes, depending on the codec I make active.

i meant "IMO , i dont really believe which decoder is being used really maters"

and just because v-dub uses one - does that mean another app will use the same one (in some cases)

[racer-x]

They say opinions are like a$$holes……..everybody’s got one. Well here’s mine:

DV Codecs should only be used for editing and transferring to DVD or back to camera, they should never be recompressed more than once. I don’t care who makes the codec, it’s still a lossy format like jpg and mp3. I do lots of creative editing with Premiere, but I always export the Timeline to DVD spec Mpeg-2. The only thing that gets rendered by the DV codec, is the FX that I create. In my opinion, Microsoft DV codec does just fine for this. I can never see any degradation of quality in the frames that are rendered that one time. Microsoft DV is most compatible, other codecs give Premiere troubles.

Don’t get me wrong, there are lots of time I render a clip multiple times to get the effect I want. But I always use Uncompressed RGB for that. It is totally lossless, fully supported and just plain works great.

Look at it another way. Do you take the jpgs out of your digital camera and edit and save them, or do you only edit a copy of the jpgs? You’d be a fool if you keep editing jpgs.

[Colmino]

But I always use Uncompressed RGB for that. It is totally lossless, fully supported and just plain works great.

Not to split hairs or anything, but I just recently read that it was basically impossible to convert "YUV" (which is what DV is in) to RGB without some color loss, due, apparently, to RGB's inferior flexibility for color values.

Matter of fact, this item is one of the next things I plan to research. For the time being, I have no idea whether using a DV codec to decode the video to something usable by Avisynth (or whatever) is in fact converting it to RGB, or whether it's merely creating an RGB image for the sake of visual representation on the PC monitor. Ideally, of course, it's just making an RGB image for the monitor, and properly handling the DV at the software level without downgrading the color info. That's up to the codec, though, I guess.

[kabanero]

I second BJ_M tests results. Sony (former SonicFoundry) DV codec is the best. I have Vegas 4 and Sony D8 TRV840, and I don't have any quality loss after editing in Vegas and recording back to tape.

@racer-x

Don’t get me wrong, there are lots of time I render a clip multiple times to get the effect I want. But I always use Uncompressed RGB for that. It is totally lossless, fully supported and just plain works great.

racer-x

How much is your biggest hard drive?

I just rerendered 1 minute of the video in Vegas 4. Here is the file sizes:

1. 1 minute of DV AVI - 223 MB
2. 1 minute of Uncompressed AVI - 2.44 GB

So, let say, you have 2 hours of video, and you are working with Uncompressed RGB AVI, yo will need 300 GB just for the source AVI. and then another 300 GB for rerendered Uncompressed RGB AVI.

Second, when you transfer DV from D8 or MiniDV camcorder, video is already compressed, so you are waisting time and space when capturing and editing Uncompressed RGB AVI.

This is my opinion.

[proxyx99]

BJ_M. So what is the downside of using the other codecs other then 5 rated? How is the MCDV inferior to SonyDV? Just give us more insight (as well as (tested) versions numbers).

[spectroelectro]

BJ_M's ranking sounds spot-on. I haven't used the Sony but have seen or used all the others. Just yesterday I had to re-encode a capture done with MainConcept. I can't see any visible difference between the second run-through and the first. The MicroSoft DV codec sucks major ass. I never use it. You can see how bad the MS codec looks when using a PCI video card. The preview screen looks like crap when you use the MS coder, looks decent when using the MainConcept DV codec.
I would rate the LG codec somewhat lower, though.

[racer-x]

kabanero wrote:

racer-x

How much is your biggest hard drive?

I just rerendered 1 minute of the video in Vegas 4. Here is the file sizes:

1. 1 minute of DV AVI - 223 MB
2. 1 minute of Uncompressed AVI - 2.44 GB

Your absolutely right. I said that I rendered a clip for special effect (animation ect.) and is never longer than 30 sec or about 900 MBs. I don't convert DV to Uncompressed RGB. I usually extract a frame or two out of the video saved as bmp. I edit them in Photoshop and use them for special effects. Sometimes I need to make animated video clips out of them, that's when I use Uncompressed RGB.

[proxyx99]

I second BJ_M tests results. Sony (former SonicFoundry) DV codec is the best. I have Vegas 4 and Sony D8 TRV840, and I don't have any quality loss after editing in Vegas and recording back to tape.

