One more question about VHS...

[hardrock]

Hi everyone.

As a lot of people do, I have a lot of VHS tapes and I want to, at least, keep the same quality of the VHS in a (S)VCD file. I have done a lot of captures and specially with old tapes I get a lot of macroblocks in the final result; but with good tapes sometimes I get too. I want to improve the quality of my captures. I have a JVC Hi-Fi Stereo VHS and I use composite cables to connect it to my capture card (Pixelview PlayTV PRO). If I get a a VCR with S-VIDEO out or another capture card, will I get better results? I don't have any problems with dropping frames, I only want get better results. If you can help me, great 8)

Thanks

[rayban]

How do you capture? What resolution and what specs are you using? I will also be doing captures soon on my old 8mm and vhs home movies. I also want the best capture. From what I see here, it is pretty much a function of how you capture like AVI is the best way to capture to get the best quality especially if you are going to edit the capture as well. So if your machine can capture AVI without dropping frames using your analog setup, then I think you can't get any better than that. Unless you invest in one of those ADVC-100 which I don't know if it would actually make your old sources become better? Anyone know?

[jdizzy40]

My experience is that you can't make a bad source better. What you see is what you get. And I have yet to see a VCR with an S-Video connection.

[nwf_snake]

Well Dizzy, we aint in Kansas no more!

There are plenty of S-VHS VCRs. I have a nice JVC model that I have had for 13 years that has S-video input and output connectors on it!

You need to get out of the state more!

[hardrock]

How do you capture? What resolution and what specs are you using?

I capture with iuVCR up 740x480 using Huffyuv or PicVideo. Take a look at my computer specs.

I have a nice JVC model that I have had for 13 years that has S-video input and output connectors on it!

Using S-video output will give better results than using composite when capturing from VHS?

[hwoodwar]

Hardrock:

S-Video "should" give a higher quality output than a composite signal. If you have both S-Video output on your VCR and S-Video input on your capture card, than by all means use it.

I personally tried S-Video on my setup and "I" could not see a significant difference. Furthermore the only VCR I have with S-Video output flashes to the screen a "Video Calibration" label when the auto-tracking kicks in to adjust the video clarity. Unfortunately this gets recorded. So, instead I am using another VCR with composite output that allows for manual tracking (that I can set ahead of time) and does not put a "label" on the screen.

It sounds like you are not having any capture problems as you are not "dropping frames". Hopefully you are already capturing to avi format. I would suggest encoding with TMPGenc or CCE.

Macroblocks are rarely related to the type of input used. They are mainly related to the encoded video bitrate. If you are using TMPGenc or CCE to encode, the two easy things you can do is increase the encoded Video bitrate and change the motion search precision.

If these SVCDs are for your use only I would suggest you try to determine the maximum video bitrate that your DVD player can handle. Do some short, say 5 minute CBR tests of different bitrates up to 5 or 6kbps. If your DVD player works fine with CD-RW disks than you may want to use them for the tests, rather than waste a bunch of CD-Rs. Work your way up to the 5 or 6kbps and when you find the first one where the image starts to "break up" or "skip" on your standalone, then make note of the previous video bitrate, that worked fine. Then (again if these are stricktly for use on your own system only) you can use that video bitrate as a maximum video bitrate in 2-pass VBR (but if the captured video bitrate was lower that use it instead.)

Here is an example of what I mean by the last two sentences; with VirtualDub, I can watch the video bitrate as it is being captured, or analize the avi afterwards to determine the average bitrate. Lets say this comes out to 4000kbps. If I determine the max my DVD player can handle is 5000kbps I would use 4000kbps as the max value for 2-Pass VBR. Anything higher would be a waste.



I primarily use 2-Pass VBR. 2-Pass VBR goes through and analizes the entire movie, and then inteligently assigns a higher birate to the areas that need a higher bitrate for better quality (such as dark, and/or fast-action scenes. Also areas that can get by with a lower than average bitrate are set to the lower value.

By the way, 2-Pass VBR takes the longest time to encode, than any of the other rate mode control methods, this is largely because it goes through the whole movie twice.

For the most part I do not do "manual" SVCD encoding. However, I do, do plenty of manual encoding to XSVCD, as I do set the maximum video bitrate higher than the standard for SVCD and use CVD resolution (352 x 480 NTSC) The settings I use most frequently are minimum 1000 kbits/sec, average 2000-2500 kbits/sec (so much of the video is within the SVCD bitrate specification) and a maximum of 3500-4000 kbits/sec. Most of the time this gives me a good-excellant 45-50 minute XSVCD (from a good quality source.) At times I have gone as low as 1700 kbits/sec and maintained a good to excellant quality video. I use the above settings because all of my three DVD players can handle up to at least 5000 kbits/sec with XSVCDs and SVCDs and I do not intend on sharing my CDs. In my own tests I've done better with 2-Pass VBR (best resolution, with most available play time) than any other rate mode control.

