DVD-Audio Authoring Software

[bedstuy]

Sorry if I'm in the wrong place but I'm looking for Mac DVD-Audio authoring software for home, I guess you'd call it "hobbyist" level not professional, and I can't seem to find much information other than Sonic DVD-Audio Creator which is professional.

Or is this just the case that it is a new format and there's basically nothing available?

Basically I realize for archiving purposes I can just use Toast and burn AIFF files on a DVD media (correct?) and then, I guess, if I want to play them through iTunes at any later date I'll just have to re-import them (correct?) -- I don't think iTunes can play them back at the moment off of a DVD or am I wrong?

I did a search here for DVD-audio and it seems this hasn't come up.

[galactica]

DVD-A as in audio dvd?
or dvd data that has audio?!

for me, i make mp3 dvd's that are data with 4.4 gigs of mp3's on them

iTunes will play off mounted dvd's as long as you
1. set copy to iTunes foder to OFF
2. drag the files from the DVD to iTunes so that iTunes knows to look at that mounted dvd.
3. whenever you want to play that song have the dvd inserted and mounted

if iTunes puts the ! mark next to the song it assumes the file is not in its location and freaks, then you have to "find" the song

so far no problems as long as i NEVER try to play teh song without the disk inserted first.

is taht what your wanting?!
or do you want it to play audio off the dvd player as in your settop dvd player

[Frobozz]

Roxio has announced Jam 6 that is supposed to released in mid-February or early March. It will have the ability to create audio DVDs with 2-channel Dolby Digital or PCM tracks playable on a DVD player. It also will have some kind of on-screen directory. Requires Toast 6.

[Cornucopia]

Roxio has announced Jam 6 that is supposed to released in mid-February or early March. It will have the ability to create audio DVDs with 2-channel Dolby Digital or PCM tracks playable on a DVD player. It also will have some kind of on-screen directory. Requires Toast 6.

Sorry Frobozz, just went to their website at http://www.roxio.com/en/company/news/archive/prelease040105.jhtml and they're talking about DVD "Music Albums", which are files compressed to either AC3/DD 2.0 or MP2, and possibly combined with stills, to play in std DVD-Video players. No DVD-Audio as yet. Too bad! Roxio's Jam could have been the one to do it, too.

Scott

[Frobozz]

Yeah, Cornucopia, no DVD-Audio. Their reference to "full quality" audio apparently does mean PCM and the "theater-rich" audio is Dolby Digital. A posting on the Jam 5 forum states "You can use PCM or AC-3. PCM will get probably 90-120 minutes. AC-3 will get 6 hours or more." The rest of the disc space apparently is being used by the video and directory. I plan to order a copy just to find out how well it works.

On a different audio subject have you checked out the new SqueezeBox <http://www.slimdevices.com>? This is the best product I've seen so far to play an iTunes library on a home stereo. But for now I'll just keep playing my old-fashioned cds.

[bedstuy]

Yes, it seems there is absolutely nothing to record things in DVD-Audio format on a hobbyist level for a Mac. I believe there are for a PC. With Sonic's stuff evidently you can "publish" things on a Mac but the actual authoring has to be done on a PC:

Sonic Scenarist, DVD Creator and DVD Fusion for Macintosh are the only commercially available DVD-Video authoring systems that may be used to author a VIDEO_TS for a hybrid DVD-Audio/DVD-Video title. All other commercially available systems use an 'abstraction' layer in their authoring environments. This is a layer between the user interface and the DVD-Video specification that stops the author being able to have complete control of every parameter of the DVD-Video specification. Since a DVD-Audio VIDEO_TS requires tight control of the specification, there is no way to produce a compliant DVD-Audio VIDEO_TS with such systems, and therefore they cannot be used.

There was a "rumor" on MacRumors that referenced this MacBidouille info, though of course iTunes 4.2 came out last month and it's the same version in the new iLife so I assume this MacBidouille info which is from last July is wrong:

[Rumor] iTunes 5 and DRM - Lionel - 01:39:42

In order to convince majors how secure ITMS really is, Apple would be on the verge of reinforcing copy restrictions in future iTunes software versions.
Currently, it is possible to overcome the AAC protection system, brun an audio CD from iTunes, then encode it again. Though they shall drop in quality, these files will lose any protection during the process.
To solve this crucial issue, Apple is reported to have taken a licence from Verance.
This system is said to add an (unaudible) watermark on audio CDs. When inserting such a CD, iTunes will see if the machine is enabled to burn an audio CD from that source or not.
Thus, if you create an audio CD and lend it to a friend, he will be able to listen to it, but not to get the tracks to his machine. This protection should particularly be used with the audio DVD format due to be supported with iTunes 5.
Audio DVD sound, with 5.1 sound management, would also be proposed and offered online on the iTunes Music Store.

