Subtitle Edit and sign text trajectory

[nobrand]

Can't see this issue here - sorry if anyone already posted about it.

I have some experience with Subtitle Edit but am pretty much a level above newbie. Total noob to videohelp.com!
Anyone here that can help explain how I can produce translations on signs (in this case from kanji to latin alphabet in anime) with correct "angles"? Hard to explain but I can never get the translated text to match the up-right trajectory of the in-anime sign, check uploaded picture. I can use {\fr}, {\fry} or {\frx} but they never seem to become straight-up standing text - only skewed and slanted degrees, when I try to fix it. 3D view point/anchor point seem to be an issue here. A "z" factor is missing, maybe.
The image shows my problem - "my" infirmary is just slanted to match some angles, but I need the text to stand straight up as well, just like the original sign text, not just slant inwards, like in my pic! "My" infirmary needs to be leaned back.
I fear I'm hopeless at explaining my point; I hope someone get what I want to convey here.


[Attachment 86348 - Click to enlarge]

Praise you if you can help me.

[krykmoon]

It's not always very easy to align such texts.. where there is perspective.

EDIT: done some test. It should be a simple {\fry} rotation, but you have to change the origin position {\org} accordingly to the picture to match the perspective

PS: KaiNote has a practical set of tools to rotate "visually" the subtitle around every axis in the preview window.. and such tools help a lot, in these situations.

[nobrand]

It's not always very easy to align such texts.. where there is perspective.

EDIT: done some test. It should be a simple {\fry} rotation, but you have to change the origin position {\org} accordingly to the picture to match the perspective

PS: KaiNote has a practical set of tools to rotate "visually" the subtitle around every axis in the preview window.. and such tools help a lot, in these situations.

KaiNote is not something I've worked in, SE is my thing. Aegisub also not my thing, really.

Thanks a bunch, never saw "\org" and thus never experimented with it. Have to find info about what it is and how it works, tinker a little, and see if I can get it done right. I'll get back to you when I've checked it out. Thank you for your input.

[nobrand]

It's not always very easy to align such texts.. where there is perspective.

EDIT: done some test. It should be a simple {\fry} rotation, but you have to change the origin position {\org} accordingly to the picture to match the perspective

PS: KaiNote has a practical set of tools to rotate "visually" the subtitle around every axis in the preview window.. and such tools help a lot, in these situations.

----------
Mod hasn't okay'd my previous post yet, so can't edit/update...
I've tried to find information about SE + "\org", but that opened another question; where, exactly, is the anchor point? Which corner of the word or sentence is anchor, there are four and it can't be all of them, I'm guessing. There is just too little info, just a few, not-so-informative lines on www.nikse.dk and I'm a bit frustrated. With the little information I got, I tried to "upright" my "infirmary" with the help of \org, but I had no luck, maybe because of not understanding anchor points.

Krykmoon, you said you done some tests. I've uploaded the complete picture of kanji sing "infirmary" - would you give it a try and see if you can get the text the way I intend it to be? I just can't get it to work. I'd also need the "code" or full sentence from SE (don't know what to call it) so I can understand what is required of me to do.
If you don't want to give it a try, thank you anyway.

[Attachment 86365 - Click to enlarge]

[nobrand]

Sorry krykmoon, I don't understand why I asked you to use a picture to fix a sub - I apologize, hahaha, I really feel stupid! I've been sitting with this all day long and am none the wiser, but it seems, a bit loopy. Hahaha, how embarressing. Could you perhaps use the example in your test, the one you mentioned? I just need to see the visual, that it can be done, and have the code/sentence of it.
/Dumb a** nobrand

[krykmoon]

You were trying to do something like this ?

A couple of minutes tampering with Kainote positioning tools.. with more effort you can do even better (the perspective alignment is not very precise).


[Attachment 86372 - Click to enlarge]

[nobrand]

YES! That is precisely what I was after, and it looks great; far better than what I could do with SE. Praise!
But I don't use Kainote, I use only Subtitle Edit and I don't want to switch since I'm comfortable with it.
Perhaps it's not possible with SE, at least with my obvious limited knowledge about anchor points and
\org; I don't understand the mechanisms behind it. Do you have an understanding of SE and could guide me
with that? But it looks great, it's inspiring to see that it can be done at all. Thanks for this, truly.

I also realized that I don't get the x,y-position very easily with eye measure; I've been looking for a VLC addon,
or somthing similar, that shows the position of the mouse on video screen, but no luck so far. Would be simple to get
exact position like that. Logic would suggest that a video with 640x360p, would have center on 320x180p but that
is not the case, not for the videos I've tried. The more I tinker with SE, the more questions arise. Good to be alive!

