repair problem Video (do not know how to describe)with faulty capture

[gil900]

repair problem Video (do not know how to describe)with faulty capture

Hello,
Sorry for the title .. I have no idea how to describe the problems in the title ..

So is the problem -

There is a certain part on my capture that I can not fix. Even with RemapFrames. (Use two video sources)
Because the second video source not recorded well ..

here is the first video source (of the problem):
http://www.mediafire.com/?npjdrag8rd9z7he

the second video source:
http://www.mediafire.com/?p57l7h9wvwhcl0h

As you can see, the first video source is working correctly, but the tape did not work well


the second video source - it's just the opposite.
The video did not work properly, but the tape worked fine.

(I use the words "correctly" because I do not know how to describe it in English.. If you downloaded the files then probably you will understand what I mean)


I can not replace frames with frames in the second video source because the second video source is not playing well.. But you can see the the in second video this problem did not happen on the tape..

So Maybe we can fix the problem in the second video and then use RemapFrames

[mammo1789]

As you can see, the first video source is working correctly, but the tape did not work well


the second video source - it's just the opposite.
The video did not work properly, but the tape worked fine.

Can you be more specific what you mean by that.
And what workflow are you using what vcr ( is it vcr or camera ) tv card and so on others will say that it is very fixable by using better vcr or by using tbc.
You can try median approach of recording the same tape couple of times ( min 3 times I think max 9 times ) and then use median script if the anomalies are random it will fix them completely if it is on the same spot then it might be the tape it self

[gil900]

As you can see, the first video source is working correctly, but the tape did not work well


the second video source - it's just the opposite.
The video did not work properly, but the tape worked fine.

Can you be more specific what you mean by that.
And what workflow are you using what vcr ( is it vcr or camera ) tv card and so on others will say that it is very fixable by using better vcr or by using tbc.
You can try median approach of recording the same tape couple of times ( min 3 times I think max 9 times ) and then use median script if the anomalies are random it will fix them completely if it is on the same spot then it might be the tape it self

source 1.avi:

Problem - marked in the picture


source 2.avi:


Problem - can not show with a picture .. You must download to understand ..
This is movement problem ..


I can not use RemapFrames in this case ..
First need to fix the the movement problem ..

[poisondeathray]

Why don't you use remapframes on itself (take clip2 and replace individual frames from clip2) . This way you can fix the field/frame order issue . Or manually fix the order it in an editor

You can't interchange from clip 1 & 2 because the dimensions are different - you've cropped some off clip1

What about re-capturing? Do the results differ ?

[gil900]

Why don't you use remapframes on itself (take clip2 and replace individual frames from clip2) . This way you can fix the field/frame order issue . Or manually fix the order it in an editor

You can't interchange from clip 1 & 2 because the dimensions are different - you've cropped some off clip1

What about re-capturing? Do the results differ ?

But how can it work?

Can you gave me a small example of your solution?
I do not think I understand your solution ..

[poisondeathray]

Why don't you use remapframes on itself (take clip2 and replace individual frames from clip2) . This way you can fix the field/frame order issue . Or manually fix the order it in an editor

You can't interchange from clip 1 & 2 because the dimensions are different - you've cropped some off clip1

What about re-capturing? Do the results differ ?

But how can it work?

Can you gave me a small example of your solution?
I do not think I understand your solution ..

If you want to use remapframes to "fix" clip2, you use the same clip for mapping to and from

Think of it as the frames out of order e.g. 0,2,1,4,6,5...

You just swap 1<=>2 , 6<=>5 , etc .. This gives you 0,1,2,3,4,5,6

You do individual frame replacements, not a sequence in your mappings text file



I would manually reorder the frames of clip2 in an NLE . It's a lot faster/easier.

[poisondeathray]

I'll upload the re-ordered clip2 here

Avisynth is great for many things, but some things are much easier in a real editor - it's easier to "see" what you are doing

There might be a way to "automatically" re-order with TFM(some settings) , but you'll have to fiddle with the settings. I couldn't get it to work with a few tries

If each time you capture you get different results , If I were you I would re-evaluate your capture setup

[gil900]

I'll upload the re-ordered clip2 here

Avisynth is great for many things, but some things are much easier in a real editor - it's easier to "see" what you are doing

There might be a way to "automatically" re-order with TFM(some settings) , but you'll have to fiddle with the settings. I couldn't get it to work with a few tries

If each time you capture you get different results , If I were you I would re-evaluate your capture setup

Thank you!
I'll use it ..

