Newbie - Minimizing Compression Effects During Edits

[70Standard]

I shot several hours of footage with my Kodak Playsport and have more than a dozen MOV files with 720p/60 fps video and audio of varying lengths. I edited the files in Vegas (crossfades, add titles/text overlays/still photos, sync with a separate audio source, trimming, etc.), then used DVD Architect to create two NTSC standard-definition dual layer DVDs that can be played in a DVD player. For each disc, Vegas rendered the project files, then DVD Architect re-rendered the files as a result of the "Optimize" process that makes the project fit in the available disc space.

While I'm generally pleased with how the DVDs turned out, I have decided to start over and do things differently for the 720p/blu-ray version of the same project. I have two questions:

1. How should I handle editing of the MOV files to avoid (or at least minimize) compression effects?
2. Is there a way to keep both Vegas and DVD Architect from rendering and re-rendering the same project files? I'm assuming this double rendering takes a toll on video quality.

This newbie thanks you in advance for your help.

[poisondeathray]

Yes, you lose quality each time you re-encode with a lossy format

You should use the DVD architect template NTSC 60i to make compliant video & audio streams rendered directly from vegas, so DVDA doesn't re-encode them (DVDA's only purpose here is to author, make menus, etc..., not to re-encode)

You need to use a DVD bitrate calculator (there are many online, use search), and enter those values for audio & video . Filesize = bitrate * running time, so using a DVD bitrate calculator you can figure out what bitrates to use in order to fill the disc(s)

[70Standard]

Thanks for the reply. I'll check into bitrate calculators and see if I can figure things out.

Regarding the NTSC 60i part of your response - Is there not a way to leave the video as progressive? I thought that was one of the big benefits of HD video?

[poisondeathray]

Thanks for the reply. I'll check into bitrate calculators and see if I can figure things out.

Regarding the NTSC 60i part of your response - Is there not a way to leave the video as progressive? I thought that was one of the big benefits of HD video?

yes it's a benefit, but you're making a DVD correct ? as in DVD-video playable in a "normal" DVD player ? That is standard definition only. At 60Hz NTSC, it only supports interlaced. You could make it 720x480p29.97 (i.e "30p"), but the motion will be not as smooth as you drop 1/2 the frames

1280x720p59.94 (ie. "60p") is supported by blu-ray , or if you have a blu-ray player that is AVCHD compatible, you can put HD content on DVD5/9 media

[70Standard]

For my second project that I was going to completely re-edit, I was planning to use 25 GB blu-ray discs and author the discs so that they will play the high def video on blu-ray players. This is why I was hoping to keep the 720p source as clean as possible. I will check and see if DVD Architect has a 720p template. I welcome alternate suggestions and appreciate your continued input.

[poisondeathray]

For my second project that I was going to completely re-edit, I was planning to use 25 GB blu-ray discs and author the discs so that they will play the high def video on blu-ray players. This is why I was hoping to keep the 720p source as clean as possible. I will check and see if DVD Architect has a 720p template. I welcome alternate suggestions and appreciate your continued input.

For the 2nd project, do the project at 1280x720p59.94 (in vegas project properties) . Yes there should be templates for 720p59.94 blu-ray, but a warning: vegas is a bit quirky for Blu-ray, in that often some of it's streams are incompatible for DVDA causing re-encoding (!?) It's like whaaaattt?!! It's a sorry excuse , considering it's supposed to be "pro" software . Anyways it's been like that for the last few vegas versions, not sure about the most recent one 12 pro, maybe they fixed it . I think MPEG2 blu-ray is ok, jsut the AVC blu-ray is affected

From that 1 project you can export both the blu-ray or NTSC DVD. The only thing that changes is what is rendered out of vegas. Those settings are "perfect" in terms of compatibility (frame and field rate wise) for DVD and blu-ray (the DVD will be downsampled to 720x480i59.94) . Just save the .veg file and all original assets (all the clips and other assets like stills)

"keeping the 720p source clean?" - not sure what you mean by that? You should save & backup your original clips. If you want to save a "video" from the 1st project you can use a lossless codec like lagarith. It will be huge (lossless compression requires lots of HDD space) .

