HD Capture questions w/ Premiere pro

[miamibluemoon]

First off thanks for reading my post I really appreciate the help of the internet community, don't know what I would do without forums. Please feel free to comment or answer even just one of my questions, I need all the help I can get.

I have spent 2 weeks or so trying to get myself past the capturing step of my video editing nightmare. I love to do photo editing and thought it would be a good time to try something new.

I own a Sony FX-7 a 1080i HD camcorder

Shame on me I know for spending all the money as a beginner but I will spend money to learn something new.

Q.1.: Was this a right choice as a camera to use primarily for editing footage for events such as clubs and other nighttime activities?

I connect to my computer using a fire wire card that has worked fine using adobe premiere.

Q.2.: But after a lot of reading I was told that capturing to AVI, editing, then finishing it off as an MPEG2... is this the correct assumption? I got my information from this article http://www.keepandshare.com/doc3/view.php?u=1833

Reason I am trying to do this as I had only had premiere to start I just captured in MPEG (premiere WILL NOT let me capture in AVI) and the quality was horrible... the graininess was unbearable and not something I would turn into a client. I do a lot of fire videos for fire performers and the video on top of being grainy had thick horizontal black lines in the fire. I would love to get you guys a screen shot but for some reason every time I try to get VirtualDub to work it will not bring up my MPEG2 files giving me this error MPEG: File matches the profile of a Transport Stream and may not decode correctly. I tried googling this and got no answers, the video shows up %80 green. I am using the correct VD upgrade that opens MPEG-2.

If it is better to capture in AVI then I need to locate where Windows XP set my camcorder to automatically sync with premiere and not give me an option. When I first connected the camcorder to my computer it brought up options just like when I stick a memory card in asking what program I wanted to use this with, that stopped happening and no I did not set it to auto bring up premiere. I have looked for it everywhere like when you bring up computer and icons for connected hardware come up like my cell phone. I have also tried disabling the firewire connection and re enabling it just so that I may use other software besides premiere to capture my video. When I connect the camcorder I hear a ding and I know I can capture through premiere so it is connecting in there.

Q.3.: Where does my camcorder show up connected in XP?

Q.4.: Should I have a capture card or is fire wire adequate for what I am doing? Again I don't mind spending the money since it is for my business and I intend to be editing plenty of video

Q.5.: What software should I be using to get the best quality video capture from my HD 1080i footage. If it is so crisp and clean why does it loose so much of its quality when capturing? I have seen some great video and I have to wonder if I got what I thought was a pretty great camcorder what am I missing?

Q.6.: Because I want the best quality videos for my performers demos how can I use my website to hold the video instead of using websites like youtube? I want to play high quality video on my website.

Thanks!

[zoobie]

did you bother to read the manual?

[miamibluemoon]

to the camcorder or the software?

come to think of it if that is what you consider help, maybe I don't need yours.

anyone else have any complete questions?

[AlanHK]

anyone else have any complete questions?

Actually, that applies to you.

Forum rules

Try to choose a subject that describes your topic.
Please do not use topic subjects like Help me!!! or Problems.

Make posts with specific questions as the topics and you will get more useful replies.

[thecoalman]

Q.1.: Was this a right choice as a camera to use primarily for editing footage for events such as clubs and other nighttime activities?

I dunno did you check reviews for low light capability? That's paramount for shooting footage like that. You can get some very good quality in brightly lit outdoor scenes from even a cheap $300 mini-DV cam but once you put them in situation like that their flaws begin show quite bad. Also note you should have some presets and manual adjustmets on that cam for such situations. Here's some screencaps from CanonGL2 in really low light, the first one is auto mode and the second one is using a preset for low light conditions:

Auto:


Preset:


TYhe above may be partially responsible for the graininess you have, how does it look when you play it on a TV.

I connect to my computer using a fire wire card

That part is correct, I'm unfamialir with HD cams so can't shed ant more light on exactly what you need to do after that.

I got my information from this article http://www.keepandshare.com/doc3/view.php?u=1833

That's a rip-off of of frequent poster here named LS, even the dead image links go to his site. Anyhow that deals with capturing video, technically you're not capturing but transferring. It's lossless transfer. you want to transfer it in the native format.

had thick horizontal black lines in the fire.