I have another area with the same case exactly.

Can you please explain to me the way you did it so I can do it on other areas?

[poisondeathray]

I have another area with the same case exactly.

Can you please explain to me the way you did it so I can do it on other areas?

Sorry , I don't know the words to describe it besides the explanation above.

Go frame by frame in an editor or vdub and you will see it goes forward, backwards in sections

I just put them in order until the motion is smooth

The frames are out of order. So I put them in order

[gil900]

OK
I did this:


BaseClip=AviSource("source 2.avi")
BaseClip=BaseClip.RemapFrames(mappings="
0 1
1 2
3 4
5 6
7 8
9 10
11 12
13 14
15 16
17 18
19 20
21 22
23 24
25 26
27 28
29 30
31 32
33 34
35 36
37 38
39 40
41 42
43 44
45 46
47 48
49 50
51 52
53 54
55 56
57 58
59 60
61 62
63 64
65 66
67 68
", SourceClip=AviSource("source 2.avi"))


return BaseClip






This is what I got:
http://www.mediafire.com/?afyl00dp354j938

I did not get good result as you ..

What software did you use?

[sanlyn]

I don't know if I did this the same way poisondeathray did, but I used RemapFrames. To do it, I made an exact copy of "Source 2.avi" and named it "Base 2.avi". I used Base 2.avi as the clip whose frames would be remapped, and Source 2.avi as the source for "fixed" frames. Of course both copies of the clip have the same misplaced frames, in the same incorrect order.

If you look at Source 2 you'll see that every 3rd frame is in the correct order and position. The frame numbers start with 0. If every 3rd frame is in order, then the frames that should remain where they are are 2, 5, 8, 11, 14, . . . .etc.

Every 2 frames between the correct frames are reversed: 0-1, 3-4, 6-7, 9-10, 12-13, etc., are in reverse order. Their positions can be changed by replacing them with frames from Source 2. To give you a short example of this, here is the order of the first 14 frames of "Source 2.avi" in the script. The numbers in BOLD BLUE are in the proper sequence. The numbers that are not bold are in reverse order:

1 0 2 4 3 5 7 6 8 10 9 11 13 12 14 . . . .

For the first 13 frames of the video, the script looks like this:

BaseClip=AviSource("E:\forum\gil900-Source\Base 2.avi")

BaseClip=BaseClip.RemapFrames(mappings="
0 1
1 0
4 3
3 4
6 7
7 6
9 10
10 9
12 13
13 12
", SourceClip=AviSource("E:\forum\gil900-Source\Source 2.avi"))
return BaseClip

There are probably other ways to do it, but this will be a manual operation and any method will take time. I would attempt another capture. You might also think about acquiring another used VCR. Panasonics from the period 1996-1999 seem to track better than newer VCR's, if they are in decent condition. They were extremely popular in their day, so it should not be too difficult to find one.

The complete script that I used for all 69 frames in Source 2 is attached below. The script does not go past frame 68, because there is no frame 70 to replace frame 69.

[sanlyn]

OK
I did this:

BaseClip=AviSource("source 2.avi")
BaseClip=BaseClip.RemapFrames(mappings="
0 1
1 2
3 4
. . .
[ and so on . . . . ]

", SourceClip=AviSource("source 2.avi"))


This is what I got:
http://www.mediafire.com/?afyl00dp354j938

I did not get good result as you ..

What software did you use?

Your script doesn't work because, for one thing, you are creating duplicate frames in the same clip. Look at the first line:
0 1
This replaces frame 0 with frame 1 from the same clip. You know have two frame 1's. The first two frames look like this:
1 1
The second line replaces the second frame 1 with frame 2. The video now looks like this:
1 2 2
The next line "3 4" replaces frame 3 with frame 4. You now have two frame 4's. It looks like this:
1 2 2 4 4

Your script replaces every 2nd frame with a duplicate of the frame following it.

[jagabo]

Much simpler:

AviSource("source 2.avi") 
AssumeTFF()
SelectEvery(3,1,0,2)

[sanlyn]

Yep. I just knew there had to be an easier way. Now we just hope the bad frame pattern doesn't change. I have to say, I've never seen a tape play like that, ever.