[70Standard]

I edited my source MOV files, setting Vegas' properties to match source (720p and 59.96 fps - note slight difference from 59.94 fps). The first segment is 3 minutes long and is still pictures with audio in the background. I couldn't find a 720p 59.94 fps render setting in Vegas, so I created a custom template (screen shot attached). When I try to render, I get an error message about an unknown error (see attached screen shot). Anybody know why this error is happening?

[vcd4ever]

When I try to render, I get an error message about an unknown error (see attached screen shot). Anybody know why this error is happening?

Change the level to High, blu-ray doesn't use level High 1440.

vcd4ever.

[Cornucopia]

You don't say how long your piece is, but your shot of your encode shows AVG bitrate of 9.8Mbps for MPEG2 HD, which is LOW. That's like 6 HOURS! Unless your clip is close to that long, you are seriously under-valuing your bitrate. Also, while it may have a few more "glitches" in encoding compatibility than MPEG2, AVC is MUCH more efficient, giving you a MUCH better picture for that same bitrate. Combine those to things, and you would probably find that your quality would greatly improve.

So:
1. Go AVC (just watch your settings) - start with a "DVDArchitect-compatible" template, then customize it with better rendition settings and personalize the bitrate (use the correct max & average for your title and the format). Save that as a new, custom template.
2. Figure out what the hell is going on with 59.96 - this is not a standard rate and could be screwing things up for you during encode time. It could be something as simple as editing the header, or might need remuxing, or possibly conversion to a lossless intermediate first, but you've got to keep with the standards ALL THE WAY when using the NLE and Authoring softwares (so you might need to pre-process in AVISynth/Vdub, etc).
3. Maximize the quality to the disc, using 2-pass VBR.
4. If you have further questions about your source files, load 'em into MediaInfo and shoot us a FULL text output so we are on the same page in diagnosing what might be needed to "massage them into compliance".

Scott

[70Standard]

It's rendering! Thanks for your help.

[70Standard]

Go AVC (just watch your settings) - start with a "DVDArchitect-compatible" template, then customize it with better rendition settings and personalize the bitrate (use the correct max & average for your title and the format). Save that as a new, custom template.

In the "Render As" window, I changed the "Save as type" to "Sony AVC". The available templates for this file type doesn't include a 720p 59.94 fps option. So, I selected "Custom" to set up my own template. The highest frame rate option is 29.97 fps. How can I get a 59.94 fps option?

Figure out what the hell is going on with 59.96 - this is not a standard rate and could be screwing things up for you during encode time.

I was able to render a 720p file at 59.94 fps in MPEG-2 format just fine, so I don't think the odd frame rate reported by Vegas for my VOB source files is causing a problem.

[Cornucopia]

You probably didn't change the profile from MAIN to HIGH. Main Profile only allows up to 29.97 or 30 fps.

BTW, when referring to your settings, it really makes sense to have accompanying full text or screenshot copies to share with others to be on the same page, otherwise we can't rule out things...

Scott

[70Standard]

You probably didn't change the profile from MAIN to HIGH. Main Profile only allows up to 29.97 or 30 fps.

Hello Scott and thanks for the response. Unfortunately, the only profile choice I have is "baseline". If I change the framesize to "custom", I get a MAIN profile option, but once again it tops out at 29.97 fps. If I cahnge the framesize to one of the 1080 options, then I get both the MAIN and HIGH options. Is there another AVC output file option that gives the 59.94 fps option for 720?

[Cornucopia]

Not at a PC with a newer version of Vegas right now (so I can't check), but if all else fails, you could always render to a losslessly-compressed or uncompressed AVI @ 720p60/59.94 and then encode to h.264 with an x.264 GUI. (Just checked on OLD version of Vegas, and this does work)

Scott

[_Al_]

You can always try MainConcept mpeg4 avc , at least Main profile should be there

if there is no 59.97 to select, just type it there, maybe you need to have set project properties to 59.97 also (not sure if this is only a glitch from older versions I have here or it is fixed now)