No Subsciption-free DVR + DVD-Recorder Combo in USA???

[mltwitz]

I just came back from Germany and saw that there DVD-Recorder+DVR Combo set-top devices are extremely popular and cheap (<$300, you can even buy it at Aldi!) and don't require any subscription service like TiVo. I started surfing the web to find recorders like this here in the US and it seems this type of subscription-less combo does not exist here. Is it possible we are getting ripped off by companies like TiVO and are being charged for a service that should be free in the first place while in other countries this technology exists without subscription? I found in the US you can either buy a DVR which all require a subscription in order to fully work (I still don't understand why I have to subscribe to a service that is already provided by my cable provider) or a DVD-recorder with internal hard drive which seem to have become very rare and expensive (>$800), but are there also combos? Maybe I have overlooked certain playeres/brands? Can someone help me/recomend stand-alone devices with the following features:

- ATSC tuner
- internal hard drive (at least 40GB)
- DVD burner
- Video editing
- DVR type capability (TV channel guide, program selcetion/recording) WITHOUT subscription service

Thanks in advance

[jman98]

I have asked a somewhat similar question about DVRs - is it possible to buy any WITHOUT a subscription? People both here on these forums and those I know who own Tivos (I don't have one, I was interested for a family member) all swear that Tivos can indeed be bought without paying a subscription and used like a VCR where you manually program in what you want to record.

I am not sure if any combos like you propose exist here. DVD recorders have not sold well here and many companies have abandoned the US market for them. DVD recorders with hard drives are almost impossible to find now. My gut feeling is that there is no single device available in the USA that can do what you want. Those who make DVRs don't make it easy to get the video off of them and onto a DVD as Hollyweird doesn't want you to do that and the companies that sell DVRs here do everything that Hollyweird asks them to do.

[wabjxo]

The perfect HDD DVDR for you is the Philips DVDR3575H/37, which has a 160GB HDD and NTSC/ATSC/QAM tuners.

This was a 2007-2008 model, still available, and Philips is soon (Apr-May) coming out with the 3576, which uses the same manual so it'll essentially operate the same.

Click my signature for lots of info on both units.

[jjeff]

I second Wajo's suggestion. The 3575 should do all you want with possibly the exception of what you meant by "(TV channel guide, program selcetion/recording)" . The 3575 uses a VCR type programmer. It's not a TV guide service like Tivo.
Tivo is also available for $699 for a lifetime subscription + the ~$300 unit, but Tivo lacks the DVD burner.
Your only "real" choice would be the 3575, but note like all DVDR's it's only SD, but if recording off a HD channel I'd call it more "HD lite" like. Much better than a analog DVDR or a VCR.
Magnavox makes a "cheaper" similar unit and Polaroid makes even a "cheaper" unit, but again like I said you really only have one "real" choice. I couldn't in good conscience suggest those last 2.

[mltwitz]

"The 3575 should do all you want with possibly the exception of what you meant by "(TV channel guide, program selcetion/recording)" . The 3575 uses a VCR type programmer. It's not a TV guide service like Tivo."

Why is that? Why can't the DVD-Recorder retrieve the channel lineup through the cable box and use it for recording programming? Why do I need TiVO to be able to do that? The devices in Germany showed a simple channel lineup that I guess was fed through the cable box and you just had to checkmark the shows you wanted to record. No need for an additional "Nazi"-Pay-Service.

Anyway, thanks for all your advice!

[wabjxo]

A TVGOS feature is available on older units and is implemented in FW, for the most part. Pioneer 53x/63x series did a bad job in that implementation and left a bad taste for an otherwise excellent HDD recorder. Pioneer produced the Pio 640, but left out any Title transfer, even from a Title you gave in the Timer rec menu. They had to refurbish/replace many units till we found the FW download online that they refused to make available. Panasonic produced the 2006 55 and 75 models with TVGOS that would work with satellite, but new ones no TVGOS (I believe). Then the switch to digital complicated things since the old TVGOS was analog in VBI. Shortly thereafter, Pio announced it was exiting the DVD recorder business, at least for the U.S. market... they must have had some designs/work done on new units cuz Canada got some, but don't think there'll be a Pio DVDR in the North American future... ???

