WinDV capture : out of sync Audio?

[Topsy]

Hey there,

I'm capturing SVHS into a Mini-DV Camcorder and then firewire into a PC with WinDV.

Everything looks great except the resulting movie is out of sync. The duration is 1 hour or so and by the end it's clearly out of sync by at least 1.5 seconds.

Any thoughts as to what might be causing it? I thought WinDV was essentially just importing the data stream from the DV tape and not "re-encoding"?

Thanks in advance!

t

[hech54]

by the end it's clearly out of sync

Is it out of sync from beginning to end or does it start in sync then get worse?

[LMotlow]

Hey there,

I'm capturing SVHS into a Mini-DV Camcorder and then firewire into a PC with WinDV.

Everything looks great except the resulting movie is out of sync. The duration is 1 hour or so and by the end it's clearly out of sync by at least 1.5 seconds.

Any thoughts as to what might be causing it? I thought WinDV was essentially just importing the data stream from the DV tape and not "re-encoding"?

That's confusing as hell. SVHS isn't DV tape, it's analog. Your tape is being encoded as lossy DV. Very nice way to degrade SVHS source. What the heck do you think DV is? You're definitely 'encoding" that SVHS source to a lossy codec. The only thing WinDV does is copy the damage to your PC.

DV apologists can take it from here.

[johnmeyer]

That's confusing as hell. SVHS isn't DV tape, it's analog. Your tape is being encoded as lossy DV. Very nice way to degrade SVHS source. What the heck do you think DV is? You're definitely 'encoding" that SVHS source to a lossy codec. The only thing WinDV does is copy the damage to your PC.

DV apologists can take it from here.

Actually, it is not confusing at all. He is using his DV camcorder as an encoder, using its "pass through" capability. When used this way, the analog video is digitized by the camera and "passed through" directly to the Firewire/1394 cable. No video is ever recorded to DV tape, although the resulting digital video is encoded using the DV codec. While some people don't like the DV codec, primarily because of the 4:1:1 color space, it is a joy to work with when editing (if you use an NLE like Vegas that has its own DV codec -- you don't ever want to use the Windows DV codec), and any deficiencies in the DV codec really don't matter much when dealing with consumer SD video. The artifacts in VHS, S-VHS, 8mm, Hi-8, and Beta completely swamp any minor issues in the DV compression.

Some people who bash the DV codec have never used a professional version of that codec. Over in the Vegas forum, over a dozen years ago, we did tests on multi-generation encoding, and the Vegas DV codec held up even after re-encoding 100 times!

As for DV being lossy, that is hardly a news flash. However, any artifacts from that lossy encoding will not be noticed, at all, when the video is played because the artifacts contained in NTSC (or PAL) analog, consumer, video are infinitely more troublesome.

I've looked at thousands of hours of video from all sorts of sources, from uncompressed to highly compressed, from 4K down to VCD, and have a pretty good idea of all the tradeoffs. Here's what I know: those who are "purists" are also not very practical. I was trained as an engineer and that training makes a person appreciate the concept of "engineering tradeoffs," namely that any design decision you make is going to have both positive and negative consequences. In this case, the minimal artifacts you get with DV allow you to get captures with no dropped frames (the higher bitrate of uncompressed codecs often causes problems when hard drives recalibrate, or some background process decides that now is a good time to run). It lets you run the video in an NLE timeline at full frame rate, even when you apply color correction and other fX.

If you care about your time and getting enough work done that you can pay the bills, then having a workflow that makes things happen quickly is extremely important.

[Topsy]

by the end it's clearly out of sync

Is it out of sync from beginning to end or does it start in sync then get worse?

It starts in Sync and there progressively gets worse.

[Topsy]

Actually, it is not confusing at all. He is using his DV camcorder as an encoder, using its "pass through" capability.

That's right - using DV as a pass through. Thanks for your supporting words John I'm happy to go with the compromises with using DV as I have 100> hours of footage to capture and felt that uncompressed or alternative pro-format would be unwieldy considering I'm not re-editing or doing any fancy post production.

[hech54]

by the end it's clearly out of sync

Is it out of sync from beginning to end or does it start in sync then get worse?

It starts in Sync and there progressively gets worse.

OUCH. That's not good, not easy to fix, and not easy to diagnose.

[johnmeyer]

The amount of time your video is out of sync is more or less the same as one would expect if somehow your software is screwing up the drop vs. non-drop timecode. The difference between the two is 3.6 seconds per hour of video. In theory the timecode used shouldn't make any difference, but you might look to see if your capture software has some sort of drop vs. non-drop setting.

You can drive your capture instead using Scenalyzer. Back when DV ruled the world, Scenalyzer was the "go to" capture program. Andi (the author) put it in the public domain a few years ago, since there was no longer a very big market, so you can now download it and use it for free. I know that it works, and most likely will eliminate your sync problem. Here's the download site:

Scenalyzer

This is one of the best software utilities that was ever created.

