DVD Editing - "Smoothness" Issues

[xd00d]

Hi there!

I have a DVD I needed to remove some scenes from.

So far, I've:

1) copied the VOBs to my hard drive with Smart Ripper 2.41
2) created MPGs with Womble Mpeg Video Wizard
3) edited scenes with Media Studio Pro 7

Now. The source from steps 1 and 2 both have smooth-scrolling end credits. The exported result from MSP 7 does not.

I've created a new movie, moving an object along a moving path and confirmed: MSP7 is indeed capable of rendering smooth video. However, with my edited file, it's exporting very jerky video which is the most obvious at the end credits.

I'd rather not hear "well MSP7 is garbage, I recommend [x] instead" - believe me, I've tried others. They either can't import VOBs, can't work with MPGs, or export poor quality video.

The source files from steps 1 and 2 are both 29.97 fps; I believe they're both interlaced as well.

Any tips based on previous experience would be greatly appreciated!

[thecoalman]

Go to project settings and match the settings of the video (bitrate, resolution,field order). When you go to "create video" make sure smart render is selected.

There's a good chance you are sleceting the wrong field order, having said that if you match the settings in the project settings or when you go to create a file using smartrender it should only reencode the video where the content of frames have changed. Two benefits, no loss in quality and its very fast.

[guns1inger]

Any reason why you don't just edit in Womble ?

[xd00d]

I definitely would have preferred to keep it all in one program, but some of the edits I needed to do were rather extensive. As far as I know, Womble only has one video track, and you can't separate the audio from video (let me know if there's a newer version that allows this, though).

Go to project settings and match the settings of the video (bitrate, resolution,field order). When you go to "create video" make sure smart render is selected.

Womble tells me the original is:
- VBR 9800
- AC3 48KHz/448 kbps
MSP7 won't allow these settings, as they exceed the max bitrate possible (it lowers the video quality to compensate).
I need to squeeze it onto a DVD anyway, and the end product of a 9800 VBR export won't fit.

There's a good chance you are sleceting the wrong field order, having said that if you match the settings in the project settings or when you go to create a file using smartrender it should only reencode the video where the content of frames have changed. Two benefits, no loss in quality and its very fast.

The issue of field order is the one that plagued me for the last couple days.

I believe the source video to be interlaced. And, just to be sure, interlaced NTSC = upper fields first = "order A" in MSP7, correct?

At any rate, I actually had to change the Project Settings to "frame based" and export "frame based" MPGs from MSP7 or the opening titles looked all blurry. If there's anything I know, my interlacing export settings are definitely correct!

So Smart Render only affects output speed? I've always exported both (with and without) and have never been able to tell the visual difference.

[thecoalman]

The field order depends on the source , DV for example is always lower field or BFF or... I can't really give you a good way to determine what a MPEG is, never really had that issue as all my source material is DV so I already know that it's lower field.

FYI if your copy of MSP is still listing fields of A and B then there is at least one update for it. You should get it, one option it adds is the selection for two pass encoding.

[xd00d]

hmmm...

I've just done a little test:

1) Create new project in MSP7
2) Import Womble-created MPG
3) Export 6-second preview range of end credits

This is without making any edits of any kind.

End result was still jerky.

[xd00d]

I hadn't realized I'm so behind the times. Apparently they've released a few new versions since 7. O.o

I'm going to give the trial versions of MSP8 and VSP11 a try right now!

[thecoalman]

MSP7 won't allow these settings, as they exceed the max bitrate possible (it lowers the video quality to compensate).

In the compression tab switch it to MPEG-2 instead of a DVD template, you can set any bitrate you want. The DVD preselect won't allow you to out of spec...

So Smart Render only affects output speed? I've always exported both (with and without) and have never been able to tell the visual difference.

Smartrender is used in two ways, first if you have used the same settings as your video during preview it will only encode what it has to. e.g you see exactly what is going to be created. Secondly its used to encode just whats needed, you do have to make sure the settings exactly match your source video.

[thecoalman]

My post for the update was in reference to update for MSP7... You can find it on Uleads site.