Hmm, I seriously doubt if you were using Sony codec in Vegas. Are u sure it wasn't Mainconcept?
As much as I respect other members opinions I just can't settle for a single statement and arbitraly rating without saying how and what (versions) was tested. I'm just not convinced about absolute superiority of Canopus DV codec. Same appiles to SonyDV codec. I also seriously doubt if anyone would be able to tell what codec is it by just looking at video. Every DV codec will handle at least 5 times rerender without any visible loss. Since there are no sources that I've been able to track covering this subject I would leave it to individual taste (unless the information gets more precise).

[kabanero]

I second BJ_M tests results. Sony (former SonicFoundry) DV codec is the best. I have Vegas 4 and Sony D8 TRV840, and I don't have any quality loss after editing in Vegas and recording back to tape.

Hmm, I seriously doubt if you were using Sony codec in Vegas. Are u sure it wasn't Mainconcept?.

I don't have MainConcept codec installed in my PC. Vegas 4 comes with its own DV codec from SoFo (SonicFoundry) now it is owned by Sony. I also have Sony DV codec in my Sony Digital8 TRV840 camcoder.

[BJ_M]

kabanero is right -- vegas doesnt use the main concept codec ..

[proxyx99]

I second BJ_M tests results. Sony (former SonicFoundry) DV codec is the best. I have Vegas 4 and Sony D8 TRV840, and I don't have any quality loss after editing in Vegas and recording back to tape.

Hmm, I seriously doubt if you were using Sony codec in Vegas. Are u sure it wasn't Mainconcept?.

I don't have MainConcept codec installed in my PC. Vegas 4 comes with its own DV codec from SoFo (SonicFoundry) now it is owned by Sony. I also have Sony DV codec in my Sony Digital8 TRV840 camcoder.

Again, even though I own Vegas 4 I think it's safe to say that it has nothing common with Sony except for recent ownership change. SoFo codec is not Sony and Sony in your camera stays in the camera. Correct me if I'm wrong but you have never used Sony DV codec - based on your description.

@BJ_M Can you provide more details about yout codec rating/testing?

[BJ_M]

i am calling the vegas codec the sony codec , which was written by the former sonic foundry (dennis - the group leader) but is now sony



i didnt include various dv25 and dv50 codecs or HDDV


method of testing was simple -- render original source material (uncompressed) to DV or what came out of a camera to DV shooting charts and checking with eye and scope ... the rendered stuff is blown up andcompared to the original and also but on the scope and diff. noted ..

in some cases -- some were more pleasing visual - but true to the original was the criteria ..

to say -- we don't really use DV much except some stuff shot on GL2's -- everthing else is film or d-beta or HD formats (D5 or HDCAM)
.. also some dvd work fed through a laird DV transcoder ...

[proxyx99]

Fair enough. I was asking questions as that was also my concern (DV quality). My findings were a bit different. I did a number of system conversions for a party that supplied me with HQ MPEG2 meterial. Following my experiments (very extensive as quality issue was important) I discovered that Vegas 4 to DV was worse then using T-Rex. Picture was much softer, more bleeding and noise. I tested every tool that I could use. Still, never checked what codec Pinnacle is using (they had their own Pinnacle DV codec be4). But that got me to start using more Pinnacle stuff.
I did several runs of conversions and rerenders and have no doubt to say that what Pinnacle uses is far superior to Vegas 4 and Premiere Pro. My MC codec testing rendered very good results as well but Pinnacle was a notch better. Color purity, render quality and detail is better then Procoder as well. My path was MPEG2 to DV then conversion to PAL or NTSC and back to MPEG2. I tested all available encoders and NLE's except Avid (still to be done). I also included MainActor5, VideoStudio7, Ulead Media Studio Pro 7, Pinnacle Edition 5.5, Canopus Procoder 1.5, Mainconcept 1.4, TMPEG. Nothing could beat Pinnacle T-Rex and it's Edition 5.5. I obtained same results with MC 1.4. I have to say I avoid using Vegas 4 DV encoding as the results are much softer and noisy then Pinnacle. In that sense I find your results stunning to me. I would rate Vegas DV at max 3, no more. Premire Pro is a notch better, I would give it 3.5. I think MC and whatever Pinnacle use is of Very high quality. Even though I owned Storm from Canopus I was not very impressed with a codec (too hard, contrasty - brightens light colors and darkens dark ones). It stayed with me until today and I subconciously avoid Canopus stuff since then. You could say I'm more of a Pinnacle/MC guy. And not because somone said so. It's because of Gig's of tested video I went through trying to find tools and output I would be comfortable with.

[BJ_M]

if you search around -- you will also find several reviews and tests that also show vegas codec to be the best and hold up the most to re-encoding .. edition 5.5 also came in high , but i never tested or will EVER use a Pinnacle product again after they left out to dry with zero support for 2 very expenisive editing systems ...