Very strange VHS to PC capture problem

[fredhoward]

I'm trying to copy VHS tapes to my PC via a Leadtek 3200H Tuner card. All of my tapes play back perfectly via my main 40" samsung HDTV. When I play them back using the same VCR into my PC via the 3200H, the picture is "shearing" in places and almost unwatchable, but here's the very strange part. The picture is stable if the original use of the camera that recorded the video wasn't panning too much. If the original scenes were shot from a tripod or the camera was fairly static, there is no problem with the playback on the PC, but a scene taken for instance, where I was walking down the road, is almost impossible viewing. It can't be the tape or the original recording because all of the tapes still play back perfectly on my normal TV ! I don't intend to burn to DVD as I want to copy about 40 four hour tapes to a 1TB HDD. All of these tapes are home videos and most of them were analogue. I have copied later digital vide camera tapes to this same PC via USB without a problem.
My system is Vista 64- E8500 processor-Asus Rampage Formula-8800GTS graphics-4GB ram. The VCR is a Sanyo VK910A and I have two of them. Both have the same problem connected to the PC and both play all tapes perfectly to the TV.The 3200H Tuner card records HDTV flawlessly to this same PC.
I came across this site after several days of Googling and wish that I'd found it sooner. Any tips will be much appreciated.
Fred

[fredhoward]

I forgot to mention that my monitor is a 24"Dell 1920 x 1200. I have changed various resolutions and changed the hertz to all available options. I have just connected the yellow video cable direct to the monitor and the same tape plays back perfectly on the monitor. I have also just removed the sound card that came with the Asus M/B as I've read here that that might affect things but it has made no difference.
Fred

[jagabo]

By shearing do you mean it looks like part of the picture has shifted to one side? Like in the AVI sample here:

https://forum.videohelp.com/topic362002.html#1924269

[fredhoward]

I tried to take a screenshot and either got a blue screen or a jpg that itself was shimmering, but when I tried to upload that I again got a blue screen image. Here is a shot taken with a digital camerawhich gives you some idea of the problem. This shearing/flickering takes place many times a second. However, if I had been standing still when the video was taken, the problem would not be there. Second shot from same tape. any part of tape where camera was fairly steady is like the second jpg and the whole tape is fine when viewed on a TV. Thanks for your quick response. I hadn't realised that I could post a screenshot here.
Fred

[Bjs]

Include camera used in transfer ?

[minidv2dvd]

hi and welcome to the forum!

you might try capturing with different software. some editors can capture, or maybe try virtualdub.

[fredhoward]

It was 11 years ago and I can only remember that it was a Canon Hi 8 and analogue tapes. However this problem lies with the interface between the Sanyo VCR and the PC via the Leadtek 3200H Tuner card. As I said, these tapes all playback fine on my TV and on my Dell 24" monitor if I connect the VCR to the Dell via the yellow RCA socket. It seems to be a problem between the VCR and the Capture card. I have tried two VCRs and the problem is the same. As you see from the shot of the bird, most of the tape is OK on the PC, , except where the original video involved the camera panning or a sudden movement, but again not when played back on a TV. I have tried all the usual such as rewinding the tape in fast forward and reverse, cleaning the heads, and using the tape adjustment. I have reinstalled the software and removed the Tuner card to another PCI-E slot. I have replaced the cables from the VCR to the PC. I've also ordered a cheap "EasyCap" unit from China just to see if there is any difference ( They want 60 to 80 Oz dollars here-it's 15 from China, inc freight !)
Fred

[jagabo]

I'm not sure I can really tell what's going on from your snapshots. I suspect you just have a playback issue with interlaced video. Can you post a second or two of the captured video? Or open one of your caps with VirtualDubMod. What do you see there? You can select Video -> Snapshot Source Frame and save as a PNG file.