If you want to remain inside the SVCD specification. I would suggest trying 2-Pass VBR minimum 500, average 1700-2000 and a maximum of 2520, do some tests and see how you like it.

Set motion search precision to high, also. This helps some.

[jdizzy40]

S-Video on a VCR for 13 years. Now thats a hard one to believe. Maybe you should go out and try to buy a new VCR with S-Video. Don't think you-ll find one. And I'm not in Kansas - Missouri so show me fat lip. One thing I can't stand is someone who first lies and then tells another lie to cover the first. I would sugget to you to first understand the difference between an s-video connector and the one on your 13 year old system. better yet take a picture of it and post it. Maybe you should learn the history of s-video and when it came out on consumer products. And finally I spent 22 years in the Air Force all over including Japan, PI and South Korea. So yes I have been out of Missouri. Small brain!

[fmctm1sw]

S-Video on a VCR for 13 years. Now thats a hard one to believe. Maybe you should go out and try to buy a new VCR with S-Video. Don't think you-ll find one. And I'm not in Kansas - Missouri so show me fat lip. One thing I can't stand is someone who first lies and then tells another lie to cover the first. I would sugget to you to first understand the difference between an s-video connector and the one on your 13 year old system. better yet take a picture of it and post it. Maybe you should learn the history of s-video and when it came out on consumer products. And finally I spent 22 years in the Air Force all over including Japan, PI and South Korea. So yes I have been out of Missouri. Small brain!

Wow... I don't think he meant anything by it. I'm not taking sides but I don't believe the connector on a SVHS vcr is any differnt from any other S-video connector. BUT, I do not own one so I may be wrong. I do know that s-video has been around a while and I did see a svhs vcr at best buy the other day. Good to see you spent time in the service. I assume you were at Misawa (where I'm going).

[hardrock]

Please someone who haves a VCR with S-video and composite line-out post a shot from a VHS using each on connection!

[Vejita-sama]

SVHS decks have been out for years, pay no attention to him

[mmasw]

I have 2 Mitsubishi VCR's, both of which have S-Video output. At the minimum, svhs vcr's have been avilable for 4-5 years.

I've been using an s-video signal to capture analog video from the VCR's for 3 years. I've used an old Snazzi PCI card, an ATI AIW 128, and most recently and ATI AIW 8500 DV.

Because I had limited time to mess around, I capped a lot of video in VCD compliant MPG-1. When I record that video to either a VCD or a DVD-R and play in on my standalone dvd player the video is approximately comparable to a EP mode VHS tape.....average quality at best.

More recently....since I got the newer ATI card, I have been capturing in MPG-2 for the purposes of burning to a DVD.

Certainly, if you plan on editing any of the video, it should be capped in an AVi codec like Huffy or uncompressed. Editing any MPG-2 is similar to stuffing buttermilk up a wounded bear's behind with a hot fork.

I've seen a lot of posts about 8000Kbs DVD captures for VHS sources....the quality thing. Frankly, I think that's BS. I've experimented a great deal with the bitrate and have settled in around 2750Kbs-3000Kbs as the target bitrate capture. After burning to a DVD, and comparing to the VHS tape, to my eye, on a 36 inch Mitsubishi, it's about the same. And it's nice to get around 200 minutes of video on one disk.

Cap to MPG-2, use UleadMF2 to author, and after about 50 DVD's, no audio sync issues yet.

[Fomalhaut]

And I have yet to see a VCR with an S-Video connection.

Take a look at this:
http://www.epinions.com/content_84803096196

[VideoTechMan]

S-Video on a VCR for 13 years. Now thats a hard one to believe. Maybe you should go out and try to buy a new VCR with S-Video. Don't think you-ll find one

Well, I can say that SVHS VCR's have been around for several years. You dont see them in many "consumer" stores because its usually more expensive than regular VHS units. I dont mean the so-called SVHS-ET type vcr's that records a compatible SVHS signal on regular VHS tape, I mean true SVHS format. And two material recorded in SVHS format doesnt play on VHS units. I have the Sony SLV-R1000 SVHS model and I bought it from a video pro shop...costed me about $1,000. There isnt too much difference in the quality, it mostly relates to the number of horizontal lines. VHS quality is equivilent to about 250 lines, where SVHS are about 425. Either way, I would record in SVHS format if you want a slightly better picture quality...the higher the quality the better i always say. But it is true, no capture card can make your original footage better.....if the original source was crappy and poor quality, then that's what is going to get captured....nothing you can do about it. GIGO as they say.

VideoTechMan

[hardrock]

If I use a TBC will I get better image quality when capturing from poor tapes?

btw, thanks for all of your replies until now

[Jester700]

A few things:
1) S-video and SVHS have been around since at least 1989, when I worked at a Circuit City. That's 14 years.