[gil900]

Yep. I just knew there had to be an easier way. Now we just hope the bad frame pattern doesn't change. I have to say, I've never seen a tape play like that, ever.

ED: jagabo, it looks more blurred than the RemapFrames version. Why would that be? The clip is really soft to begin with, though.

It's not tape. This is the capture .. I capture with the DVD.
I know this problem .. It happens to me. That's why I stopped the tape and check what I got (capture correctly or not)

In this case both good captures not enough. So I had to fix this bad capture it to use it

Much simpler:

AviSource("source 2.avi") 
AssumeTFF()
SelectEvery(3,1,0,2)

Thank you!
Works like a charm!

[sanlyn]

I tried it both ways, with RemapFrames and SelectEvery. The remap had better definition IMO, but both work well, both look otherwise alike, and both can be doctored to death. It's really soft video, and there's bad edge shimmer and flutter: look at the basket in nthe lowert right and the frames of the crib against the wall (another strong argument in favor of tbc's for tape! Badly needed here). I gave each version a little doctoring. Still some bad green discoloring in the boy's shirt. But after an hour its still looks like obviously damaged tape.

Thanks for the tip on SelectEvery().

[sanlyn]

Yep. I just knew there had to be an easier way. Now we just hope the bad frame pattern doesn't change. I have to say, I've never seen a tape play like that, ever.

It's not tape. This is the capture .. I capture with the DVD.

The source is tape. Capturing noisy, damaged tape directly to DVD doesn't make it look "better".

[mammo1789]

I think recapturing is more logical ( if you have the source of course ).
Then you have 2 choices the tbc will definitely help with this tape if it is the tape it self, median will help if it is the vcr or other parts of the equipment that you used.
Did you used dvd recorder to record to dvd or you recorded in software in a pc ( big difference )?
What recorder did you used if you used one because almost all Panasonics some Toshibas and jvc have some sort of tbc/framesynchronizer so this shouldn't happening in the first place.

The source is tape. Capturing noisy, damaged tape directly to DVD doesn't make it look "better". Encoding to DVD, decoding to AVI, then re-encoding again inflicts a quality loss.

totally agree i never record vhs to dvd ( even on good recorder ) directly i always go the pc route slower but much higher quality ( for my damaged tapes at least )

[sanlyn]

almost all Panasonics some Toshibas and jvc have some sort of tbc/framesynchronizer so this shouldn't happening in the first place.

Some good points, but the VCRs you mention have tbc's only in their prosumer and semi-pro models.

[jagabo]

Yep. I just knew there had to be an easier way. Now we just hope the bad frame pattern doesn't change. I have to say, I've never seen a tape play like that, ever.

ED: jagabo, it looks more blurred than the RemapFrames version. Why would that be? The clip is really soft to begin with, though.

I don't see how that's possible since all either script is doing is changing the order of the frames.

[sanlyn]

There's not that much difference between the two, seen side by side (after you watch it 20 times as I did). I was mostly curious. Some denoising, sharpening, better contrast -- only the hairdresser would know for sure. One thing certain, there sure ain't much detail left to work with, either way.

[jagabo]

Don't watch them side by side. Interleave the two methods then flip back and forth between frames in VirtualDub. You'll see there's no difference.

src=AviSource("source 2.avi").AssumeTFF()

v1=SelectEvery(src,3,1,0,2)
v2=RemapFrames(src, mappings="
0 1
1 0
4 3
3 4
6 7
7 6
9 10
10 9
12 13
13 12
", SourceClip=src)

Interleave(v1,v2)

Or subtract and amplify. Replace Interleave() with:

sub = v1.subtract(v2) 
substrong = sub.levels(112,1,144,0,255) 
StackHorizontal(sub, substrong)

Absolutely no differneces -- until you get past frame 13, obviously.

[gil900]

I tried it both ways, with RemapFrames and SelectEvery. The remap had better definition IMO, but both work well, both look otherwise alike, and both can be doctored to death. It's really soft video, and there's bad edge shimmer and flutter: look at the basket in the lower right and the frames of the crib against the wall (another strong argument in favor of tbc's for tape! Badly needed here). I gave each version a little doctoring. Still some bad green discoloring in the boy's shirt. But after an hour its still looks like obviously damaged tape.