[jjeff]

'06 was the last year for TVGOS in the Panny's and with the exception of analog tuner would really fit the bill for the OP. Another thought if you really wanted guide type programming and could give up the DVDR (but would gain "true HD") would be the soon to be released Echostar TR-50. Everyone's hoping it doesn't turn out to be vapor wear. I think July?? was the last date I read. Oh the big catch for most, it's for OTA only.
Truthfully with the exception of guide programming(which doesn't bother me in the least) the Philips would really be the only choice. For whatever reason Europe has a far bigger selection of what you want, but due to standards they won't work for the US.
Link to Echostar thread if interested.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=972197

[CrazyCanuck]

We still have a good selection of DVDR/HDD recorders here in Canada and I suspect for the fact that we are not going ATSC for now (wish we were) allows Pioneer (and others) to sell out some of their NTSC-only based recorders stock here (and other NTSC-based areas) whereas if they wanted to sell in the US, the recorders needed to be produced/fitted with an ATSC tuner or no tuner at all so I guess they decided to stand back for a while.

We are seeing signs that the current batch of NTSC Pioneer HDD recorders (650K, 250GB) are running out, one of our big box stores (Future Shop) had them on sale last week and called it a clearance sale. Hopefully DVDR/HDD recorders will be back once the ATSC system turnover is succesful and stable.

[jjeff]

IMO Canada has seen the last of it's Pannys and Pios w/hdd's. From what I have read Canada will now get the Panasonic EZ line (with digital tuners) and I really doubt they will import one with a HDD. If they do I may seriously consider one during my yearly trip to Canada(Thunder Bay/Terrace Bay Ontario area).

[mltwitz]

After reading all this I think I will consider recording TV on my PC and edit/burn it from there, as I really insist on some type of guide programming (TVGOS) and I absolutely refuse paying one cent for the TiVO scam, as a matter of principle.

Here we go...any suggestions for a good PC TV Tuner Card?

[orsetto]

The FreeView-style off-air program guide available in Europe is much better implemented than the the TV Guide On Screen system that failed spectacularly here in the USA. Although FreeView has advertising, etc, there does seem to be some minimal oversight by government agencies to keep it workable. The system in America is unfortunately tied to the ever-drowning and scrambling for money "TV Guide" syndicate, and while some thought TVGOS was better than nothing most find it too messy to be worth the effort.

In the USA, TiVO was in place several years before TVGOS. One can object to TiVO fees on principle, but Americans LOVE the way it operates and the free TVGOS system pales in comparison. Also, the USA has the highest usage in the world of recording cable/satellite boxes- a phenomenon virtually unknown most everywhere else. Many of these boxes can record in HDTV, and their embedded TiVO-like program guide is perfectly integrated with the cable/satellite service. Most important of all, these boxes rent for a trivial amount of money: between the integrated program guide and low monthly cost, these boxes have virtually wiped out the market for DVD/HDD recorders in the USA.

By some miracle, our largest retailer (Wal*Mart) decided there was still a good business in selling DVD/HDD recorders to the small subgroup of Americans who are too peculiar or too cheap to rent the cable/satellite recorders. They convinced Phillips to make at least one model compatible with our new digital ATSC broadcasts. That model 3575 has been a runaway success, partially because its a nice unit but mostly because its the ONLY such recorder available in most USA cities. Earlier Phillips units were none too good, so all of us here are hoping the new successor model 3576 is identical or at least equal in quality to the 3575.

As for me, awhile back I picked a couple of low-end Pioneer Canada DVD-HDD recorders online at a decent price and plan on wearing them out slowly. I've been using Pioneers for three years now, I like the way they work, and I don't need an ATSC tuner because I tape from my cable service line outputs. I'm stuck juggling the recorder timer and my cable box timer simultaneously, which isn't ideal, but worth the compromise to be able to edit and archive my recordings (this is not possible using those super-popular "recording cable boxes").