I guess for now I'm stuck archiving to DVDs in AIFF or AAC format, and perhaps at a latter date as the DVD-Audio format becomes more accepted there will be cheaper consumer versions, as the Sonicstudio programs cost thousands. (I have a huge collection of vinyl records and I want to archive a lot of material to DVD. It's a rather herculean task as most are DJ 12-inch singles so it's a lot more of stop/start recording than if it were whole sides of LP format vinyl.)

[Frobozz]

Interesting info, bedstuy. I'm curious what you see as the advantage to you of DVD-Audio for archiving your digitized vinyl LPs. In your initial post you asked about playing DVDs filled with aiff or mp3 tracks using iTunes, and the reply showed how that is easily done. I've also done that and get nearly 24 hours of music on one DVD.

Still, I would like to make longer-than-CD compilation discs of my LP and CD collection to play with my DVD player in my home stereo (rather than connect my Mac to my stereo and use iTunes). That's what intrigues me about Jam 6. It also does not require a DVD-Audio compliant DVD player which I don't have.

What would DVD-Audio provide you with your digitized LPs that you can't get with these other options? I'm interested in learning more about this subject for my own purposes.

[djsteve1]

DVD-A (or DVD-Audio) is a high quality format for storing audio and some accompanying menus/images. Audio quality settings vary from CD-quality mono ( 1x 16bit/44.1kHz) to super high-resolution stereo (2x 24bit/192kHz), as well as high-resolution 6-channel discrete surround (6x 24bit/96kHz). It can store the audio in raw format, or may use a lossless compression method known as MLP to allow more minutes of audio per disc. Note that this compression is not like MP3 or AAC, in that *all* of the original waveform is retained (there is no loss of quality).

DVD-A discs typically include the audio in both DVD-A and DVD-V (i.e., dolby digital AAC) formats, so that they can be played in any DVD player. However, it should be noted that the DVD-A encoded portion may only be played in DVD players specifically manufactured for DVD-A compatiblility (they will have a DVD-AUDIO label on the front, usually next to or included in the standard DVD-VIDEO label). DVD-AUDIO incorporates a much more advanced encryption scheme than does DVD-V. What this means is that a regular DVD player will only be able to access the inferior (although still decent) AAC compressed music, but DVD-A players can access the much higher quality version.

Although there are no DVD-A encoding/burning programs available for Mac that I am aware of, there is a (relatively) inexpensive one for PC called DiscWelder Steel (http://www.discwelder.com). It retails for $499, but you can find it discounted for a bit less at some dealers. Also, rumor has it that if you are only interested in stereo encoding/burning to DVD-A, they are working on a $99 "lite" version.

You can learn a lot more about DVD-A here: http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_8_4/dvd-benchmark-part-6-dvd-audio-11-2001.html

-djsteve

[AntnyMD]

... but the thing about DVD-Audio (and Super Audio CD, for that matter) is having a high resolution copy from a high resolution source. A vinyl LP is not a high resolution source, so copying it for authoring as DVD-Audio is pointless beyond conquering the technology. It's the functional equivalent of making a DVD-Video from a VHS tape recorded at SLP speed.

[djsteve1]

A vinyl LP is not a high resolution source, so copying it for authoring as DVD-Audio is pointless beyond conquering the technology. It's the functional equivalent of making a DVD-Video from a VHS tape recorded at SLP speed.

That's a great way of opening up a never-ending debate Believe me, there are many, many audiophiles that will challenge you on that statement. In theory, an analog medium always has the potential to more accurately capture and playback source material. The caveat is that the quality of the medium (i.e. vinyl and pressing) and the playback mechanism (i.e. turntable, stylus, pre-amp, etc) have a much more critical effect on its ability to do so compared to digital.

-djsteve

[Lobe]

before you worry about DVD-Audio, be sure to have a VERY GOOD A/D converter at least something like a Mytek or an Apogee.
http://www.mytekdigital.com/stereo96.htm

Otherwise you're probably wasting your time with DVD-A, it's still only going to sound as good as the weakest link in your chain. And usually that is your ADC.
And yes with the right equipment vinyl trasfer WILL benefit from DVD-Audio.

[AntnyMD]

Believe me, there are many, many audiophiles that will challenge you on that statement.

Who are these mysterious beings? Do they vote or pay taxes? Take me to your Leader.

[Lobe]

...A vinyl LP is not a high resolution source, so copying it for authoring as DVD-Audio is pointless beyond conquering the technology.

so then what is the resolution of a vinyl LP?
vinyl has more limited bandwidth but "resolution"????

a CD is relatively low resolution, that's why they came out with DVD-Audio/higher bit depth and sample rates.