Possibly interlacing which is normal, or do to poor on the fly conversion of interlaced material...

Q.3.: Where does my camcorder show up connected in XP?

Should be under cams in My Computer.

Q.6.: Because I want the best quality videos for my performers demos how can I use my website to hold the video instead of using websites like youtube? I want to play high quality video on my website.

You could just encode directly to WMV and upload a file and provide a link , that's simplest method. From their you can embed it in apge but that has cross broewser and platform issues. Ultimately to make it accessible to everyone you need to use something like flash or the new product from M$ called silverlight.

[miamibluemoon]

I'm sorry I wasn't more descriptive but i have varied beginner questions about capture... so I posted about needing beginner help in a capture forum.

I have read the manuals for what I buy, I cant see where that is relevant here. Another troll forum... hope not
the only thing it says is how to plug it in to the computer and to make sure you have software to edit it if you want too. oh and not to forget the fire wire.
nothing about what you need specifically to get the best quality video onto your computer.

thanks coalman for your response, I understand what you mean but maybe you mis understood my questions.

Under my computer where you find things like your PDA, Mp3 player, Digi cam and so on, there is no icon for my camcorder. I do not find it listed in hardware only the IEEE 1394 Host Controller is listed for my fire wire card.
When I fist plugged it in options came up for how I wanted to use it and with what program, I chose Premiere because its all I had installed at the time but did not set it to automatically open with that. Now my computer still dings to say the camcorder is now connected but gives me no options. It reads the camera fine when I goto capture. When I check to see the devices in use there is no camera at all, just the fire wire card.

I don't know how but this is preventing my connection with any other software besides premiere pro even if it is shut down, even if I had only opened WinDV. Just doesn't work.

When its in the preview capture window I can skim through the video and it looks fine, just as when I play it on TV... Its doesn't look fantastic for some low light conditions but when its captured and comes out the other side in MPEG2 and I view it on Media player crazy things happen.

I have tried all the settings on my camera, don't have any presets but have it to record on PP1, gain: 9db... still wouldn't make a difference as it looks fine on the cam screen, on monitor, on tv.

I have tried all 3 deinterlace options in premiere pro, although it does help with the lines I still wonder why the grain is so heavy if when viewed in the preview it looked fine.

Am I expecting too much? I am glad to hear that this is more of a transfer from one median to another but it doesn't feel like it. When I take pictures with my 12 MP cam they open in photoshop to the size I can see what your pimples are thinking. haha. from there you edit it and compress it to a good size for your project. Its ok if Its just not going to get any better but I would like to know that before going in to edit them.

Do I need anything extra from what I already have?

[miamibluemoon]

Nothing anyone?

[thecoalman]

Again unfamiliar with HD, that's one of the issues. Not a lot of people using them at the moment, not a lot of software that supports them etc. If you had come here first seeking advice you would have been told to get a standard mini-DV cam.

What I can tell you is this, you need to transfer the footage to you computer. This is a lossless transfer. For example if you transferred it to your computer, then back to the cam then repeated that process one million times assuming no corruption along the way its going to be the same as the original,... deinterlacing is no-no to begin with. You're most likely converting on the fly which is bad to begin with but if you trow in a deinterlacing filter or whatever it's going to be that much worse.

Once you get it to computer you need software that supports the format.

[joy]

Q.2.: But after a lot of reading I was told that capturing to AVI, editing, then finishing it off as an MPEG2... is this the correct assumption? I got my information from this article http://www.keepandshare.com/doc3/view.php?u=1833
Thanks!

The information in that article is correct.

[thecoalman]

Q.2.: But after a lot of reading I was told that capturing to AVI, editing, then finishing it off as an MPEG2... is this the correct assumption? I got my information from this article http://www.keepandshare.com/doc3/view.php?u=1833
Thanks!

The information in that article is correct.

Correct or not is really irrelevant, the point is it has nothing to do with transferring HD material. That article is in reference to capturing analog video. As mentioned its a rip off, and has been taken out of its origianl context which may lead to confusion. The original updated article can be found here: http://www.digitalfaq.com/dvdguides/capture/intro.htm

[aedipuss]

windv is for SD DVavi tape. to transfer HD try transferring the tape via firewire to the computer with HDVSplit and then importing the files into PP.