[guns1inger]

I also suspect that the video bitrate is not actually 9800, but that 9800 has been written to the header and MSP just reads the header. After exporting the video form Womble you should be able to patch the header with a lower number to stop MSP re-encoding.

[Alex_ander]

I definitely would have preferred to keep it all in one program...

If you want to just remove some scenes, you could use DVDRemake or VOBBlanker without extraction or conversion. Both are capable of splitting cells with VOB unit accuracy and replacing the unwanted material with small empty blocks (they are bypassed at playback and don't cause a visible delay).

[thecoalman]

Almost forgot, it may also be the medi source options are incorrect, select the clip in the timeline > properties > media source options, then make sure you have the right field order selected.

[jman98]

I definitely would have preferred to keep it all in one program, but some of the edits I needed to do were rather extensive. As far as I know, Womble only has one video track, and you can't separate the audio from video (let me know if there's a newer version that allows this, though).

Why on earth would you want to do this? Do you not realize that if you edit them separately that you have an excellent chance of having out of sync audio?

I've done a little recent experimentation with Ulead DVD Movie Factory Plus 6 and created some test HD DVDs with it. I need more time to play with it further, but I can tell you that I have selected both BFF and TFF (supposedly my source MPEG video is TFF but I tried both) and it re-rendered everything in making my HD DVD, even though my source should have been OK as is. It looks like crap in a lot of places. It may just be that Ulead just sucks if it has to re-encode anything. When I get some more time I'm going to see if I can keep re-encoding to a minimum or possibly eliminate it in making HD DVDs because if it is going to do this for everything I want to burn as HD DVD, then it simply won't be a reasonable solution for me.

[thecoalman]

jman I believe MF is a little different, there's an option for "Do Not convert compliant video" . Check the Ulead forums as there is some trick to easily get it to do this at least for DVD compliant video. MSP is a little more complicated but it's also pretty complex editor and this particular version is about 5 or 6 years old.

As far as the audio goes I don't know what the OP's original intention are but bear in mind MSP is full blown editor with capabilities similar to Premiere or Vegas, you can for example work with up to 99 overlay tracks or 6 audio tracks. It also integrates with other apps like soundforge, you can work on the audio track right in the timeline.

[xd00d]

Whoah!

Thanks for all the replies, guys. I'm really sorry for having posted this thread as I didn't realize there was a newer version out. Still, it's obvious this is the place I need to go whenever I have a video-editing-related question. Thanks again.

The jittery issue seems to have been fixed as of MSP8... either that, or I've been staring at scrolling text for so long I have no idea what looks "right" any more. At any rate, I think I'm just going to slap it on DVD and get on with my life.

One question: could it have been the GOP structure? Is that the same thing as keyframes, or do keyframes not apply to DVD video? Internet video clips, for example, will pause a little every keyframe (every 15th frame).

[thecoalman]

The default settings in MSP8 were probably correct, before jumping on the MSP8 bandwagon you should be aware that the possibility exists there might not be any new releases. Corel bought them out a year or two ago anf they are concentrating on VS and MF. MSP and DVDWS are on the backburner and by all indications I see and have read will no longer be developed.

[xd00d]

boo to that!

I tried VideoStudio 11 last night; semi-usable mickey mouse programs really don't appeal to me, heheh

[Richard_G]

I've used MSP since version 5 and tried the trial of 8. After a couple of hours I went back to 7.2. If you are still running 7 there are updates for it that you haven't downloaded and installed. One of the changes the updates give is it now refers to field order as upper and lower instead of A and B to save any confusion. As for Videostudio, MovieFactory, etc, they are toys designed for ease of use, MSP is, as it's name suggests, a package intended for Pro users. It may not quite be at the top of the tree but it isn't far behind.

I suggest that the reason, as has already been pointed out, for the lack of smoothness is wrong field order. Right click any of the clips on the timeline and select Properties, it will tell you what the field order is. Set your project settings and output format the same and when you save select Smartrender. If the preview window shows the whole footage while rendering, it is re-encoding. If it doesn't and only shows the transitions, it isn't.

