Computer used as a PVR?

[hulkamania]

I want to use my computer as a personal video recorder. can anyone give me a few suggestions as to what hardware and software works best for this?

Also, will I be able to save stuff to DVD-R and watch it again on my DVD player?

Thanks!

[gcutler]

First question is, will this be your primary PC as well as your PVR. Bacause if you have to share the machine with others, it will be a problem. Little Timmy might not be able to play his games or write his report while the PVR is doing it's work. A stand alone PVR may be more cost effective than having a PC do the function.

If you don't have to share, make sure you find a PVRcard that will connect with your cable system. Some of these units do not have the ability to change cable box or satellite box channels. And with more and more digital cable systems requiring cable boxes, that can be an issue.

If you buy the right hardware and SW you should be able to record to DVD. But there are some standalone combo PVR/Recorder boxes out there that will do everything out of the box.

[mysticgohan17]

Buy this video card and follow this guide.

[DereX888]

My tested suggestion:
Hardware:
ATI All-In-Wonder Radeon card (no need for newest model - oldest 32MB model for about $40 for sale at discount stores will do same great job for videocapturing as the newest AIW Radeon) ,
Pentium4 1.4GHz+ or Celeron 1.8GHz+ or AMD 1.8GHz+,
at least 40GB hard drive

Software:
ATI's own MultiMediaCenter 7.7 or newer, with TV Guide+ Plus (both included with the card), Windows 2000 (less problems with it than Windows XP, and obviously more stable than any Win9x/ME and even WinXP in my opinion).

note:
AMD processors are actually worse for on-the-fly encoded MPEG videocapturing than Intel ones, you need higher clock AMDs; in my past experience P4 1.4 or Athlon 1.8 is the minimum to achieve no frames dropped MPEG capturing at DVD-compliant specs; however if you don't need any MPEG standard recordings and you are not going to archive your recordings on a DVDs or SVCDs you can use even slower CPU and capture in AVI format with any low-compressed codecs, or in a VCD format (but be warned - thats a really low quality). You would need huge hard drive(s) for storage in AVI format though.

[djmattyb]

OK. Here are some screenshots from the PVR software that comes with the ATI All In Wonder Radeon 8500. All of the graphics of the GUI are large so you can see them easily on a TV. Also, there is a remote that comes with the video card and it's an Radio Frequency remote so you can set up your computer behind or underneath your home theater (back where you can't hear the noisy fans) and you can still control it. This is a really great video card and the extra software makes everything really easy! And to answer your 2nd question, I record straight to DVD and 1/2 DVD all the time. Then I cut the commercials out using TMPGEnd DVD Auhor and save the shows onto a DVD+R or DVD+RW. If you have any other questions, I'll do my best to answer them.

[djmattyb]

[djmattyb]

[djmattyb]

Oh yeah, I forgot about the onscreen Guide+ thing

[indolikaa]

Computer used as a PVR?

HELL YES!

I run a DirecTV DVR and an EchoStar PVR into two separate computers that do nothing but capture satellite broadcasts. Sometimes live, sometimes from their hard drives. Here are their surprisingly 'weak' specifications:

Athlon T'Bird 1200/266
ATI AIW 9000 Pro
ATI MMC 8.1
512MB PC133 RAM
30GB ATA/100 HDD
Optorite DD0203 DVD±RW

1/2 D1 or Full D1. MP2 or LPCM. Up to 4500 VBR or 5000 CBR and not a single dropped frame.

Yes. You heard correctly. Not a single dropped frame. You can capture MPEG-2 video with a Thunderbird 1200 but you have to run Windows 2000 Professional and the computer cannot be doing anything else. Including being physically connected to a DSL router, cable modem or network hub/switch.

I think Derex888 would be quick to jump in and say this is not the ideal system for PVRing. He is correct, of course. What I'm demonstrating is how not-difficult PVRing on a computer can be. Had I not walked into these two computers for practically nothing, I would most certainly have done it another way.

No matter how you go, if you can move your video editing and encoding into a second, dedicated machine, you are far better off.

.indolikaa.

[PolarBearWY]

Many of the things gcutler mentioned don't have to be an issue of concern. Most, if not all, digital cable or satellite receivers have tuning timer capability, so you don't need a capture card that will tune to the channel for you. Simply set the satellite or cable box to go to a channel at a specific time and it will. Set your PC PVR timer to start recording at about the same time, and it will.