Thanks for the tip on SelectEvery().

Thank you

Can you give me the settings of the colors so I use them?


I know the quality is bad ..

Is this:


tell you something?

Yep. I just knew there had to be an easier way. Now we just hope the bad frame pattern doesn't change. I have to say, I've never seen a tape play like that, ever.

It's not tape. This is the capture .. I capture with the DVD.

The source is tape. Capturing noisy, damaged tape directly to DVD doesn't make it look "better". Encoding to DVD, decoding to AVI, then re-encoding again inflicts a quality loss.

yes, but it's not so bad because the quality of the tape is really, really bad ..
And this quality loss is minimal and not noticeable because I do conversion without a lot of compression.

And I tried to record on PC with Easycap and I had a problem it was recorded with the blasts. (Hope you understand)

I really do not see any difference between the Easycap to DVD recorder.
Perhaps it is because the quality of the tape is very bad anyway

The source is tape. Capturing noisy, damaged tape directly to DVD doesn't make it look "better". Encoding to DVD, decoding to AVI, then re-encoding again inflicts a quality loss.

Are you saying that if I play the tape and see noise, so it is damaged the tape?
if so then i do not know what to do .. This is really bad news

[sanlyn]

I tried it both ways, with RemapFrames and SelectEvery. The remap had better definition IMO, but both work well, both look otherwise alike, and both can be doctored to death. It's really soft video, and there's bad edge shimmer and flutter: look at the basket in the lower right and the frames of the crib against the wall (another strong argument in favor of tbc's for tape! Badly needed here). I gave each version a little doctoring. Still some bad green discoloring in the boy's shirt. But after an hour its still looks like obviously damaged tape.

Thank you

Can you give me the settings of the colors so I use them?

ColorYUV(off_y=-5,cont_y=20,gain_y=15,gamma_y=-5)
ColorYUV(cont_v=15,gain_v=3)
Tweak(coring=false,Sat=1.5)

Personally, I think it still looks somewhat "thin" and two-dimensional. But if you make the dark colors darker, the boy's shirt and dark hair will lose too much detail.

I know the quality is bad ..

Is this:
[posted image]
tell you something?

Yes. The image tells me it's from tape, a soft and blurry image with very low contrast and low saturation. It has very little acutance or detail, so that strong sharpening would have little effect and would make it appear very strange. However, the colors seem accurate.

Are you saying that if I play the tape and see noise, so it is damaged the tape?

Of course not. How could it? The optical disc/hard drive area never touches the tape.

The reason people prefer to capture tape to AVI is because lossless AVI is a better medium for cleaning and other processing. Besides noise, bad tape has many other problems, as you have seen. DVD encoders don't like noise; they expect a clean signal. Noisy tape requires more data bits that could otherwise be used to define more detail and definition. Instead, the encoder encodes noise along with everything else, and noise creates encoder errors. After the noise becomes encoded with lossy compression into MPEG or other similar formats, it is more difficult to clean because a lot of the noise and poor handling has been encoded as digital artifacts. Some of it can never be removed; encoding has made it a permanent feature of the image.

A clean image requires fewer data bits and is encoded with fewer artifacts and better motion handling.

[gil900]

Thanks for the info ..
I have Easycap but it is not recording perfect.
There are many cases that it is missing frames from the tape..

So what do you suggest to do to solve the problem?

I must say that I didn't had this problem (with Easycap) on the tape without noise.

The noise is what makes it happen (missing frames in the capture step)

[sanlyn]

Yes, I saw earlier that you were having problems with EasyCap. But one works with what is available, I know. Eventually you will find a better device that does not cost a fortune. There are better tape players and used DVD recorders around, as well. For those reasons, I'd advise that you do not discard your family tapes after they are captured. Later, If you acquire better equipment, you can get better results -- even from damaged tape.

By the way, I did type extra notes on the image you asked about in your earlier post. But somehow I deleted the remarks (dragged the mouse too quickly and typed over my own remarks). The edge smearing and trails along high-contrast edges is common with old tape and poor tracking, and MPEG encoders can cause these disturbances to look worse. If you had a few extra million euros you could buy software that can be configured to clean edge smearing and ghost trails. But it would take months to learn to use the product. With that much cash, you could buy better playback -- and it would still require some learning! I wish I could buy some for myself. Ah, well . . .