2) Hypothetically, an s-vid connection should be better, but with regular VHS it usually isn't visibly so in reality, thus manufacturers don't waste the money on them for regular VHS machines.

3) TBC CAN be a good thing. Even the half-assed one in my JVC SVHS deck can make a considerable improvement on some tapes. On others it can look worse, but it can always be turned off.

4) to the guy with the flashing "video calibration" message: if it's a JVC, let it calibrate once, then turn off the auto calibrate, rewind, & record.

[txpharoah]

To jester700: you're on the money. Nice to see somebody that knows what's up.

=

S-video can be better than RCA, but not likely. Your VHS footage is no better than the RCA. Only SVHS can tell a difference, and even then its minimal.

You CAN and I HAVE improved footage from VHS. It takes knowledge and equipment and software and PATIENCE.

I suggest a JVC HRS9800 SVHS VCR and using its video and audio filters. Also add a dataVideo TBC-1000 timebase corrector (comes with frame synching). The ATI card lets you adjust color and other settings on capture. The filters in Premiere or TMPGenc work great too. All these toys make the difference. But they'll cost you.

You cannot "perfect" anything, but you can surely make the difference VERY noticeable even to the average idiot. Color problems are the easiest to fix (such as correcting old analog PAL-NTSC conversions that are usually shades of purple and green) as well as video shakes and wiggles (removed by TBC).

If I get time someday, I'll make a guide for restoration and have LS add it to his VHS->DVD guide (link in my signature). It is not easy, and it takes money to do.

I've never seen s-video on regular VHS. Thats usually for S-VHS video, thats existed for more than a decade now. I'd also avoid Panasonic and Sony SVHS machines. The filters, if any, do not work as well as the ones in the JVC machines. JVC invented VHS in 1976 and S-VHS in 1987, and the machines do quite well, better than the others, and at half the price sometimes. JVC = Victor Company of Japan. (FYI: Do not buy a JVC 2000-5000 SVHS VCR expecting quality. Those are junk. Get 7000-9000 versions with all the goodies.)

Capturing to AVI is a waste of time if you just convert VHS. The difference in MPEG2 capture quality and AVI is negligent when your source is ONLY VHS. Others will argue, and I let them. It's their extra time, not mine. The AVI process will take much longer, require more HD, and not make much difference in the end. == If you want to RESTORE or hardcore EDIT, then consider the AVI format and using TMPGenc or Premiere (and encode with MainConcept).

[energy80s]

Panasonic and JVC are the same company. S-VHS has been sold in Northern Ireland since 1988. If you only have a standard VHS tape, outputting it throught the S Video connector won't make any real dufference as the signal is composite to begin with. It's only with the split Y-C signals that the difference becomes apparent.

[SatStorm]

Many VCRs and Satellite receivers, state "S-VHS" and not "S-Video", but it is the same thing.

The story is like this: When SVHS VCRs turned "mainstream" in the european market (early 90s), the S-Video connector appeared on various high tech/end Video equipment. It is the only signal beyond Composite the VCRs understand.
But because many people are stupid around the world, some companies (with British and American market knowledge), decided to name the S-Video Connector as S-VHS connector, just to point to the users that this connection if for their new S-VHS VCRs. That somehow continues untill today on many equipment.

Anyway, you ask the typical question: How to succeed the "perfect" transfer from VHS to any digital disc format.
I 've answered this more than 3 times the last week, so I guess you don't use the search button (as usually...)

Well, once again:

You have 2 roots: With filtering and without filtering.
Filtering ain't only to clean the picture visualy, it is also for clean the picture on things we don't see but the encoders DO see.
So, or you grabb @ 720 X 480 (NTSC) or 352 X 576 (PAL) and you encode (for both) @ 352 X 576/480 with an average bitrate about 3500 - 4000kb/s (try: min 1000, average 4000, max 7000) and you get visually identical picture the source, or you filter and you can low the average bitrate about 2500 - 3000.
We talking of course always for Multipass VBR...

The question rise again: How to filter.
Well, you need at least 2 filters: Random Noise Reduction filter (to stablise the picture) and Static Noise Reduction (to clean the statin noise)
There are also many secondary filters to play with: Smart Smoother, Video de-noise, Unsharp Mask, rmPAL (for pal), etc.
Then, some very - very advance steps: Reconstruct the progressive frames from the fields and correct the colours (neccessary for NTSC)There are also filters/ solutions for this.

If you learn all those stuff, then yes, it is possible to transfer your VHS tapes to CD/DVD with "low" bitrates. What that means:
about 1300 - 1500 kb/s for 352 X 288/240 (the native resolution of VHS) or about 2700 - 3000 for 352 X 576/480 (the native resolution of SVHS).