[jman98]

After reading all this I think I will consider recording TV on my PC and edit/burn it from there, as I really insist on some type of guide programming (TVGOS) and I absolutely refuse paying one cent for the TiVO scam, as a matter of principle.

Here we go...any suggestions for a good PC TV Tuner Card?

If you want to record standard definition, you can't really beat the Hauppauge PVR-250 or PVR-350 (has TV out but otherwise no difference from the 250) cards. I've had the 350 for years now and it gives excellent results. If you want to record high def, I'm not sure what cards are best. I record high def by using a driver to record directly via firewire from my cable box to my PC. If you need info on how to do that, send me a private message but please be patient as it may take me until Monday to get back to you.

I also record to my PC and edit there and have never bought a DVR. It works fine for me.

[proprietor]

Dear all,
I just moved back from China to the USA.
When I left in 2001, there were only few HDD DVRs in the market and we were still using old VCRs.
To keep the long story short, I AM TOTALLY SHOCKED when I was asked to pay $10 per month to use the DVR in MY home by my cable company. Well, I returned the product, and of course cancelled the service. I checked with satellite provider, same thing but $6 per month. Then I checked the 'free' market such as TiVO, $20 per month. This is what I call (politely) a rip-off. I am one of those who developed DVRs and PVRs (personal video recorders) for Chinese and European market. It's more than sad to see that in my home country, my fellow citizens are being charged for something almost all other nations pay nothing at all but the initial cost of the DVR. OR am I wrong? I mean is there a subscription-free DVR 'service' that I am not aware of?
OR, is there a law/rule/regulation against importing one of those $150 for-life DVRs into the USA?
Do we really need to be the slaves of the cable/satellite providers and/or TiVO-like companies for many years just to get something we can buy for $150 including a minimum 500GB HDD in it?

[freebird73717]

Really digging up old threads there friend. I know that your post is on topic with the thread but you would have been beter to just start a new thread.

Now to answer your question I know that there are a "few" no subscription dvr's still in the states. I don't know the model numbers but there are at least one magnavox and one panasonic dvdrecorder with a hard drive and an atsc tuner. You could do a forum search to try to find out about them as they have been discussed here before.

Also there is the moxi dvr
http://www.moxi.com/us/
Of course the moxi will only work with cable and not free over the air atsc signals

Good luck. And welcome to the forums.

[jjeff]

Here is a nice comparison chart. You didn't say if it had to be HD but if so it eliminates all DVDRs which are SD by design.
I use a lifetime Tivo HD for OTA, it has no monthly fees but it was a steep $$599 upfront.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=17063966&postcount=2

[usually_quiet]

Those $150 subscription-free boxes from Aldi supermarkets in Europe won't work with the US ATSC TV system. The tuners and/or firmware won't work correctly here. How can you not know that if you developed them?

No program guide, records standard definition only, fine for over-the-air, analog cable, and unencrypted digital cable. You can burn a DVD if you like.
http://www.walmart.com/ip/Magnavox-MDR515H-F7-500GB-HDD-and-DVD-R-with-Digital-Tuner/1...i_sku=15080509

Limited program guide, standard and high definition recording, and only for over-the-air, but as far as I know there is no way to easily copy recordings from the hard drive
http://www.walmart.com/ip/Channel-Master-CM-7000PAL-Antenna-HD-DVR/13968952?findingMethod=rr

Otherwise, if you have a good reception, an amplified antenna, and a newish computer with Windows 7 Home Premium connected to the Internet, install one or two ATSC TV tuner cards. I did that last year and have been pleased with the results. I'm even more pleased now that I have a good amplifier for my indoor antenna.

[jjeff]

Limited program guide, standard and high definition recording, and only for over-the-air, but as far as I know there is no way to easily copy recordings from the hard drive
http://www.walmart.com/ip/Channel-Master-CM-7000PAL-Antenna-HD-DVR/13968952?findingMethod=rr

I didn't realize W/M sold the CM and AFA offloading it, your only choice is realtime copying from the composite output to a DVDR/VCR or computer with a composite input.
I was really looking at the CM(or actually Echostar Pal DVR back then) but lack of a S-video output killed the deal for me. I just despise recording from composite anymore, S-video is as low as I prefer to go. Except when the source is regular VHS in which case composite is generally your only choice.