[fredhoward]

Thanks for that, Jagabo, but I'm starting to get out of my depth here ! I downloaded VirtualDubMod but as soon as I point it at the relevant MPG I get this warning notice. looks like there's a bit of a learning curve ahead here, but is there a clue in its reference to "mpeg 2 " ? Should I be trying to capture as mpg 1 ? The Tuner card has about a dozen preset codecs built in and I've tried all of them, but I should point out that they only kick in to process the video AFTER it's been imported and VirtualDub presumably does the same. My problem is the raw data being imported from the VCR. I'm up to speed on posting jpgs via ImageShack but how do I post a small mpg ? I've managed to make a small 2mb fileand I'd appreciate a clue on how to do that.
Thanks again. Fred

[fredhoward]

Jagabo,
I managed to get VirtualDub working by recording the input as an "mpg 1" file. I can see that it is an impressive bit of work and I'll be looking further into its uses, but as I thought, it can only work on the raw input and that raw input is already corrupted in some way. The Codecs that come with the 3200H are listed below, but they again are only activated after you press the "record" button. My problem is that when I am just viewing the VHS tapes via that Tuner card, and before recording in any one of these options, the problem is already there. I have another annoyance that is driving me mad and that is after I have changed the Codec recording options two or three times, all, except for the first two, disappear ! I can only get them back again by uninstalling/reinstalling the software! Not a problem to be solved here, I realise.
Fred

[jagabo]

Odd. VirtualDubMod usually has no problem importing MPEG 2 video.

You can upload a small MPG file (up to 6 MB) here using the Upload... Browse function below the message editing box.

The Tuner card has about a dozen preset codecs built in and I've tried all of them, but I should point out that they only kick in to process the video AFTER it's been imported...

So the device records in some other format and then converts to MPEG 2 (or whatever) later? Can you provide a small sample of that initial recording? At least export a frame use VirtualDubMod: Video -> Snapshot Source Frame... set the Save As Type to PNG. Post that picture using the upload files option here.

I have another annoyance that is driving me mad and that is after I have changed the Codec recording options two or three times, all, except for the first two, disappear ! I can only get them back again by uninstalling/reinstalling the software!

That sounds like a bug in the program. Settings like that are usually held in the Registry or an INI file. Creating a backup and restoring whenever the problem occurs might be a fix.

[Nelson37]

Try a short clip as uncompressed AVI, and try to find what the resolution is.

Looks like some sort of blen de-interlacing, maybe the vertical resolution is set to 240 rather that 480. What that basically means is that the card is taking two images which should take up the full screen, seperated by a fraction of a second, and merging them. A stationary shot masks this effect.

The "smeared" clip you posted is a pretty extreme example. Are most of them more like a sort of ghost or double image? Was camera movement severe for the first pic, if you look at the angles of the trees, did the camera swing that much in roughly 1/30 of a second?

Now that you have VDub, spend some time with it. Best single video tool for basic work there is. The things you will learn in using it are well worth the investment. Probably a better capture tool than what you are currently using, if nothing else try it for the preview to better analyse the problem.

[minidv2dvd]

could you post a screenshot of the settings page for the capture card? where you set the audio and video type. and any custom settings pages. not the codec type. it looks like the hardware is set wrong, maybe to the wrong pal type.

[fredhoward]

vcr%20problem.mpg

[fredhoward]

Sorry, I uploaded before previewing without these following words. Thanks for all the suggestions so far. I have tried all of the various versions of PAL, as well as every other setting on each tab. I've been at this for weeks before finding this site. As you can see from these settings I am again currently restricted to Mpeg 2 for capturing. However, that is not the issue. These tabs only come into play after I press the record button. The video corruption is there as soon as I start to play it via this software. I simply press "play"on the VCR and it starts to play in the open window. See below. I have tried to post a small mpg as per advice but I obviously haven't got the hang of it. I'll try again. I agree that ist seems to be a scanning problem due to screen size or interlacing but there are no tabs on this software other than what you see in the previous post. I can alter all sorts of stuff with regard to screen size or resolution once the video is imported, as I can with VirtualDub, but by then the harm has already been done. . I did get VirtualDub to open a file after I recorded it in mpeg 1, but it too had already been corrupted.
Anymore advice on how to upload that small mpg is appreciated. I use ImageShack for the jpgs and tried to import the video here using the same way but although I see a line that says"vcr%20problem.mpg", nothing happens when I/you click on it.
Fred

[fredhoward]

I've made one big improvement, but not to the video. I managed to get back all of those other video codecs by unticking the "Preview TV by hardware encoding" box,so at least I now have back all of those recording options. I recorded a section using "AVI" and although there are several "screen size" options, all of which work, none of them have any effect on the imported raw file problem. There seems to be no control in this software at all, over how the raw data is initially imported .
I thank you all for your kind help and suggestions.
Fred

[fredhoward]

Another attempt at uploading a small mpg.
Fred

[url=https://forum.videohelp.com/images/guides/p1996841/vcr%20problem.mpg

[fredhoward]

It seems to upload O.K, but I get this when I click on the link. I presume that everybody else does ?
Fred.
Thanks to ImageShack for the free Hosting and apologies for all of the space taken here too.
[/video]

[jagabo]

Your recording device is losing sync. This has nothing to do with what settings you use in the capture software. The tape may have a weak sync level or it may be stretched. You might be able to clean it up with a video stabilizer or time base corrector.