Those streaks exist throughout the image (look at the left-hand border). During playback the streaking appears blurred because it moves quickly; in motion it has an appearance that some people call "horizontal rain". Because it is usually temporal (it varies from frame to frame) it can be partially cleaned with noise filters. When the noise is encoded, it is exaggerated and becomes more difficult to handle. I don't believe there is any way to remove it entirely.

[gil900]

Yes, I saw earlier that you were having problems with EasyCap. But one works with what is available, I know. Eventually you will find a better device that does not cost a fortune. There are better tape players and used DVD recorders around, as well. For those reasons, I'd advise that you do not discard your family tapes after they are captured. Later, If you acquire better equipment, you can get better results -- even from damaged tape.

By the way, I did type extra notes about the image you posted earlier. But somehow I deleted the remarks (I must have dragged the mouse too quickly and typed over my own remarks). Edge smearing and trails along high-contrast edges are common with old tape and poor tracking. Encoders can cause these disturbances to look worse. If you had a few extra million euros you could buy software that can be configured to clean edge smearing. ghosting, motion trails -- and you could get better players. But it would take months to learn to use the setup. But, again, everyone has their wish list. Ah, well . . .

Those streaks exist throughout the image (look at the left-hand border, and in edges of shadows). During playback the streaks appear blurred because they move quickly; the fast streaking is sometimes described as "horizontal rain". Because it is usually temporal (it varies from frame to frame) it can be partially cleaned with noise filters. When the noise is encoded, it is exaggerated and becomes more difficult to handle. I don't believe it can be removed entirely.

So from what I understand, used DVD recorder is not're so bad.
There is a possibility that there is a DVD recorder that makes a good result as a recording on PC with EasyCap?

I'm looked at the model of my DVD recorder model and the model name is:
apex DRX-8637

What do you think about this DVD? It's a good DVD recorder?
I a option to set that the DVD recorder will record on higher quality but i didn't changed it(from the default settings) because I did not think it was a necessary thing because the tape quality is not good and I do not see a difference .. It weighs more.
But after what you said, maybe I'm wrong.


Is there a way to do the steps you described with the source of the DVD recorder?
What software should do this process?

It took me months to figure out how to do what I've done so far ..

[sanlyn]

You don't use a DVD recorder with capture cards. Certainly, the EasyCap is not a card that most members here would recommend. But if it's all you have, then you have to work with it.

If you're going to record directly to DVD (one of the worst ways to transfer tape), higher quality settings give better results, not worse. The sample you posted in this thread is extremely soft. It almost looks blurred.

If you record directly to DVD and transfer the video to your computer, that's all you can do with it except try to clean it in the computer.

The most popular used DVD recorders I've seen selling in Europe are from Panasonic and Toshiba. Some of the SONY units are OK, but SONY varies from model to model. The best of these recorders were made between 2000 and 2005. The Apex you're using is apparently a DVD/VHS combination unit (I don't think you've told us what kind of VCR you use). Judging from your past captures, I'd say the Apex does not have a built-in tbc. The better recorders had usable line-tbc circuits that help solve some tape playback problems. The DVD/VHS combination units have terrible tape players.

Recording bad tape directly to DVD isn't the best way to do it, as you can see. But a better recorder will at least give you better results as far as that method goes.

[gil900]

Ok
After all this time, I have extended knowledge and I know how to deal with the problem I have with EasyCap.

What I want to do is record a few times with EasyCap and a few times with the DVD recorder then use the EasyCap video recording as the main video.
If i have missed frames, then i will take those frames from the DVD recorder vedos.

In this case I have a source of DVD recorder so I just need to make source of the EasyCap.

What do you think of the way?

[sanlyn]

It's worth a try, but why make a source recording of the EasyCap capture? If the EasyCap has missing frames, recording it to DVD will have the same missing frames. I think you have the idea that a DVD recorder somehow "improves" a capture. It doesn't. But a good recorder with tbc+line timing circuit is likely to drop fewer frames (not a guarantee, but better circuits can make a better capture).

If you record to EasyCap and then record the EastCap to a DVD recorder, it will look worse. You're encoding twice, from a capture device that likely cannot make an original MPEG capture as well as a better recorder.