[proprietor]

Thank you for the prompt replies.
A few other forums (members) do not like a new thread with the same topic, but I agree with you.

I did some research (that's how I found this thread) and I believe this was the closest to my needs.

I appreciate your replies. Previously I found Moxi and lifetime-TiVo but don't you think they're overpriced?
The good thing is, these two DVRs made me think that it's possible (legal) to import and sell those kind
of DVRs.

Does anyone, by chance know that do the manufacturers and/or the sellers/importers pay some sort of loyalty fees
to the content providers such as Comcast, Dish Network or Time Warner etc?

Don't think that I'm only here to waste your time, it may help us (and US) save some money.
I see no reason to pay $600 or $6, $10, $20 per month for something that is not more than $150 to built.
Even if we triple the cost by including customs, shipment etc, it's hard to explain $600 value.

Thanks again.

[usually_quiet]

Thank you for the prompt replies.
I appreciate your replies. Previously I found Moxi and lifetime-TiVo but don't you think they're overpriced?
The good thing is, these two DVRs made me think that it's possible (legal) to import and sell those kind
of DVRs.

Does anyone, by chance know that do the manufacturers and/or the sellers/importers pay some sort of loyalty fees
to the content providers such as Comcast, Dish Network or Time Warner etc?

Thanks again.

Providing the guide and updates for the software that operates the DVR to subscribers would be the main expenses for the subscription based DVRs. I don't know what if anything they pay to the cable and satellite companies for scheduling information.

TiVo owns the US patents for various DVR features. They sued DISH network for patent infringement, and won. Others who make DVRs or DVR software with similar features to theirs may be paying royalties to TiVo.

[usually_quiet]

I didn't realize W/M sold the CM and AFA offloading it, your only choice is realtime copying from the composite output to a DVDR/VCR or computer with a composite input.
I was really looking at the CM(or actually Echostar Pal DVR back then) but lack of a S-video output killed the deal for me. I just despise recording from composite anymore, S-video is as low as I prefer to go. Except when the source is regular VHS in which case composite is generally your only choice.

A reviewer on Amazon wrote that it has component video out too. Get a Hauppage HD PVR for the PC and you can even record in HD.

[proprietor]

I'd like to address usually_quiet's answer too.

S/He's right. European models won't work here but the cost (hardware and firmware) is same.
I mean you don't need to question my abilities, background or knowledge.
Change the tuner, and implement the software that's it. We had the following solution in 2006

DVD RW, 1 HDMI in, 1HDD (up to 166GB), encrypted recording (for US market ==> can't copy or transfer the content),
DVB-T+Card (5 in 1)+USB; DivX, MP3, JPEG; Outputs: HDMI, Scart (European thing), YPbPr, S-Video,
CVBS, Optical, Coaxial, 5.1-ch.

Walmart's Channel Master is nothing but something similar to what I wrote above. However, our export
price (from China) was $49 + HDD (for 5,000 pieces per order) whereas Walmart charges well over $300.
I mean even if you don't order/buy as many pieces as Walmart buys, there's still a huge profit here.

So, I believe that question is not whether I know how to build a DVR, PVR or not, the question is
why we're paying monthly fee for the DVR 'service'

[proprietor]

Thank you for the prompt replies.
I appreciate your replies. Previously I found Moxi and lifetime-TiVo but don't you think they're overpriced?
The good thing is, these two DVRs made me think that it's possible (legal) to import and sell those kind
of DVRs.

Does anyone, by chance know that do the manufacturers and/or the sellers/importers pay some sort of loyalty fees
to the content providers such as Comcast, Dish Network or Time Warner etc?

Thanks again.

Providing the guide and updates for the software that operates the DVR to subscribers would be the main expenses for the subscription based DVRs. I don't know what if anything they pay to the cable and satellite companies for scheduling information.

TiVo owns the US patents for various DVR features. They sued DISH network for patent infringement, and won. Others who make DVRs or DVR software with similar features to theirs may be paying royalties to TiVo.