VirtualDub and VirtualDubMod had no problem opening the files you posted. A sample "bad" frame:


Animated sequence of one field only, reduced to 320x240, 2 fps:

[fredhoward]

Thanks, Jagabo. You sure know your stuff! I'm puzzled as to how you managed to get my uploaded video as I sure couldn't access it and still can't. Is it the VCR or the Tuner card when you refer to my "recording device?" If the former, I'm puzzled as to why the tape plays fine on my TV or this monitor if I connect it directly via an S-video socket on the back. I have over 40 of these 4hr tapes and 37 of them have the same problem ! Can they all be stretched and only display this error when the camera is moving aout ? I had then begun to use a Sony Digital 8 camera and then a Sony Mini DV and they all play back perfectly on the PC, via VHS tapes recorded on the same VCR. I think I mentioned earlier that I have two VCRs and both display the same problem. Your cleaned up shot is playing above where I type this and I'm amazed at what can be done here. I'll now enter another learning curve and try to educate myself on Time Base Correctors whilst I await any further response from you. As the Aussies say, "Your blood's worth Bottling!"
Thanks again.
Fred

[fredhoward]

Jagabo, Is this the sort of thing that I'm looking for? I realise that this one if for VHS to DVD but am I on the right track ?
Fred

http://digitalmegahouse.com.au/onlinestore/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=118

[danno78]

Say exactly what models of camcorders you have (Digital8 and miniDV). Some camcorders have the possibility to convert analog signal in digital signal and also have TBC embedded.

[jagabo]

By "capture device" I mean your Leadtek tuner card.

One part of Macrovision copy protection used on commercial video tapes involves playing with the sync signals in such a way that televisions are not effected, but VCRs, which are intentionally designed to be sensitive to the errors, are. Many computer capture devices are designed to be sensitive to Macrovision too. Unfortunately, many devices are overly sensitive. They will mistake normal sync variations from a poor VCR or old tape, as Macrovision, even though it does not really have Macrovision.

The link you gave to a video stabilizer is the type of device I was referring to. I don't know if it a good or bad one. I don't keep up with the state of the art in them.

An SVHS deck with a line time base corrector might be able to clean up the sync enough for your capture device. This would give you superior output, even with regular VHS tapes, too.

If neither of those work you will need a full frame time base corrector like the Datavideo TBC-100 or TBC-1000.

As danno78 brought up, some camcorders and some DVD recorders have built in line time base correctors that may be suitable.

Lordsmurf keeps up with this stuff. He might be able to offer some insight.

[danno78]

Now I remembered a similar problem with one card Leadtek.
I tried PVR2100 (drive by Conexant CX23418) in the past and I had many problems with him. This induces artifacts on all the VHS tapes and even those in very good condition or recently registered. After TBC activation all artifacts disappears. The other two tuners (Philips and ATI) had no defects even without TBC. Your Leadtek is drive by CX23885+CX23417 also from Conexant. Looks like TV tuners using Conexant cipset don`t like time base errors.

leadtek%20pvr%202100.gif

[fredhoward]

Thank you, Danno and Jagabo. The earlier Sony Digital 8 is a DCR-TRV250E and the Mini-DV is a TRV- HC38E. Both have i-Link and USB ports. There is quite a lot of mention of TBC in the manual and I think I can see what you are hinting at, but how would I use either of these units as a "pass through" for my crook VHS tapes ? All of the stuff recorded with these two Sony units is already faultless. The TRV250E stuff was transferred to VHS and the HC38E data was burnt to DVD. Unfortunately, 37 of my 43 VHS tapes were recorded with the Canon Hi-8 and all of them have this problem in various degrees over the whole length of the tapes. My fairly new Samsung HDTV plays back the crook tapes perfectly, but unfortunately there is a "sound out" output, but surpisingly, no "video out", or I could have tried that.
Below is a local TBC which looks like it can do the job, but my dilemma now is whether to try a much cheaper video stabiliser first or go to the TBC. If there is a way to try those Sonys first I'd love to know how.
Thanks again for all of your help and suggestions.
Fred.
Sorry, one last thing. How did you get my small mpg ? I still can't open it !

http://www.questronix.com.au/products/ctb100.htm

[danno78]

Below is a local TBC which looks like it can do the job, but my dilemma now is whether to try a much cheaper video stabiliser first or go to the TBC.