[edit]It occurred to me just after I posted that the other setting you should look for is frame rate. The drop vs. non-drop is a way to provide frame codes that match when using a non-integer frame rate. The counting system should not affect the actual video, but what would change the video is if something in your capture chain is set for 30 fps instead of 29.97 fps. Your video is 29.97.

[johnmeyer]

I just downloaded the WinDV app and took a quick look. Make sure you have the capture set for Type 2 AVI, not type 1.

[Skiller]

It starts in Sync and there progressively gets worse.

I had the same problem when I once had to capture a bunch of Video 8 tapes for someone. I went for DV (using my MiniDV camcorder in passthrough) because indeed it is very feasible, although for my own needs I prefer to go lossless. When you just want to get the job done DV is a very sane choice.

Anyways, back to the problem. So I was using my MiniDV camcorder in passthrough connected to a Hi8 camcorder (no TBC or anything) via S-Video and stereo RCA and to the PC via Firewire using WinDV, and my audio was in sync at the beginning but slowly went out of sync until, after 1 hour, it was off by one second or so. (Being a PAL user it can't be a drop frame vs. non-drop issue btw.)

I also thought this cannot be possible, but somehow it is.

Then I tried Scenalyzer which has an audio sync feature which is enabled by default.

Well, problem solved! Using Scenalyzer audio stays in sync no matter what.

That being said I've never had any sync issues with WinDV when I'm transferring MiniDV tapes, only when I'm capturing analog in passthrough it doesn't stay in sync. I don't understand it myself as that shouldn't make a difference but apparently it does.

[LMotlow]

That's confusing as hell. SVHS isn't DV tape, it's analog. Your tape is being encoded as lossy DV. Very nice way to degrade SVHS source. What the heck do you think DV is? You're definitely 'encoding" that SVHS source to a lossy codec. The only thing WinDV does is copy the damage to your PC.

DV apologists can take it from here.

Actually, it is not confusing at all.

Sure it is. Still con't figure what's so great about mosquito noise, blown-out brights, and plastic color. But you guys have plenty of practice at it, so you can help the O.P. clean it up. I've learned a lot from watching you do it. Always a revelation.

[johnmeyer]

Still con't figure what's so great about mosquito noise, blown-out brights, and plastic color. But you guys have plenty of practice at it, so you can help the O.P. clean it up. I've learned a lot from watching you do it. Always a revelation.

I now have another way of capturing and the next time I am doing some VHS work I should try it out and compare it with DV. It has been years since I did this. I can't argue with you when you say other codecs are better. Back when I first started capturing analog video, I used my ATI Radeon 8500DV. The problem was, even after two years of fiddling with it, I could never guarantee a capture free of dropped frames, audio sync issues, etc. This was especially true when I tried to capture using lossless codecs. Obviously there are better options now than that ancient capture card. I now have a modern Hauppauge capture device, I should try that and see if it is better, although it too has given me problems where I have to use VideoRedo's "Quickstream Fix" to get video that can be played or edited.

The only reason I ever sing the praises of DV is that I've done hundreds, perhaps thousands of hours of capture and never once had a problem.

[LMotlow]

The only reason I ever sing the praises of DV is that I've done hundreds, perhaps thousands of hours of capture and never once had a problem.

ATI All In Wonders and lossless since Windows 98 but never had those problems, and still working. Must be luck. You can get better today but at a price.

[SameSelf]

It is also one of the reasons I sing the praise of the Canopus ADVC-300. Back in the day, I too capped hundreds of hours of Hi8, VHS, and VHS-C footage to DV_AVI for myself, family, and friends, and never had issues with out of sync audio, even once. In fact, I had no idea other people even had this problem until I started hearing about it on this forum. There was something in the circuitry that locked the audio and video in sync. Looking back on it, it was one of the smartest $500 I ever spent, but that was a decade ago, and the market has moved away from hardware based capture devices to software based devices.

However, for software based capture, it seems that vdub and others (WinDV?) consistently suffer from out-of-sync audio. And it doesn't seem to be a DF issue. At least, I have never once seen a VH poster offer a suitable explanation nor solution. However, many people have reported that AmarecTV does not suffer from sync issues. Therefore, I suggest that the OP give that a try rather than jumping through hoops with WinDV and other fixit type programs.

[Skiller]

However, many people have reported that AmarecTV does not suffer from sync issues. Therefore, I suggest that the OP give that a try rather than jumping through hoops with WinDV and other fixit type programs.

AmarecTV is a Direct Show capture software, meaning it cannot be used for DV/Firewire capture.

ScenalyzerLive does the job without sync issues.

[LMotlow]

These folks who have sync problems, dropped/inserted frames, whatnot, I have no idea what they're doing. The only problem I've replicated on purpose with my own gear after all these years and 350+ hours of tapes was inserted frames. Always used good gear and followed instructions, so I don't have an answer for it. Sometimes DV is the only choice for some. I tried it once. Twice, even. I'm still with lossless for VHS, a handful of caps direct to DVD, and recorded lots of stuff with ATI TV tuners in the analog days. Just luck, maybe.