Now, this makes great sense. Thanks a lot for the explanation.
However, getting the content (TV guide let's say) from a website and implementing it to a DVR is not something
impossible to do. I think Walmart's Channel Master works in that way.

I'll check what patents TiVo owns, that's where the difficulty lies.

[usually_quiet]

Thank you for the prompt replies.
I appreciate your replies. Previously I found Moxi and lifetime-TiVo but don't you think they're overpriced?
The good thing is, these two DVRs made me think that it's possible (legal) to import and sell those kind
of DVRs.

Does anyone, by chance know that do the manufacturers and/or the sellers/importers pay some sort of loyalty fees
to the content providers such as Comcast, Dish Network or Time Warner etc?

Thanks again.

Providing the guide and updates for the software that operates the DVR to subscribers would be the main expenses for the subscription based DVRs. I don't know what if anything they pay to the cable and satellite companies for scheduling information.

TiVo owns the US patents for various DVR features. They sued DISH network for patent infringement, and won. Others who make DVRs or DVR software with similar features to theirs may be paying royalties to TiVo.

Now, this makes great sense. Thanks a lot for the explanation.
However, getting the content (TV guide let's say) from a website and implementing it to a DVR is not something
impossible to do. I think Walmart's Channel Master works in that way.

I'll check what patents TiVo owns, that's where the difficulty lies.

Private individuals do not usually have to pay for Internet based guide information. (Although there is one subscription-based non-profit source here. The cost is $20/year.) However, I know for certain that if a company built a product that used the free ones, it would have to pay a fee. The Channel Master product uses TVGOS where available from a local broadcaster, or PSIP data from each channel's ATSC broadcast in locations where TVGOS is unavailable. It does not use the Internet for guide data.

[jjeff]

A reviewer on Amazon wrote that it has component video out too. Get a Hauppage HD PVR for the PC and you can even record in HD.

That's true, if you had a device to record from component(480p and above, AFAIK the CM won't do 480i) you'd get much better picture quality, SD or HD.

[oldfart13]

You might want to wait a bit and get one of these:

http://www.mediasmartserver.net/2010/12/02/hauppauge-colossus-hd-pvr-announced/

http://cetoncorp.com/products.php

[usually_quiet]

You might want to wait a bit and get one of these:

http://www.mediasmartserver.net/2010/12/02/hauppauge-colossus-hd-pvr-announced/

http://cetoncorp.com/products.php

The CableCARD PC tuner that interests me most is the one from SiliconDust and Hauppauge with 3 tuners. I wish they would set a release date.

[proprietor]

There's a nice review of CM's DVR here:

http://www.bigpicturebigsound.com/DTV-Pal-OTA-HDTV-Receiver-DVR-Channel-Master-CM-7000PAL.shtml

Well, it was me who asked for it, but who knows, some of you might like it too.

This one and Moxi are good products even the Magnavox that Walmart sells. However, the prices are ridiculously high!
I'm sure we'll have cheaper DVRs in 2011.
It may take a while to get a free 'DVR service' though. Otherwise TiVo bankrupts.
It's also weird to know that we can get the DVR features at a low cost with the aid of our computers but many others, especially those who are not too familiar with the PCs can't get it.
I can guarantee you that, there'll be a nice, affordable DVR with a nice user interface, before the end of 2011.

[orsetto]

I'll check what patents TiVo owns, that's where the difficulty lies.