A cheaper video stabiliser is not good for you.

Sorry, one last thing. How did you get my small mpg ? I still can't open it !

Virtualdub-MPEG2 or VirtualdubMOD

Unfortunately none of the camcorders that you have can`t transform analog signal in digital form. References in the manual (DCR-TRV250E) mentions other models that have it (TRV345, TRV355, TRV356).
Your options are:
S-VHS VCR with TBC
DVD recorder with Line TBC (Panasonic ES10, ES15, Pioneer 520, 550, etc).
external TBC like CTB-100 (good model)

[jagabo]

Sony Digital 8 is a DCR-TRV250E and the Mini-DV is a TRV- HC38E. Both have i-Link and USB ports. There is quite a lot of mention of TBC in the manual and I think I can see what you are hinting at, but how would I use either of these units as a "pass through" for my crook VHS tapes ?

Basically, you plug the VCR into the digital camcorder with A/V cables, connect the camcorder to the computer with firewire, turn both on, press Play on the VCR, then capture with any DV capture software. The analog signal from the VCR is stabilized and digitized by the camcorder and sent out the firewire port as if it was recorded on tape or was coming from the camera's CCD.

Camcorders usually have a 4 conductor mini pin plug connector of A/V input. So you need a cable with that at one end and red/white/yellow RCA connectors at the other end for the VCR. Like this:

http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/CB-219/CAMCORDER-/-IPOD-A/V-CABLE/-/1.html

If the camcorder doesn't have pass-through you can record onto digital tape and playback from there to capture.

Note: not all camcorders have analog A/V recording/pass-through ability.

My fairly new Samsung HDTV plays back the crook tapes perfectly

That's a good sign. It indicates the tape and VCR are fine.

How did you get my small mpg ? I still can't open it !

I just clicked on the link in FireFox. Try right clicking and selecting Save As.

[fredhoward]

Thanks again and I thought I was home and hosed for a while there, as I already have a CB-219 cable that came with the TRV250E. However it definitely has no video IMPUT socket and neither has the HC38E. It came with a firewire to PC cable but that again is for A/V OUT. I can't use either of them to record to tape as they are both stuffed in that regard. Tape transport problems with both of them. That's why I have a Canon HF100 but it doesn't have an A/V imput either ! It takes wonderful HD video but it has one glaring omission that makes it damned near useless and that is the total lack of a viewfinder. I thought that it wouldn't matter, but try to video an aircraft going overhead towards the sun and it's impossible as you need one hand to hold the camera and the other to shield your eyes, with the result that as soon as you zoom, you lose the subject and can rarely get it back again before it's disappeared.
Thanks for the tip about opening my 2 second video. Got it.
So, unless there is such a thing as a cable with RCA connectors at one end and a mini i-Link at the other, I am screwed for now. I connected up the TRV250E and Vista immediately installed drivers for it and opened some sofware that looked very useful, but it seems there is no way to get A/V data into either of these devices.
Looks like I'd better start looking fo a price on that CTB 100.
Thanks again to you both, Danno and Jagabo. I've learnt a lot here.
Fred

[jagabo]

danno78 mentioned the possibility of a DVD recorder with built in TBC. In the USA you can find a used Panasonic ES15 for about US$50.

Another possibility is a capture card that is less sensitive to Macrovision and other timing errors. I have a Hauppauge PVR-250 which ignores Macrovision and produces a clean capture. Though not as good as you can get with a time base corrected signal.

[fredhoward]

Thanks again. I'm waiting till I get that "EasyCap" device from China, which is at least another way of getting the raw video into the PC. Being cheap, it won't be bothered with Macrovision etc. If that doesn't work I'll have to get a TBC.
Fred