As you see, grabb and encode with a higher bitrate is much easier. Ain't that fun but it is much easier! It is your choice...

[KTH]

SatStorm is correct in explaining that S-video connectors & S-VHS are both referring to the same type of connectors. I have worked for a high end A/V store for 15 years and have seen S-Video since it first came out on S-VHS VCR's and on Laser Disc players. Basically all an S-Video jack does is keep the Color & B/W signals separate. Where as in a composite jack the signals are combined. Below I have a picture the back of my Mitsubishi HS-U69 S-VHS VCR (This unit cost me $600.00). You can clearly see the S-Video Jacks marked.

[boumira]

There is an lebotrate procedure for getting the best DVD from your VHS tapes. Go to:

http://lordsmurf.hypermart.net/conversion/dvdguide.htm

[Fred©]

Oi hardrock,

falo português, mas para o grupo, melhor minha opinião em inglês

I believe that a SVHS connector will not resolve your problem... The macroblocks you see is because you tried to capture more information from a VHS source (320x240 resolution) into a 720x480 format than it really has. You can't fill the excess, only with blockiness... IMHO !

Well, I do good jobs with VirtualDub. That is how I do: I capture with 352x480 format (cropped borders, to avoid TMPGEnc conversion needed later). I use PicVideo codec, set to 2 fields over 240 lines option enabled. (yes, I know VCD is deinterlaced only...)

Then I frameserve the AVI into TMPGEnc with SMART DEINTERLACE (a virtualdub plugin you find in an specific site reported in VirtualDub HP) and a VHS filter ( I dont remember the name of the filter). I use their default setup.

BTW, I noticed there is an order to load these plugins. The wrong order will REALLY INCREASE the time of conversion! Sorry, I dont remember the right order now...

The results are great for VHS tapes.

Give it a try.

Fred©

[Jester700]

One note: Panasonic & JVC are NOT the same company. Matsushita electric owns Panasonic & Technics, among others. But the Japan Victor Company is a different entity.

[fmctm1sw]

Super VHS debuted in august 1987 according to a betamax enthusiast site. The dead horse has been beaten in to glue.....

[energy80s]

One note: Panasonic & JVC are NOT the same company. Matsushita electric owns Panasonic & Technics, among others. But the Japan Victor Company is a different entity.

Sorry to tell you that you are wrong. Matsushita owns them both (or at least did do when I was involved in the video trade).

[txpharoah]

Correct, JVC and Panasonic are both subsidiaries of Matshushita, but the JVC product lines and Panasonic product lines are completely independent of one another. (Example, I don't see Superman with big rabbit ears or Bugs Bunny wearing a cape, even though AOLTW owns both. And AOL doesn't say "ya got mail doc". )

The JVC equipment is far superior in the sub-$2,000 category than Panasonic stuff. (That was my only real point here.) After that dollar amount, we can debate, but not necessary here really. I'd be safe to say 99.9% of the people in these forums cannot afford the real stuff anyway (even I cannot, personally, though my company sure can).

[fortension]

If you're capturing to huffy and you see macroblocking, that's a problem, since you shouldn't. There's enough tape noise to rip up a block. It should look like the tape, or there's something wrong with the capture.
Then, if you care about the quality, run it through some filters in vdub. I usually stick with 1) smart deinterlace 2) 2d cleaner 3) temporal smoother 4) resize - and it should look better. There are other choices for your filter chain. If I'm using TMPG, I tend to like their deinterlacing/IVTC routines more than vdub filters.

The only difference between composite and svideo inputs I can imagine would be a little dot crawl around outlines, and the filters should take care of it.

[Jester700]

One note: Panasonic & JVC are NOT the same company. Matsushita electric owns Panasonic & Technics, among others. But the Japan Victor Company is a different entity.

Sorry to tell you that you are wrong. Matsushita owns them both (or at least did do when I was involved in the video trade).

I'll be dogged. You're right. They were never repped or combined together when I was selling audio & video. My bad; thanks for the info.

But as mentioned, they are definitely not rebadged versions of each other's gear, in audio OR video. They are definitely different lines.

[nwf_snake]

Dizzy! Get off the coffee dude! I was in no way trying to insult you, just having some fun! I did buy my JVC S-VHS VCR back in December of 1990, which isn't "quite" 13 years, but will be this December. I got it when I purchased my Hi-8 Sony camcorder which had the S-video outputs. I wanted to back up my Hi-8 tapes to something better than regular VHS quality. Of course now I am in the process of backing them up to my Pioneer A05 .

[txpharoah]

Oops. No post intended, just reading.

[Bob W]

My experience is that you can't make a bad source better. What you see is what you get. And I have yet to see a VCR with an S-Video connection.

The JVC HR-S2901U has S-video out. I have one which I bought at CompUSA for $100.