Unlike toytown software, in MSP you can split the audio from the video without any loss of sync. I do it on every project I do. I work with 3 clips shot simultaneously and, once they are synched with each other I then split the audio so I an edit the video but leave the audio untouched. Out of sync audio doesn't happen.

[xd00d]

For me, wrong field order rears its ugly head instantly in the form of a blurry or blocky image. Jittery video is just an added bonus, and happens regardless of which field order I use.

[Richard_G]

Wrong field order on it's own won't cause a blurred or blocky image, just jittery pans and scrolling. Something else is causing those effects.

[guns1inger]

wrong field order rears its ugly head instantly in the form of a blurry or blocky image

Wrong field order produces juddering on motion scenes. What you are describing sounds like low bitrates or a poor encoder

[xd00d]

Alright, you axed for it!

Original file: NTSC DVD, 29.97 fps, upper fields first (this is straight from MSP's right-click Properties)

Exporting the movie as FRAME-BASED:

Note the sharpness around "Presents"


Exporting the movie as UPPER FIRST (yes, same settings as the original clip)

Note extra blurriness.


For sh*ts and giggles, here's LOWER FIRST:

Even more blur.


The jittery movement happens in all 3 exported files, regardless of field order. Clips can be provided on request.

I know it doesn't make sense, but exporting an upper-field movie as frame-based preserves the image quality, whereas exporting upper as upper makes it blurry. For me, this has always been the case in MSP, even when working from raw DV off a camcorder.

In my opinion, what MSP actually does:
- when you save as frame-based, it neither interlaces nor de-interlaces the image (preserves whatever image is present, regardless of field order)
- when you save as upper or lower frame, it re-interlaces the image, regardless of source attributes

[guns1inger]

The bottom clip is blurry because of the jitter of the fields being in the wrong order. If you look closely that is obviously the cause.

The top one is softer because of the encoder being used. This is something to do with the configuration of MSP's encoder.

That said, mpeg encoding is temporal, so a still image proves nothing at all.

[thecoalman]

Post a sample of your source clip. 5 seconds would be good. Also note depending on how you have the preview settings they can affect the viewable ouput. I'd take my screenshots outside of MSP to eliminate any thing it may be doing to the preview.

[thecoalman]

I know it doesn't make sense, but exporting an upper-field movie as frame-based preserves the image quality, whereas exporting upper as upper makes it blurry. For me, this has always been the case in MSP, even when working from raw DV off a camcorder.

DV is bottom field...

I posted a link above perhaps you should read it: https://forum.videohelp.com/topic257631.html

[xd00d]

Well, last night I:

1) Made a brand-new clip of a few test areas using Womble
2) The clips were created almost instantly, so I know nothing was modified
3) Brought them into MSP8
4) Exported with all 3 field orders

Exact same results! The image is sharpest when using Frame-Based field order (I understand MPG is temporal; the saved screenshot is exactly as it appears in the player while playing).

Unless, of course, it would be sharper on my computer screen, but flickery on my TV? I suppose I should put all these clips on a real DVD for the true test?

I can make clips of anything you guys want - I really appreciate that you're willing to look into this for me. Let me know specifically what you need (length, field order, first or second generation) and I'll upload some.

(My observation about DV wasn't specific to upper, just that exporting in FB looks best.)

[Richard_G]

Ahh, now we get somewhere. The preview in MSP often looks jittery, particularly with scrolling text. I have a TV set as a dual head device and that displays a full screen preview so I see exactly what I'll get. In the MSP preview window it jitters, on the TV it doesn't.

[xd00d]

hehe no, I never use the preview window.

The jitteriness is in the exported files, viewed in multiple video players (Media Player Classic, VLC, Windows Media Player, and the VOBs in WinDVD 7).

[thecoalman]

Post a sample of your source clip.

[xd00d]

Sorry
Busy weekend.

http://www.xdude.com/forums/wtb-jittertest.zip

Contains 2 clips, direct exports from Womble sans-jitter.