You are misreading the situation: the TiVO patents are not the obstacle. North America, more specifically USA, unexpectedly took a turn some years ago in forms of television consumption that isolated it from the rest of the world video recorder market and made it unprofitable to sell generic non-subscription devices here. While its true the depressed economy has had some impact, the primary signal source for most Americans remains cable or satellite service, not free off-air broadcasts. Each city has a different proprietary cable service with its own program schedule system, as do the two most popular satellite services. All of these services make it difficult to the point of impossible for generic recorders to integrate with them for easy one-touch timer recording: their schedule information is locked within their proprietary decoder boxes and unavailable to external non-subscription devices. Attempts were made to work around this with the kludgy independent TVGOS scheduling signal service, but its implementation was much too difficult for average consumers to bother with and it was not properly supported by its vendor. Satellite remains hopelessly out of reach for any independent recorder, the subscription satellite recorder is the only feasible choice. Cable is nearly as bad, but the popularity of TiVO allowed it to force a wedge into cable connectivity using the otherwise-DOA CableCard option promoted by our government regulators. Cable companies still resist and make installation difficult and time consuming, and integration is not as seamless as it should be, but TiVO does work reasonably well with cable to record High Def content and stream it to a PC for archival purposes. A significant number of people are happy to pay the TiVO fees for the ability to record and transfer HDTV to any device of their choice. But the vast majority could care less about keeping anything permanently, they want one-touch integrated disposable recording and are perfectly happy to spend $6-10 per month to their cable satellite company for the privilege.

People who participate on this type of forum, myself included, tend to have passionate feelings about wanting independent non-subscription recorders that can easily make permanent copies. We get worked up about it, and post a lot, but we're really a tiny tiny fraction of the American market: there is no money to be made in catering to us. Even the lowest-income Americans have no objection to paying a DVR rental fee: proportionally, its a mere 8% of the average cable bill. Those here who object the loudest to monthly PVR fees are viewed as eccentrics and cranks by the larger population (who can't understand what the fuss is about). Wal*Mart loses money on every Magnavox DVD/HDD recorder it sells, even though they have an exclusive and its been the ONLY non-subscription dvd/hdd recorder available with ATSC tuner since 2006! Consumers in Europe and Asia deal with a very different set of circumstances: there is a standardized, multi-national, fully-susidized program guide which all generic recorders can tap into for compatability with off-air broadcasts. Satellite is a tightly-regulated niche product, quasi-commercial and quasi-nationalized, and again supported by a standardized free program guide signal (Guide+). There is no panoply of proprietary incompatible cable monopolies, there is no cable to speak of at all. These factors combine to make generic non-subscription DVD/HDD or HDD recorders much more convenient and attractive than they ever were in the USA. And of course Asia was HDTV-obsessed far in advance of the rest of the world, so a good market for expensive BluRay/HDD recorders exists there as well.

It isn't TiVO patents that drove independent recorders out of the USA market. It was consumer indifference, coupled with our crippling dependency on proprietary commercial cable/satellite services that have no incentive to cooperate with non-subscription devices. If cable and satellite vanished from USA, and we only had off-air broadcasts, consumers here would line up to buy generic recorders as much as any other country.

[usually_quiet]

Well said orsetto. I don't see TiVo's patents as a big obstacle, either. They are only a small one. Otherwise cable and satellite services would not have DVRs for rent.

The free internet TV guide services Titan TV and TV Guide.com are advertising supported, as is the current incarnation of TVGOS. They would expect advertising to be included in the guide and royalties from the manufacturer if a DVR was designed to use them.

The major commercial PC-based DVR software (BeyondTV, Sage TV, and Windows Media Center) provide private guide data for their US customers. They would not be happy with a set-top DVR that tapped into their services without paying.

The freeware PC-based DVR software often depends on the $20/year subscription based-service in the US these days. I know GB-PVR could use Titan TV and Microsoft's service in the past, but those options were not available in its new version, now called NPVR.

Finally, accurate cable TV guide data is not available from all internet sources for every community.

[victoriabears]

I lived in the UK and enjoyed British TV from 1958 to 2000.

Now living in Canada, I cannot stand the commercial interuptus, AND you have to pay to watch them.

I now download everything I can find that interests me for $100 a month I can download 350GB, and get to archive what I want.

If I were unable to do that and cable boxes work with external recording devices (I do not know if they do) I would buy one of the following, probably Pioneer as I had one and it was fabulous.

http://www.world-import.com/panasonic-dvd-r.htm

There are regular statements on this forum that you cannot buy dvd recorders with hard drives, sites like that above and doing a search finds many more, prove you can.

I know many users do not like worldwide versions, and I do not know why, granted the repair backup in 2-3 years time in the event of failure would be difficult.