[krykmoon]

It was many years since the last time I used Subtitle Edit... but I downloaded it and tried to do the same.

Yes, it's not to difficult to achieve (quite) the same result.


[Attachment 86377 - Click to enlarge]


[Attachment 86378 - Click to enlarge]

[nobrand]

That is very interesting. I didn't recognize that negative numbers (-19, -0.27) were even used. I never saw "\fay" before but found it on nikse.dk under something called "text shearing". Now I have \org and \fay that I never knew of, and negative numbers.

Your picture looks great, letters standing upright, but when I took your "code" and pasted it into my SE... not the same results as your pic. My "infirmary" is still slanting inwards, and doesn't align with straight up trajectory. You also didn't use \fr, which I have too, or it's way of mark. I don't understand why there is a difference and since anime contains plenty of signs like "infirmary", it feels important for me to grasp. But I don't. Possibly my dyscalculia prevents me for "getting it" but I don't like to give up. For me to lean my "infirmary" backwards to uptight position, which do I need to tinker with; -19 or -0.27? I tried both, both up and down, but to no satisfaction. They influence each other, maybe? And how does \org and/or anchor point play a part here? You mentioned that I had to change perspective, and I get that, but how is that done? As a person with dyscalculia, I grasp these concepts intellectually but I can't execute them. I apologize that I seem dense in this, not much I can do about it.
Thanks for all your help so far.

UPDATE: I think I solved it! I tried to use {\fax-0.1} - thanks to you opening my eyes to {\fay} and negative numbers - and it looks as beautiful as your pics! At least to those two signs I tried. Wow... I had this problem for years.

This ordeal has made me start dreaming of creating a subtitle edit program with every single thing imaginable in it (from anime perspective, at least), with fully customizable parts and tool buttons so you can shape your program the way you feel most comfortable with for your specific work.

I can't thank you enough for helping me here, moon. In lieu of real ones, I hereby send you a digital, extra big chocolate chip cookie, with peanuts and grateful praise - but with no allergens at all! If I get more problems, I hope you'll help me again.
All praise to you!

[krykmoon]

The effect of values may be very different because (from what I understand) those values are relative to the position of the subtitles inside the picture frame and not absolute values. How were your subtitles aligned ?

When I spoke of perspective.. I was referring to KaiNote, that has a sort of 3d grid in the preview windows that you can rotate and translate and may be of help (or not) when trying to align your text with the perspective of the source material.

Subtitle Edit doesn't have anything like that, it's A LOT more basic.. you can perform very few operation.. so I changed the values until the result felt "right", visually.. without any kind of perspective "reference" (if not the source material itself).

OK, I'm glad you succeeded in the end! Hope you'll do a lot of anime subs!

[nobrand]

Oh, I see. I did download "Kainote" and took a look - my eyes could never get adjusted to that small text and buttons. But I do understand what you mean with SE being pretty basic - the screen position was there in Kainote, for example. Didn't find some of the settings so I would never be able to change text within the subs, that text being no bigger than font size 0.5... Also didn't find the perspective part you told me about. Although you meant Kainote, I observed that perspective is part of what makes the upright text in angled, or sheared, text a bit difficult. If the sign would be smack in the center, \fax wouldn't be necessary.

My subtitle for "infirmary" was aligned through simple "{\pos(X,X)} and {\fr}. Only needed to add {\fax} to "draw" infirmary back a bit to align it to |, straight, upright text.

Domo arigatou, Tsuki-sama.

[krykmoon]

Oh, I see. I did download "Kainote" and took a look - my eyes could never get adjusted to that small text and buttons.

Under the menu FILE->Settings.. you can find Editor-> Advanced ... and choose a font and a font size (as I did. It was very problematic for me too.. with default settings)

The most amazing feature of KaiNote is its Style Manager. You can have multiple libraries of subtitle styles, and they're very easy and practical to manage. Open a subtitle, choose a Library, copy from/to, edit.. you can do everything with a few clicks.

The workflow is a lot faster and streamlined than with Subtitle Edit, once you get used with the software. Everything is ways easier to achieve.
KaiNote itself is also much more responsive and faster..

[nobrand]

I have downloaded KaiNote and I won't remove it. When I have the time, I'll try to get into it since I did sense some potential. I'll use binoculars to find the settings, haha. It's always equally overwhelming (not knowing where everything is) and exciting (discovering the new features and make better subs) with possible replacement software. I'll make sure to keep "Style manager" in mind and search for the feature that handles this threads topic.