WHICH TBC on ebay would be a good one?

[snafoo]

I know it is paramount to have a TBC in order to get a really good capture.Which TBC would be a good one to buy from ebay? I know it should be a Frame TBC and not a Line TBC. Everyone knows the issue with a quality Frame TBC. It is THE PRICE! It is going to cost and arm and a leg, especially the Datavideo brand ones. I have seen the Datavideo TBC-1000 on ebay for $1,500. I don't have the dough for one of those. I do have the dough for a cheaper one. Would anyone out there recommend a mid-price range Frame (compared to the Datavideo ones) TBC that would help me produce quality captures? I'd appreciate it! Does a S-VHS VCR (JVC, Panasonic) provide a Frame TBC, or is it a Line TBC? I am all ears for any suggestions!

Thank you!

[dellsam34]

It is more important to get a decent VCR first, Frame TBC is not going to change the visual quality if you have a low end VCR, Once you have a good working VCR and stable capture card then try capturing you may get away with not having a frame TBC if your tapes are in good condition.

[snafoo]

It is more important to get a decent VCR first, Frame TBC is not going to change the visual quality if you have a low end VCR, Once you have a good working VCR and stable capture card then try capturing you may get away with not having a frame TBC if your tapes are in good condition.

I assume a JVC or Panasonic S-VHS VCR is the obvious one to get, correct? I have a Panasonic VHS/DVD Recorder unit (DMR-ES48V). I also have an Elgato video capture device. My tapes play beautifully in this VCR, but they are 40 year old tapes. I guess the JVC/Panasonic S-VHS route would would play them even better, eh? I also assume that an IOData GV-USB2 would be a better video capture device, as that captures at 720x480, where the Elgato only captures at 640x480, right?

[Alwyn]

where the Elgato only captures at 640x480, right?

Not right. Ticking "preserve source format" will allegedly give you the native frame size (720x480), but that's in the Elgato capture software (not desirable because it captures straight into MP4). Try a lossless capture with VDub or AmarecTV and see what frame size is available. My AmarecTV capture guide here.

I have an EZ-48V. Great machine, although mine is PAL. Mine was brand new when I acquired it a couple of years ago. At this point in the cycle, head condition matters. I have a JVC S-VHS VCR and it's picture is not overly marvellous compared to the 48. The advantage of the 48 is it has the Panny Diga stabilisation system, similar to the ES-15 (poor man's line TBC). If you have a stable picture, straight vertical edges, especially on the right side, and you're in-sync, you're home and hosed.

My tapes play beautifully in this VCR

If you're game, do a short lossless capture (15-30 seconds, max 500mb) and attach it here. The experts can critique the quality so you can make a decision on spending more $$$$.

[dellsam34]

If the DMR-ES48V has HDMI out try it in the 480i mode, You may find the internal analog to digital chip inside the player better than anything you've tried before, The catch is to get a good HDMI capture card that doesn't butcher the 480i output from the player.

[snafoo]

where the Elgato only captures at 640x480, right?

Not right. Ticking "preserve source format" will allegedly give you the native frame size (720x480), but that's in the Elgato capture software (not desirable because it captures straight into MP4). Try a lossless capture with VDub or AmarecTV and see what frame size is available. My AmarecTV capture guide here.

I have an EZ-48V. Great machine, although mine is PAL. Mine was brand new when I acquired it a couple of years ago. At this point in the cycle, head condition matters. I have a JVC S-VHS VCR and it's picture is not overly marvellous compared to the 48. The advantage of the 48 is it has the Panny Diga stabilisation system, similar to the ES-15 (poor man's line TBC). If you have a stable picture, straight vertical edges, especially on the right side, and you're in-sync, you're home and hosed.

My tapes play beautifully in this VCR

If you're game, do a short lossless capture (15-30 seconds, max 500mb) and attach it here. The experts can critique the quality so you can make a decision on spending more $$$$.

I made the capture. it has graininess to it. this VCR plays better than my Sharp that i've been using. Let me know how i can do better. I captured with Virtualdub 2.

[Sharc]

Crushed darks. First set the levels right by adjusting the proc-amp settings of your capture device.
(Why did you capture into RGB? Use YUV instead.)

Just trying to "fix" it in post processing something like this may improve it a bit.