[Topsy]

So I tried Scenalyzer but unfortunately it was dropping frames occasionally. I tried capturing again with WinDV but changed the interleave type to 1, instead of 2. The audio now seems to be better although not perfect. I will try splitting the files too at regular intervals to see if this helps.

Thanks for your input guys!

[johnmeyer]

If you are dropping even one frame with Scenalyzer, then you must have some really major problems with your setup.

In the old days, when we used IDE drives, it was common to find people who had DMA turned off for their drive. This would lead to all sorts of problems. If your computer has huge numbers of background processes running -- especially anti-virus software -- this can lead to dropped frames.

Until you can achieve a zero frame drop capture with Scenalyzer, your entire capture setup is suspect, and it will be tough to figure out what is causing your audio sync problem.

Bottom line: when capturing DV, you should have 0.00 dropped frames (even one is too many), and zero audio drift.

[Brad]

John: You don't get dropped frames at all doing analog -> DV? WinDV reported dropped frames at the start of Hi8 segments for me, when the cam's ADC fails to lock to the video immediately.

OP: See whether anything here is relevant: https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/376619-Audio-sync-drifts-while-capturing-VHS?highlight=Windv+sync

[johnmeyer]

John: You don't get dropped frames at all doing analog -> DV? WinDV reported dropped frames at the start of Hi8 segments for me, when the cam's ADC fails to lock to the video immediately.

That is correct: by using Scenalyzer, I never get dropped frames, even when capturing from analog sources that are passed through my DV camcorder, or which I capture using a special S-VHS/DV VCR that encodes VHS tapes directly to DV.

To be completely accurate, once in awhile, if the VHS tape has some really bad spots and is breaking up and losing sync, I have had a few dropped frames. However, for most captures, even those with interrupted time code, no frames are dropped. I do have an 8mm deck that I use for capturing client tapes. However, it does not accept Hi8. It is possible that Hi8 might cause problems with which I am not familiar.

My main point is that you should never have a dropped frame during the time the video is playing normally.

[Topsy]

I've now managed to get 0 frames dropped in Scenalyzer, by using my external TBC. The audio is also now in sync! Many thanks.

I'm also pleasantly surprised at how much good the TBC (G2 MSTC) has done to the picture - particularly in terms of reducing color flashing on reds. The only issue now is the general quality of picture out of the FS100 which is quite noisy compared to the VHS machine I have (FS70). Perhaps it's time to clean the heads

As an aside, I'm quickly discovering that VHS restoration is somewhat of a rabbit hole. There is an addictive "can it be even better??" mindset that grabs hold of you. I can well imagine people paying a fortune on this "hobby"! I started with 20 euro VHS machine... now 90 euro SVHS.. now TBC.... oh, that FS200 on ebay looks VERY tempting...

t

[johnmeyer]

I'm glad that Scenalyzer worked for you. It is a pretty amazing little program.

The increased noise you are seeing may actually be a good thing. The reason I say that is that most consumer VCRs contain all sorts of noise reduction circuitry which is designed to mask the lousy video produced by VHS/Beta/8mm technology. That 1980s built-in hardware noise reduction technology, however, also reduces details. Thus, when you turn off all processing within the VCR, and regenerate the signal using a TBC, you often end up with a lot more noise. But that's OK because you now have a lot more detail, and you can now reduce that noise using the infinitely smarter technology available with AVISynth. I use MDegrain, but there are other options.

Don't go too far down the restoration "rabbit hole." Always remember the restoration mantra: "less is more." What I mean is that most people, when they first start doing this, discover some sort of software tool for removing a given artifact. They then turn the settings way up because the high settings can completely remove the artifact. What they sometimes don't immediately discover is that, when using high settings, the NR introduces artifacts that are worse, less natural looking, and more annoying than the artifact that has been removed.

Also remember that consumer analog video is really pretty bad, especially now that you've been watching digital HD video for so many years. You are not going to be able to get anything that has sharpness or detail like you see with modern video. Your goal instead should be simply to make the video more pleasant to watch.

[SameSelf]

Also remember that consumer analog video is really pretty bad, especially now that you've been watching digital HD video for so many years. You are not going to be able to get anything that has sharpness or detail like you see with modern video. Your goal instead should be simply to make the video more pleasant to watch.

This. And it will only get worse as we move completely into the 10/12-bit 4K HDR world. For those who lived during the VHS/SD era, it always hold a special place in their hearts and minds. For future generations, it will ALWAYS be instantly recognizable and somewhat distasteful, if for no other reason than the awful 4:3 AR, clothes, and hair. A more artistic way to approach any VHS project is to try to capture the VHS aesthetic in the same way B&W, Super-8, etc. each have a certain aesthetic. And that doesn't involve a lot of expensive hardware.