[joy]

Q.2.: But after a lot of reading I was told that capturing to AVI, editing, then finishing it off as an MPEG2... is this the correct assumption? I got my information from this article http://www.keepandshare.com/doc3/view.php?u=1833
Thanks!

The information in that article is correct.

Correct or not is really irrelevant, the point is it has nothing to do with transferring HD material. That article is in reference to capturing analog video. As mentioned its a rip off, and has been taken out of its origianl context which may lead to confusion. The original updated article can be found here: http://www.digitalfaq.com/dvdguides/capture/intro.htm

And what part of the article was it mentioned capturing analog video. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think digital video can be either be avi(dv-avi) or mpg, right.

Transfered/captured hdv or avchd video I believe is too much for the NLE (premiere) that's why softwares made by cineform and other companies came up to help the hd video producers/hobbyist tackle this problem.

Her assumption from reading that article was that's supposed to be the workflow for producing video/hd video, so I think she learned something small which will be a step forward for her hobby/work.

[thecoalman]

And what part of the article was it mentioned capturing analog video.

It doesn't reference it because its taken out its original context. That's part of series of articles written by LS. It deals with different aspects of "capturing" to AVI or MPEG. You don't "capture" digital video, you transfer it. It's an exact copy of what's on the tape/DVD/HDD or whatever storage medium it uses, this is a lossless process. No conversion, no codecs to mess... it's not much different than copying a file from one folder to another. The only thing that article would apply to is after the OP gets the video to his harddrive and even then most of the information is going to be irrelevant because it doesn't deal with HD material.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think digital video can be either be avi(dv-avi) or mpg, right.

Video on a mini-DV cam is DV-AVI , video on a DVD cam is mpeg. The HD cam the OP has I believe is high bitrate MPEG in a AVI wrapper but I'm not positive...

[edDV]

I'm sorry I wasn't more descriptive but i have varied beginner questions about capture... so I posted about needing beginner help in a capture forum.

I have read the manuals for what I buy, I cant see where that is relevant here. Another troll forum... hope not
the only thing it says is how to plug it in to the computer and to make sure you have software to edit it if you want too. oh and not to forget the fire wire.
nothing about what you need specifically to get the best quality video onto your computer.

thanks coalman for your response, I understand what you mean but maybe you mis understood my questions.

Under my computer where you find things like your PDA, Mp3 player, Digi cam and so on, there is no icon for my camcorder. I do not find it listed in hardware only the IEEE 1394 Host Controller is listed for my fire wire card.
When I fist plugged it in options came up for how I wanted to use it and with what program, I chose Premiere because its all I had installed at the time but did not set it to automatically open with that. Now my computer still dings to say the camcorder is now connected but gives me no options. It reads the camera fine when I goto capture. When I check to see the devices in use there is no camera at all, just the fire wire card.

I don't know how but this is preventing my connection with any other software besides premiere pro even if it is shut down, even if I had only opened WinDV. Just doesn't work.

When its in the preview capture window I can skim through the video and it looks fine, just as when I play it on TV... Its doesn't look fantastic for some low light conditions but when its captured and comes out the other side in MPEG2 and I view it on Media player crazy things happen.

I have tried all the settings on my camera, don't have any presets but have it to record on PP1, gain: 9db... still wouldn't make a difference as it looks fine on the cam screen, on monitor, on tv.

I have tried all 3 deinterlace options in premiere pro, although it does help with the lines I still wonder why the grain is so heavy if when viewed in the preview it looked fine.

Am I expecting too much? I am glad to hear that this is more of a transfer from one median to another but it doesn't feel like it. When I take pictures with my 12 MP cam they open in photoshop to the size I can see what your pimples are thinking. haha. from there you edit it and compress it to a good size for your project. Its ok if Its just not going to get any better but I would like to know that before going in to edit them.

Do I need anything extra from what I already have?

The Sony FX-7 is an HDV format camcorder but can also be set to work in standard definition DV format.

HDV format is MPeg2. Which version of Premiere Pro are you using?

The latest version CS3 supports HDV as a native project format. As such you first set the project to HDV, then capture the video over firewire following the instructions in Premiere CS3 help. Once you finish editing you can export as HDV format, record back to camcorder tape or encode for standard definition 720x480i DVD.