AVISource("rolling stones capture sample.avi")
ConverttoYV12(interlaced=true)
assumeTFF()
levels(16,1.6,215,16,235,coring=false)
QTGMC(preset="fast")
SMdegrain()

[snafoo]

Crushed darks. First set the levels right by adjusting the proc-amp settings of your capture device.
(Why did you capture into RGB? Use YUV instead.)

Just trying to "fix" it in post processing something like this may improve it a bit.

AVISource("rolling stones capture sample.avi")
ConverttoYV12(interlaced=true)
assumeTFF()
levels(16,1.6,215,16,235,coring=false)
QTGMC(preset="fast")
SMdegrain()

hi. In the capture pin section of virtualdub, i tried to switch capturing to YUV but it wouldn't let me. Only option is to capture to UYVY. Do i input the Code stuff into Virtualdub?

[Sharc]

Crushed darks. First set the levels right by adjusting the proc-amp settings of your capture device.
(Why did you capture into RGB? Use YUV instead.)

Just trying to "fix" it in post processing something like this may improve it a bit.

AVISource("rolling stones capture sample.avi")
ConverttoYV12(interlaced=true)
assumeTFF()
levels(16,1.6,215,16,235,coring=false)
QTGMC(preset="fast")
SMdegrain()

hi. In the capture pin section of virtualdub, i tried to switch capturing to YUV but it wouldn't let me. Only option is to capture to UYVY. Do i input the Code stuff into Virtualdub?

Sorry, may bad. Your capture is in YUV (UYVY). Never mind.

[lordsmurf]

If the DMR-ES48V has HDMI out try it in the 480i mode, You may find the internal analog to digital chip inside the player better than anything you've tried before, The catch is to get a good HDMI capture card that doesn't butcher the 480i output from the player.

Most of the "combo" VCR/DVD units internally composite down the source, regardless of s-video/HDMI/etc output. So quality is obliterated the moment that it plays the tape.

NTSC HDMI output is also always processed (wrong rec601/709, deinterlaced, etc). Messy.

It's not at all a quality S-VHS VCR with line TBC.

I assume a JVC or Panasonic S-VHS VCR is the obvious one to get, correct?

Correct. And JVC should be your first S-VHS VCR.

This thread is starting to get sidetracked by the silly cheapskate mentality. Don't give into that. Cheapskates mostly just screw around, and nothing is actually improving. You had the right idea when you started this thread.

I also have an Elgato video capture device.

Terrible device, replace it as well.

I know it is paramount to have a TBC in order to get a really good capture.

Correct.

Which TBC would be a good one to buy from ebay? Everyone knows the issue with a quality Frame TBC. It is THE PRICE! It is going to cost and arm and a leg, especially the Datavideo brand ones. I have seen the Datavideo TBC-1000 on ebay for $1,500.

eBay is 99%+ resellers now, and they wouldn't a TBC from a toaster. Most of those devices are in various states of failure, but the moron sellers have no idea. All they see is a black box of gold, without any care for true functionality. Newbies gets suckered into bad buys -- or worse, created myths about TBCs "not working" or "reducing quality" because they bought a malfunctioning POS without realizing it. eBay has become a source of TBC issues, including a source of FUD and BS.

I don't have the dough for one of those. I do have the dough for a cheaper one. Would anyone out there recommend a mid-price range Frame (compared to the Datavideo ones) TBC that would help me produce quality captures? I'd appreciate it! Does a S-VHS VCR (JVC, Panasonic) provide a Frame TBC, or is it a Line TBC? I am all ears for any suggestions!

S-VHS VCRs can have line TBCs, not frame.

You really have two choices here:
- cheapest: non-TBC JVC S-VHS, combined with an ES10/15,
- better (though maybe worse): JVC S-VHS with TBC, ES10/15 purely for the non-TBC frame sync. Now, it depends on your tapes. The ES10/15 line TBC cannot be turned off for passthrough, and sometimes the JVC TBC collides with it. But that JVC TBC can correct better.

The signal quality is harmed by the ES10/15, it's not transparent. More ideal is that $1500+ of gear.