[bedstuy]

I'm starting to think I should just keep all my records (or a substantial amount of them). I guess if I can archive half of them that will be sufficient. They're all in excellent condition as I'm more of a hermit bedroom DJ.

Thanks for the feedback, but I can see DVD-Audio and a high-end A/D converter is out of my price range for now. I'll just have to stick with AIFF files on a DVD and keep the best half of my stuff as is on vinyl. Frankly I like how analog sounds for music.

Basically I can't let go and make myself completely digital, as much as I would like to so I don't have so much "stuff".

One day the price will come down on DVD-Audio.

So djsteve1 -- you ARE saying that it's possible to convert vinyl to decent sounding DVD-Audio format, as long as one has a high-end A/D converter, right? You've done this successfully?

[AntnyMD]

I, too, have decided to keep all of my records. I started a project to put them all on to CD's but after a few dubs I was felt it was ultimately a waste of time because whenever I wanted to play those particular titles, I always broke out the vinyl.

I will however, capture them into the Powerbook at some point and chop them into AAC files. Putting them on CD's didn't make sense, but having them in my iPod makes perfect sense.

[Cornucopia]

All analog stuff, including LP's, have infinite "theoretical" bandwidth and infinite "theoretical" resolution. Now, for normal practical purposes, there are obvious points of diminishing returns and places where the capability of the system is less than the capability of perceiving noise and distortion.
For most LP's, if you use MM (moving magnet) cartridges and styli, you're bandwidth is going to be ~40Hz...19kHz/20kHz/22kHz/25kHz. If you use MC (moving coil), it'll be ~20Hz...35kHz/40kHz. The resolution (or SNR) depends on the mastering, storage and handling, pre-amp and amp, etc. If you just look at SNR, it's like ~60/70/maybe 80db. Not even as good as CD. However, there is still fine resolution even below the noise (usually hiss), which can go to ~90/100/110db.
So if you were to take the lowest numbers, yeah it wouldn't even be as good as CD. But if you have a great system, and take the higher numbers, CD wouldn't do it justice--you'd want to go to DVD-Audio or SACD.

Scott

[AntnyMD]

Dont forget that needle dragging through the grooves sounds just wonderful in multi-channel surround sound.

[djsteve1]

Dont forget that needle dragging through the grooves sounds just wonderful in multi-channel surround sound.

DVD-A supports mono and stereo modes in addition to surround. It obviously wouldn't make sense to record vinyl records to a surround format, since they are a stereo format (a very few may utilize a matrixed surround encoding like Dolby Pro Logic, but even then the effect is minimal at best and an analog decoder would need to be inline to the recording setup).

The advantage of recording vinyl (or any other source) to DVD-A is the amount of *non-lossy* high-quality material that can be placed onto a single disc. Using MLP, you can record up to 720 minutes of CD-quality (16bit/44.1kHz), 240 minutes of enhanced resolution (24bit/96kHz), or 120 minutes of high resolution (24bit/192kHz) stereo audio.

Realize that archiving to MP3, AAC, WMA, etc. results in a file that is no longer a copy of the original - those encoding schemes are lossy, which is why they sound worse as lower bitrates are selected, or if they are re-encoded. Using a non-lossy format like DVD-A gives you the best quality digital archive, which allows for re-encoding in the future with better compression schemes as they become available.

[Frobozz]

Thanks all for continuing this discussion. It's interesting even though for me it is only theoretical because I have nothing that will encode audio at anything better than 16 bits. Nor do I have anything that will play 24-bit sound. It wasn't that long ago I was happy with my Laserdiscs and didn't see what the big deal was with DVD. I sense another change ahead for my entertainment system.

But until I advance to the next generation of digital audio it's nice to know I can play my records when I want to hear music at its best.

[chikanakan]

Seems like Toast with Jam will get much more on the DVD Music Album then 6 hours. At 448kbps AC-3 it should be around 20 hours, 224kpbs will be around 40 hours

[Frobozz]

I agree it should be more, but so far there is no official word on this. Some space is needed for how they manage the video directory.

[djsteve1]

Seems like Toast with Jam will get much more on the DVD Music Album then 6 hours. At 448kbps AC-3 it should be around 20 hours, 224kpbs will be around 40 hours

Yes, if lossy compression like AC-3 is acceptable for your archived music, then you will be able to record much more material onto a disc in comparison to using DVD-A format. The difference is that one method is lossy (i.e. the audio is irreversably modified) while the other is not.

Obviously it also matters what DVD playback devices you have - a standard DVD player will only be able to play a DVD-V AC-3 disc, while some newer car stereos (like in the '04 Acura TL) will only be able to play DVD-A discs.