I don't recommend you deinterlace. Keep it in 1440x1080i HDV format. It will look fine on the TV when you are done. Put together some test clips and play to the TV through the camcorder for preview.

Windows Media Player is not up to the job of 1080i playback. Use VLC or PowerDVD instead. For VLC, set playback deinterlace to "discard" or "mean". Discard will play a single field as 960x540. Mean will deinterlace to 1920x1080. For normal 1080i playback, the HDTV will perform the deinterlace.

[miamibluemoon]

Coal where do I begin... can you explain what converting on the fly is and how I should avoid this? About deinterlacing I was trying to figure out how to capture the video and use it without deinterlacing. I am not using the video on a TV, it is for internet viewing.

Joy The article- I just wanted to know if using HDV is it still better to capture in AVI and finish off in MPEG? I do understand that HDV is originally MPEG but I asked this in hope that I would find a way to capture without having to deinterlace.

aedipuss- since I misunderstood what windv can do is it ok to just use PP cs3 to capture my HDV video? Again I was trying to use different capture methods to get past the lines on my fire videos.

edDV- Thanks ed I think I am getting closer to finding the answers I need. But I am not using this video for TV, I did download VLC and again I had to choose a deinterlace option inside the player to clean up the lines on the fire.

I wish very much I could post a screen shot but every screenshot player I try to use will not open the MPEG files that were captured in PP. Seems I’m going around in circles, but I think somewhere at the end of the tunnel there’s a reason that my video when captured does not look the same as when viewed through the window on my camcorder.

Thank you all for the help

[aedipuss]

you can try, but a few have had problems with pp HD capture and have found hdvsplit capturing and then importing to pp works. try pp first and if there's a problem go with hdvsplit.

[edDV]

edDV- Thanks ed I think I am getting closer to finding the answers I need. But I am not using this video for TV, I did download VLC and again I had to choose a deinterlace option inside the player to clean up the lines on the fire.

What are you intending for this video then?

Background threads:

On interlace
https://forum.videohelp.com/topic346546.html

more when you explain your goals.

[miamibluemoon]

I have many basic intentions of filming and editing kids parties and weddings but the fire performers need demos and that is what is causing me all the problems. Working with low light and fire makes everything complicated. I think Im just going to stick with capturing in PP and hoping later on I stumble upon something else that will work better. For now at least I have the tapes as my backup for bad capturing.

Can someone explain converting on the fly?

Anyways here is what I came up with... a nonsense 2 min video promoting my favorite fire dancer and some text play I did with after effects.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OU3Bcj_wlEg

I am still trying to figure out how to get the video not to show up in that square when in full screen... but I guess thats an issue for another forum

Thank you guys for the help

[thecoalman]

Can someone explain converting on the fly?

You're cam has native format, when you force a reencode to some other format during the transfer process that's considered converting on the fly. The difference between a standard conversion is it has to be done real time, generally not great idea if you can avoid it because the quality will suffer. There's other resoans as well especially for your case because you want to further edit it, you should be using the original source for editing.

[edDV]

Your sample video looked as if you were using auto exposure settings. There is nothing wrong with the camera other than a low light limit. All cameras have that but the extreme contrast of the fire causes the auto exposure settings to "pump". In other words, you are exposing for the fire when what you want to see is the dancer. The extremes of bright fire to darkness are too great and light reflected from the dancer is not continuously adequate.

The way a pro would approach this very difficult shoot is to light the set to put a minimum amount of light on the dancer and raise the overall black level.

Then a fixed exposure would be rehearsed that optimizes the reflected light off the dancer. The FX7 has a limited amount of "knee" that will help keep the fire from producing excessive white (clipping). That too needs to be rehearsed until an optimal fixed exposure is found.

The result should show a steady black level without noise pumping. The dancers will be minimally visible even when the fire reflection is low. All of this will help improve compression for You Tube. As it is the dark noise is causing blocking.

So it isn't a capture problem, it is a lighting and exposure problem. Minor touchups can be done in post but the noise is caused in the camera.


Further:

The "Fire Show Demo" shows extreme auto exposure pumping whenever fire gets into the center weighted auto exposure area. See how the background goes dark as the camera tries to expose for the fire.

The "Greg Maldonado poi burn" clip shows a more consistent exposure. Was that the same cameraperson and camcorder?