There's a 3rd method, and better than the above. It's the JVC TBC VCR + a weaker frame TBC (DVK, etc). But there's really none available that I can see right now. Those units have been disappearing for a few years now. You wouldn't want to buy from eBay anyway, as those often need modding (that cannot be instructed to the uninformed/newbies, due to variables that require TBC experience/knowledge)

Once you have a good working VCR and stable capture card then try capturing you may get away with not having a frame TBC if your tapes are in good condition.

This almost never happens.

To keep it simple (KISS) for newbies, line-timed output is just the X*Y axis, what you see onscreen. Frame is more temporal, the Z axis. Line cleans the image, frame cleans the signal. You need both. Some sort of frame timing is 100% required.

What is true is that good non-TBC frame syncs, combined with strong line TBC, can sometimes half-ass work, and give passable results. That's the ES10/15 type TBC(ish) method. While not ideal, it's a method for lower-end transfers (DIY'er at home, just a few tapes, doesn't want to spend a lot). It's viable to a point. Quality isn't perfect, but passable, you can do far worse.

[Alwyn]

You can set the "levels" ie the Brightness and Contrast using the histogram in VDub. I have written a guide here.

That code is for AVISynth.

[dellsam34]

Most of the "combo" VCR/DVD units internally composite down the source, regardless of s-video/HDMI/etc output. So quality is obliterated the moment that it plays the tape.

We don't know that for sure, unless someone posts some samples or analyses the processing chip, The common sense of circuit design is to get the HDMI from the digital out pin of the digital processing unit, makes no economical sense to add an extra ADC just to feed the HDMI out.

[lollo]

Most of the "combo" VCR/DVD units internally composite down the source, regardless of s-video/HDMI/etc output. So quality is obliterated the moment that it plays the tape.

Not always. Actually, I wonder when. Do you have any fact to post? (there are several in this forum and elsewhere showing the opposite).

NTSC HDMI output is also always processed (wrong rec601/709, deinterlaced, etc). Messy.

No. Deinterlaced??? Wrong ColorSpace??? What are you talking about???

Once you have a good working VCR and stable capture card then try capturing you may get away with not having a frame TBC if your tapes are in good condition.

This almost never happens.

False. dellsam34 is right. I have many many examples where I can compare the exact number of frames in the analog recoding captured and the original (digital) stream, in addition to the obvious check about audio/video synch and visual quality, on hundred tapes, mine and not. If tapes are in good conditions, dellsam34 statement is absolutely correct.

To OP: start with a high end S-VHS VCR (or a very good VCR and a specific DVD Recorder in pass-through mode, loewr quality) and one of the recommended capture card. If the tapes are in good conditions you may not need an external TBC. Otherwise you have no choice than add one, and the price is expensive. In this case, search for trusted sources.

[lordsmurf]

Most of the "combo" VCR/DVD units internally composite down the source, regardless of s-video/HDMI/etc output. So quality is obliterated the moment that it plays the tape.

We don't know that for sure, unless someone posts some samples or analyses the processing chip, The common sense of circuit design is to get the HDMI from the digital out pin of the digital processing unit, makes no economical sense to add an extra ADC just to feed the HDMI out.

Common sense in multi-national corporations? No, cheapness wins, even when it's more expensive.

Most of the "combo" VCR/DVD units internally composite down the source, regardless of s-video/HDMI/etc output. So quality is obliterated the moment that it plays the tape.

Not always. Actually, I wonder when. Do you have any fact to post? (there are several in this forum and elsewhere showing the opposite).

Every rule has exceptions, but the exceptions do not overrule the rule. So sure, not always, just mostly. You are dealing with cheap low-end crap, after all. It had to just be "good enough" for the Walmart/Asda/etc PVR shoppers 10-20 years ago. Not actual quality capturing needs. oln/hodgey has posted about this numerous times as well over the years.

NTSC HDMI output is also always processed (wrong rec601/709, deinterlaced, etc). Messy.

No. Deinterlaced??? Wrong ColorSpace??? What are you talking about???

Exactly as stated. HDMI output from combo units (especially NTSC) generally processes the hell out of the video. It's about as non-transparent as it gets. As an easy example, there were several trollish users of this forum in recent years (all now gone), that would show off their "great quality" captures from these machines. And the sample had blended deinterlace, borked color/etc values, inserted frames, etc.