Also, it really depends on your computer resources as to whether or not you need to worry about the PC being a primary or family unit. I built a system last summer and can capture full DVD-compliant audio/video from my Dish Network receiver, burn a DVD at 4x, have several Internet Explorer windows open, and even play a game of Freecell. If you have a fast enough CPU and enough RAM, you can certainly multitask your capture as well. (I haven't dropped a single frame yet)

Personally, I'm in love with the ATI All-In-Wonder AGP8x 128MB 9800 Pro. I bought the retail box for $350, shipped. But, I can't tell you it's the best, because I haven't used any other capture cards except a very old piece-of-crap Asus V7700 Deluxe. The truth of the matter is, very few people in this forum have used more than one comparable capture card, so be cautious taking advice from people that say "get this card!" There are dozens out there that are "great" cards. Some may have a feature or two that others don't but for the most part, they are mostly the same. Some may record to PAL better than others. Some, like the card I have, will write directly to DVD-compliant MPEG2 with PCM audio. It's not really any different than comparing a Honda Accord, Camry, and Maxima. Some of the stats may be slightly different, but for the most part, the ride and 0-60 times are too close to worry about.

I won't tell you to buy the card I had, but I will tell you that I'm very pleased with it. The picture and audio are as good as the source, after I have written to DVD... or at least as good as I can tell. I have yet to drop a frame, I can multitask during capture, and I don't have to go to the extremes of having a dedicated hard drive, disconnecting the network, setting up RAID, or any of that other nonsense. Frankly, this card performs flawlessly no matter how I use it.

Could you get away with buying a $150 WinTV card? Probably. Possibly not. I don't know. But there is a difference of $200 between that card and the card I just bought for some reason. In almost everything in life, you get what you pay for. Did I get an extra $200 worth of stuff? I don't know. But I do know that I don't see many people in the forum with the 9800 Pro, and I see even fewer people that can multitask their capture without losing a single frame. So, you tell me?!

(Some of my success could be due to my fast computer with lots of memory.)

[PolarBearWY]

I guess I can go ahead and post the system that gives me this success.

Asus P4P800-Deluxe
Intel P4 2.4C (overclocked to 2.77)
1 GB OCZ PC3500 DDR running 1:1 w/ FSB
El Cheapo 350W PSU
Lite-On 52x CDRW
Pioneer 106 4x DVD+/-R(W)
ATI AIW 8x AGP 9800 Pro
(using onboard sound)
WD 45GB HD
WD 120GB SE HD

[lordsmurf]

I've got two ATI AIW 7200 cards ... use one for PVR, one for DVD recording and VHS transfer

[DereX888]

Slightly off subject:

@indolikaa

One of my 'dedicated' recording & playing boxes, it was located in a living room and connected to a tv. It supposed to replace my VCR (but it never did, I still have a VCR too in my living room lol).
It had ATI All In Wonder Pro, first Real Magic Hollywood Plus (MPEG card) and with a X-10 RF remote control/mouse (great great product!) and first USB Connectix QuickCam (what a crap) and a Sony DDU-??? (220? I dont remember now) dvd-rom it was as well my first home dvd player, home communication center (i was using some really cool software fax/answering machine/email center, plus M$ NetMeeting for free "long distance calls" and videocalls - to those who had it as well) and with a giant 6GB hard drive - it was my PVR as well and foremost
Guess what CPU it was running on?
Don't drop off ur chair: Pentium MMX 166MHz (lol!)
And yes - it was running Windows 95 (OSR2.1), had some 32MB of RAM (alot back then) and was crashing very very often, but it was working anyhow (Im scratching my head and raising eyebrows now lol

So indolikaa - your t-bird 1200 is already like heaven compared to all this I agree with you that for a dedicated PVR box even slower CPUs than what I've mention may suffice. With some imagination and right software/hardware tools anyone can make a better or worse PVR out of almost anything, altough the thing with on-the-fly MPEG compression by A-I-W Radeon card is that it uses better VBR encoding when it has faster CPU at its disposal.

[indolikaa]

@DereX888

Now that's what I call vintage computing! Win95.2.1 with Pentium MMX. You didn't mention whether that RAM was Fast-Page, EDO, or were you the horsepower stud on your block running SDRAM?

I had developed an anti-ATI attitude through the years. My first 'real' video card was a Creative Labs 3D Blaster PCI. I splurged and went with the 4MB version. My next card was the Asus V7700 Deluxe. I did a lot of computer repair over the years, and I had come to associate ATI with being a royal pain to troubleshoot.

When I found LordSmurf defending ATI, I thought, "Is this guy crazy?" But the more I read the more I thought maybe it was worth a try. It certainly does everything a PVR user would want. I threw caution to the wind and purchase one, and have been pleasantly surprised ever since.

And it's an awesome gaming card, too.