-djsteve

[Frobozz]

For the sake of discussion, djsteve, what do you suggest people do who want to digitize their analog music in an archival quality? The Mac allows us to do this with 16-bit AIFF for the best quality. I don't know the availability or cost of home 24-bit analog-to-digital converters. Even if I did digitize at 24 bits, could I burn this to CD and DVD using Toast and expect it to be playable on a SACD or DVD-A player?

I understand your point about the benefits of lossless encoding and DVD-A sound quality. But at this time, isn't this really a format for commercially recorded media and not for the home analog-to-digital archivest?

Also, wouldn't you consider the Jam 6 PCM option to be lossless because it is not a compressed audio format?

[djsteve1]

what do you suggest people do who want to digitize their analog music in an archival quality? The Mac allows us to do this with 16-bit AIFF for the best quality.

Since much of the audible advantage of a 24-bit recording is in its lowered noise floor, my opinion is that it is overkill when capturing vinyl records of standard quality and played on standard equipment. As a DJ, I know that my records have certainly had their noise-floor raised from repeated beat searching, etc. That said, a high-quality pressing played on a high-end turntable/stylus might benefit. Otherwise, 16-bit is more than adequate.

I don't know the availability or cost of home 24-bit analog-to-digital converters.

There are more out there than you might think, and at very affordable prices. Check this one out, for example:

M-Audio Transit

Even if I did digitize at 24 bits, could I burn this to CD and DVD using Toast and expect it to be playable on a SACD or DVD-A player?

No, Toast doesn't (currently) support writing in either SACD or DVD-A format, regardless of the sample bit/rate of the original audio. In fact, there are currently no Mac applications that can.

isn't {DVD-A} really a format for commercially recorded media and not for the home analog-to-digital archivest?

Yes, I would agree with that. I didn't intend to suggest that DVD-A was the most practical solution for the task, but did want to clarify its possibilities and advantages.

Also, wouldn't you consider the Jam 6 PCM option to be lossless because it is not a compressed audio format?

Yes, absolutely. The earlier post quoted recording capacity based on AC-3, which is lossy (it is otherwise known as Dolby Digital, and is what is used on most DVD movies). A PCM disc would not be able to hold nearly as much music.

What I've done to archive my 12" singles is record via a high-quality external A-D at 16bit/44.1kHz, manually clean the audio waveform of clicks and pops as best as possible (a tedious task, but much better than using so called automatic methods), and save in AIFF format. I also compress a copy to AAC so I can listen on my iPod

[Cornucopia]

For the sake of discussion, djsteve, what do you suggest people do who want to digitize their analog music in an archival quality? The Mac allows us to do this with 16-bit AIFF for the best quality. I don't know the availability or cost of home 24-bit analog-to-digital converters. Even if I did digitize at 24 bits, could I burn this to CD and DVD using Toast and expect it to be playable on a SACD or DVD-A player?

I understand your point about the benefits of lossless encoding and DVD-A sound quality. But at this time, isn't this really a format for commercially recorded media and not for the home analog-to-digital archivest?

Also, wouldn't you consider the Jam 6 PCM option to be lossless because it is not a compressed audio format?

I know it's a little bit off-topic (being PC and all), but you could get a PC with Sound Blaster Audigy2 (24-bit capture and playback), DVD burner, a 24-bit capable audio editing program (like CoolEdit/Audition), and DiscWelder Steel DVD-A authoring. It's not super-cheap or free, but for somebody who might spend a couple $K on turntable, cartridge/styli, pre-amp, speakers, etc., it wouldn't be that big of a deal and it's still in the range of the home archivist/recordist.

As far as what the little guys can do vs. what only the big guys can do: This is one of the main reasons that I prefer DVD-A over SACD. A well-to-do dad(or mom), hobbyist, city librarian, or struggling small business can do DVD-A. Not so with SACD!

Don't let big corporations take away our ability to do-it-ourselves!

Scott

[Hardlok]

Did you know that your Mac can do PC software? Get a copy of Discwelder Steel for $4xx, get a Mac software to run Windows software, and then use Steel to create a disc image that you can burn with the Mac.

You can get up to 24-bit/192kHz if your capturing hardware can support it.
Have fun!

Sorry if I'm in the wrong place but I'm looking for Mac DVD-Audio authoring software for home, I guess you'd call it "hobbyist" level not professional, and I can't seem to find much information other than Sonic DVD-Audio Creator which is professional.

Or is this just the case that it is a new format and there's basically nothing available?

Basically I realize for archiving purposes I can just use Toast and burn AIFF files on a DVD media (correct?) and then, I guess, if I want to play them through iTunes at any later date I'll just have to re-import them (correct?) -- I don't think iTunes can play them back at the moment off of a DVD or am I wrong?

I did a search here for DVD-audio and it seems this hasn't come up.