Once you have a good working VCR and stable capture card then try capturing you may get away with not having a frame TBC if your tapes are in good condition.

This almost never happens.

False. dellsam34 is right. I have many many examples where I can compare the exact number of frames in the analog recoding captured and the original (digital) stream, in addition to the obvious check about audio/video synch and visual quality, on hundred tapes, mine and not. If tapes are in good conditions, dellsam34 statement is absolutely correct.

I think your methodology is flawed. We just disagree, and it's not worth discussing again.

To OP: start with a high end S-VHS VCR (or a very good VCR and a specific DVD Recorder in pass-through mode, loewr quality) and one of the recommended capture card. If the tapes are in good conditions you may not need an external TBC. Otherwise you have no choice than add one, and the price is expensive. In this case, search for trusted sources.

"Tapes in good condition" is such a bad description for what actually happens in the video signal. For starters, "good condition" isn't something that can be judged visually. A terrible-looking tape can have fewer dropped frames issues (never 0), while a visually "perfect" (relatively speaking of VHS) tape can drop frames like the VCR is drunk.

Frame sync TBCs essentially operate on the temporal axis, while line TBCs essentially operate in the visual non-temporal axis. So you can "clean up" the visual image with line, and still not do anything for the temporal (and thus drop frames, lose audio sync, etc). The true fix is not had by using software that ignores drops, and reports 0. Nor software that attenuates audio to "not lose sync".

[lollo]

Every rule has exceptions, but the exceptions do not overrule the rule. So sure, not always,... oln/hodgey has posted about this numerous times as well over the years.

The exception is the other way around. Let's wait the comment from oln then.

there were several trollish users of this forum in recent years (all now gone), that would show off their "great quality" captures from these machines. And the sample had blended deinterlace, borked color/etc values, inserted frames, etc.

Let's wait the comment from the trollish users of this forum in recent years then.

False. dellsam34 is right. I have many many examples where I can compare the exact number of frames in the analog recoding captured and the original (digital) stream, in addition to the obvious check about audio/video synch and visual quality, on hundred tapes, mine and not. If tapes are in good conditions, dellsam34 statement is absolutely correct.

I think your methodology is flawed. We just disagree, and it's not worth discussing again.

You do not understand my methodology. Period. And you speak falsely. Protecting yourself behind a "We just disagree, and it's not worth discussing again" does not preserve you from showing your incompetence in the matter.

Explain in detail here why a comparison frame by frame of the same source captured from the satellite DVB-S stream and a VHS recording of the same stream is flawed.

"Tapes in good condition" is such a bad description for what actually happens in the video signal.

Of course the statement "tapes in good condition" refers to a clean video signal. Nobody cares about the intrinsic video quality, which has little to do (except for defects obviously related to a bad signal).

Read again and try to understand instead of replying with useless blah blah.

The true fix is not had by using software that ignores drops, and reports 0. Nor software that attenuates audio to "not lose sync".

Once more, the are capture software reporting dropped and inserted frames with great accuracy (i.e. AmarecTV), whatever falsity you are trying to validate here.

[aramkolt]

Ultimate test for dropped frames imho would be to use a time code generator/burner like the Horita II TG-50. Basically it burns (visually overlays) a unique timecode number into each frame while simultaneously outputting LTC audio. Capture both the video and audio coming out with your capture system and then drop it into a linear editor that can read the LTC audio and it'll show you if any frames were missed. Basically the audio LTC should always be either the same as or a fixed distance away from the burnt-in timecode through the entire capture as you scrub through it.

For testing purposes, you'd want to do this with a tape that is known to usually drop a bunch of frames and see what happens. You wouldn't want to actually capture a tape with that time code on it, but it can show if your setup drops frames without needing to rely on statistics with a known poor tape, particularly if your capture program doesn't have a way of reporting dropped frames.

Technically, you could probably get away without even using the LTC audio - just see what the first time code is for the first captured frame then go to the end of the capture and subtract the two times - that should correspond to the total length of the captured file. If more time is shown to have elapsed than the video has in length, then frames were dropped and you can calculate how many based on the fact that each field takes about 1/60th of a second for NTSC. So if the capture length is a full second behind what the timecode difference says it should be, then approximately 60 fields or 30 frames were dropped over the whole length of the capture.