But hey. When somebody gives you 2 barbones T'Bird 1200 systems to settle a $100 debt...

Edited for spelling.

[dcsos]

I couldn't PVR but I could capture without frame drops!

PENTIUM 1 DEC 133 Venturis w/ 96MB RAM
Targa 1000
I-O Data SCSI card
4 GB SCSI Disc
this BOX captured from VHS, 3/4" and TV TURNER not built in
without dropping frames on a P133 with no MMX

I couldn't go too long (maybe a half hour without reaching FAT 32's 2GIG limit and I didn't have the foresight to run NTFS back then) (NT 4.0 days)

[dcsos]

I couldn't PVR but I could capture without frame drops!

PENTIUM 1 DEC 133 Venturis w/ 96MB RAM
Targa 1000
I-O Data SCSI card
4 GB SCSI Disc
this BOX captured from VHS, 3/4" and TV TURNER not built in
without dropping frames on a P133 with no MMX

I couldn't go too long (maybe a half hour without reaching FAT 32's 2GIG limit and I didn't have the foresight to run NTFS back then) (NT 4.0 days)

[scrotus]

Though the MMC comes with the ATI cards, there is a much more powerful solution out there.

Snapstream 3

Hands down the best program for what you are doing. You can view files over the internet (streaming) or on the LAN. Set up record events over the net, etc. Really powerful. Check it out.

[DereX888]

@ indolikaa

You didn't mention whether that RAM was Fast-Page, EDO, or were you the horsepower stud on your block running SDRAM?

lol I didnt even wish I had something better than SIMM (EDO) SDRAM was sooo expensive, and my mobo didnt support it anyway (some BCM mobo, had any imaginable limits, but already had USB lol). I gradually upgraded that 'media center' box thru its 2-years lifespan in my living room, when I were selling it it was maxed out on RAM and CPU - 128MB & 233MHz, some 13.3GB maxtor hdd, Win98, 56.6 modem (first one was 33.3 ), 4x cd-writer etc

When I found LordSmurf defending ATI, I thought, "Is this guy crazy?" But the more I read the more I thought maybe it was worth a try.

My very first tvcap card was actually something called Zoltrix TV (IIRC). It supposed capture avi at 320x240 and with my first CD writer I was going to make my own VCDs, but that damn thing didnt work for capturing at all, no matter what thats why it was correctly named *tv tuner card* in the manual, not a "capture card" I guess
The moment I saw for the first time All-In-Wonder card 'at work' during some computer show in NYC in 1996 I was amazed (about the concept of having PC in a living room and using it instead of TV itself - what is called now "media center" by microsoft or dell) and I told myself - I gotta have this Ofcourse it was some super-duper demo box, with remote keyboard, mouse/gaming pad, in a cool black & red case (any colors but beige were unheard of back then) etc AFAIR - stuff I have never seen in the stores (at that time), but the idea was there.

But hey. When somebody gives you 2 barbones T'Bird 1200 systems to settle a $100 debt...

can't beat that! great deal lol



@dcsos

I couldn't go too long (maybe a half hour without reaching FAT 32's 2GIG limit

yeah filesize limit was my problem too. I was using some ATI's proprietary codec (IIRC: "ATIVCR") and even with its large compression at 352x240 all I could go for was something about 32 or 34 minutes at most. For longer shows I was just scheduling it in 30min parts.

[DereX888]

@ scrotus

personally i cant see the point of shelling out extra $60-70 for a software that does nothing more than the original software which is included free with most of the cards.
The only thing that comes to mind what it may do "more" is its remote control of PC through the internet. But for its $70 tag I'd rather stick to NetMeeting and its Remote Desktop Sharing function instead, which is included in every Windows since Win95, and is FREE...

[gcutler]

Many of the things gcutler mentioned don't have to be an issue of concern. Most, if not all, digital cable or satellite receivers have tuning timer capability, so you don't need a capture card that will tune to the channel for you. Simply set the satellite or cable box to go to a channel at a specific time and it will. Set your PC PVR timer to start recording at about the same time, and it will.

I'm sorry, but that is a BIG issue if you have to set it both in the PVR and the cable/satellite box. And the first time you forget to set it in both places you will see how it becomes an issue. I spent quite a bit of time with a PVR and a non compatible Cable Box. A person will very quickly become tired of having to set two timers, enough missed programs and the combination becomes useless. If it does not allow for the issue then it is a poor substitute for a TiVo or DirectTiVo type system. It may not be an issue for you, but the original poster wants a realistic analysis and it should be something worth considering.

[gcutler]

Also, it really depends on your computer resources as to whether or not you need to worry about the PC being a primary or family unit. I built a system last summer and can capture full DVD-compliant audio/video from my Dish Network receiver, burn a DVD at 4x, have several Internet Explorer windows open, and even play a game of Freecell. If you have a fast enough CPU and enough RAM, you can certainly multitask your capture as well. (I haven't dropped a single frame yet)

Again, not very realistic, several open IEs, what were you doing with them. And a game of Free Cell? Not much of resource hog...What about a game like Medal of Honor, can you Capture DV and play a resource hog game as well?

I think the PVR SW for a PC can be exactly what a person needs, but lets not twist the reality to make it seem like these systems limitations are so easily ignored...

[pbanders]

I have a PC integrated into my HT setup, and a Tivo. I've tried every PC-based PVR system on the market - none is remotely close to the Tivo for usable functionality, ease of use, reliability, and general performance. Don't for a second believe that "simple" PVR software is the same as Tivo - it isn't. Tivo makes it extremely simple to locate programming that you want, with little effort, that I guarantee you would have never found without it. Wishlists and smart scheduling of season passes are incredible features. As for reliability, I've rebooted my Tivo twice in the past year, that's it. Wife and kids can use it with zero instruction. No glitching, no a/v desynch, excellent video quality. When I want something to be recorded to disc, I push it to the PC over s-video and burn to either VCD or DVD, excellent quality. We never watch live TV any more, just what's on the Tivo. Worth every penny.

[gcutler]

I have a PC integrated into my HT setup, and a Tivo. I've tried every PC-based PVR system on the market - none is remotely close to the Tivo for usable functionality, ease of use, reliability, and general performance. Don't for a second believe that "simple" PVR software is the same as Tivo - it isn't. ...No glitching, no a/v desynch, excellent video quality. When I want something to be recorded to disc, I push it to the PC over s-video and burn to either VCD or DVD, excellent quality. We never watch live TV any more, just what's on the Tivo. Worth every penny.

And that is the issue that people should be looking at...How much does it really cost vs usability (Techie Gratification aside). If you have satellite (Dish or DirecTV) you can get a PVR/DVR for under $200 (the DirectTiVo is a dream, 2 tuners, etc, etc, no sub cost at higher program packages and can be gotten for $99 if you are lucky.)

For the Non-Satellite world, the cost of a Stand Alone TiVo with lifetime sub is around $500 (I think it worth it, but others obviously don't ) makes the PC based PVRs a more valid option (especially if you like to do alot of DVD archiving and advanced authoring).

The person considering the PC based PVR needs to determine what $$$ amount makes a option acceptable or not.

But if you are a DirectTV subscriber, not going for a DTiVo reqires some major contemplation and a very specific need...

[lordsmurf]

I've "tivo'd" 320x240 n PC while editing Photoshop images, surfer the web and tranferring files across drives with no adverse affect on the video. But that's for casual viewing and eventual deletion.

For real DVD creation, I leave the system alone.

[gcutler]

Drive configuration can be a pretty important issue when it comes to multi-tasking and capturing. Having two different drives on the two different controller channels can make life alot easier. But if sharing the same drive (capturing to C: and reading to C: or Capturing to one drive on same controller channel as the other drive you are reading/writing to). That is asking for dropped frames

The New SATA drives and the 10000RPM drives make the multitasking more possible. But those hardware options are still a little exotic.

I have 4 different capture machines, One with a 7200RPM and 5400RPM drive, one with a single 7200 and two with two 7200s (one with Drives on same controller and one with drives on different controller). The 5400 RPM is often a problem. The one with only one physical drive is a problem. The only one I would even attempt to multitask when capturing 720x480 x30FPS is the one with the two drives on two different controllers. And you do the wrong type of multitask like playing a resource intensive game or You start printing on an home HP inkjet printer that used alot of CPU, and watch that capture go to hell in a handbasket pretty quickly

[indolikaa]

PolarBearWY wrote:
Also, it really depends on your computer resources as to whether or not you need to worry about the PC being a primary or family unit. I built a system last summer and can capture full DVD-compliant audio/video from my Dish Network receiver, burn a DVD at 4x, have several Internet Explorer windows open, and even play a game of Freecell. If you have a fast enough CPU and enough RAM, you can certainly multitask your capture as well. (I haven't dropped a single frame yet)


Again, not very realistic,

Not realistic? I have to politely disagree with that.

I have previously spoken regarding two machines I built specifically for the purpose of capturing video. There is a third machine, the one listed in my profile. It is also an Athlon 1200/266.

This machine captures video from whatever source I need, although it's generally DV.avi. Lately, however, it's been from another AIW 9000 Pro I got my hands on. I normally limit it to MPEG-2 DVD, CBR 4000.

In fact, as we speak, we are capturing video. And connected to the Internet via DSL. And connected to the other machines via LAN. With espn.com, foxnews.com, the FOX News ticker, Outlook Express 6, and two different windows of Word open and running. Twenty minutes into the recording and I've had two frames dropped. Both at the initiation of the recording.

I think the PVR SW for a PC can be exactly what a person needs, but lets not twist the reality to make it seem like these systems limitations are so easily ignored...

You are correct. They are not easily ignored. That is why I suggested in my original post that the member consider having a second machine dedicated to video capture.

PolarBear is correct. And I noticed only programs that are not necessarily resource-intense/CPU-intense were included. I've never tried to burn a DVD during the other frivolities. Interesting...

Drive configuration can be a pretty important issue when it comes to multi-tasking and capturing. Having two different drives on the two different controller channels can make life alot easier.

And that can be the biggest factor. My capture drive is a dedicated, NTFS partition that covers the entire 30GB of one physical drive. With no IDE or ATAPI devices on the cable.


The budget determines just how far one can run with this idea. No, playing MOH while capturing video is somewhat unrealistic, and you won't get an argument from me on that. But 'basic' usage of the computer is still possible. As we speak, in fact.

[gcutler]

The budget determines just how far one can run with this idea. No, playing MOH while capturing video is somewhat unrealistic, and you won't get an argument from me on that. But 'basic' usage of the computer is still possible. As we speak, in fact.

My argument from the very beginning was not about "Basic" usage and Capturing. But I see it all the time either in my job function in IT or helping friends or family, they aways buy based on "Basic" usage (cheaping out on memory or drive space) but end up going just beyond "basic Usage" to be problematic. I just wanted the original poster to be aware of the issues, and not ignore the potential of problems. I'd rather excentuate the potential problems than the potential smoothness so the original poster can't say we played down the problems. Granted we don't want to talk the poster out of valid purchases, but one who knows as many of the potential pitfalls will less likely run into Murphys Law of "Basic Usage" and Capturing.

In a sense I wish the original poster would have described his environment. A teenage boy in the house and only one PC being shared as game machine and PVR is a disaster waiting to happen. A couple with No kids or a single person with the same exact machine and life is easy....

[indolikaa]

I'd rather excentuate the potential problems than the potential smoothness so the original poster can't say we played down the problems.

Point.

And I'll reiterate my thoughts: Rule #1, Capture video on a dedicated machine.

Any questions? Please see Rule #1 for the appropriate answer.

A couple with No kids or a single person with the same exact machine and life is easy....

Careful! Don't forget about the 18-34 demographic bracket. We purchase somewhere between 38% and 45% of the games for ourselves!

[PolarBearWY]

I'm sorry, but that is a BIG issue if you have to set it both in the PVR and the cable/satellite box. And the first time you forget to set it in both places you will see how it becomes an issue. I spent quite a bit of time with a PVR and a non compatible Cable Box.

I wasn't trying to show that you didn't know what you were talking about. I was thinking more along the lines that you get the cable box that you get. It's not like you can shop for them at your local cable company. Most cities in the US only have one cable company available to residents. Either your cable needs a descrambler or it doesn't. Digital cable requires a descrambler, no? And the issue with satellite capture is moot, too, no? I don't know of any video capture cards that can tune to Dish Network or DirecTV channels without the receivers. That's what I was thinking about.

And most capture cards have TV tuners right? I assume so. Every capture card I have ever shopped for or owned has had a VHF tuner built-in.

You really need to learn to read what has been written. Are you a Democrat? (Just curious) I said "many of the things you said don't have to be considered." In other words, they are optional considerations. If you are screwed with a scrambled cable signal, and you need a cable box, then you don't need to worry about looking for a capture card that will tune, right? After all, that kind of equipment doesn't exist. If you are using DishNetwork or DirecTV, then you don't have to worry about looking for a capture card that will tune, right? After all, that kind of equipment doesn't exist.

Again, not very realistic, several open IEs, what were you doing with them. And a game of Free Cell? Not much of resource hog...What about a game like Medal of Honor, can you Capture DV and play a resource hog game as well?

I doubt a 200 GHz (yeah, GHz) computer with 632,246,563 GB of PC800,000,000,000 DQDQDQDR RAM could run Medal of Honor and capture video. I'd say the limitations are in our OS, not the computer. That's why I got an XBox anyway.

Have you had several IEs open lately? If I remember right, they use up about 37MB of memory, which could be nearly 15-30% of a computer's memory resources.

[PolarBearWY]

edited