How to detect the Field Order of your Avis

[SatStorm]

A great problem of our hobby, is the correct field order detection of our interlace analogue grabbs. It looks like there are no rules if the source is VHS/SVHS and there are some rules when the source is DVB/DVD.

You know the scenary: You encode your VHS/SVHS to CVD, SVCD or even DVD. It looks okey on your PC, but when you watch it on your standalone, a statering like FX may appear on some of your encodes and not to others. This statering makes those encodes unwatchable!
There are even situations which a field order change happens in the middle of a capture. Video with TBC fuction prevent this happen to a raw VHS/SVHS recording, but doesn't help to different recordings (different days or channels).

De-interlace ain't an option! Or, to put it better, it is not the correct option! If someone (like me) wants to keep the 100% of the source quality, then it has to be converted as is to mpeg 2. And that is always interlace.

TMPGenc supposed to detect it self the correct field order. Well, it is not working for me. It looks like is a feuture only for DV sources.

This post is here to gather technics and practical ways from all VCDhelp members, for this subject.

So the questions are:

- How you detect the correct field order from your analogue grabbs when you encode to CVD and SVCD?

- how you prevent the field order change during the grabb?

Starting first, I'll post my practical way to detect the correct field order:

First of all, I load my avi to tmpgenc and set Top field first (Field A) on the field order tab of TMPGenc's "advance" setting menu.
Then, I go to the de-interlace filter and I set it to none. Then I roll the bar of the preview in this menu, untill I found a scene change. You know, those specific frames which one field is the old scene and one is the next one.
Now, I set the filter to Even field and I notice the preview window. If the picture I see belongs to the frame before the scene change, I am ok. If it belongs to the frame of the next scene, then I have to go back and change the field order tab to "bottom field first (Field B).

That works for me, but it is not so practical if you have to encode more that 3 avis in the raw for example.... So I wonder, which other techniques are out there for this subject.

Anything for the subject would be positive and very welcome!

Thanks!
SatStorm

[troyvcd1]

I can not really understand your method. Do you go to the last frame of your avi before the scene change or the first frame of the new scene. How do you get the slider to go exactly on the last frame or the first frame.

[VidGuy]

Here's a much better and surer method:

In TMPGEnc, choose Even-Odd field Deinterlacing, then "play back" a piece of the video where there's action - if it looks OK, you've got the right field order. Otherwise, swap it.

If you have the wrong field order - you will see motion move backwards every two or three frames, and it's very obvious something is wrong....

[Lamont Cranston]

Adam posted a very simple method of checking field order of AVIs with TMPGEnc. http://www.vcdhelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=107662&highlight=field+order

Load your source in TMPGenc and in the advanced tab double click on the deinterlace filter and set the filter to even odd field (field.) Scroll through your movie and see if it looks ok. If it jumps back a few frames every second then your field order is incorrect. Switch it and check again.

If you put the cursor on the on the right arrow on the scroll bar, click and hold the left button, the image will jump if you have the wrong field order. It is very obvious.

[SatStorm]

Ooops...
I missed that from Adam. I was on vacations when he post that (and what vacation that was!)

This is far better way to detect the field order than the way I do it!
Thanks men!

But since we talking about it, are there any other ways also?

[troyvcd1]

WOW!!!! This is so simple and works good. And to think I have been screwing around with making bits and pieces of video to try to determine correct field order. I do have a couple of questions though.

I made a vcd using tmpgenc and made it to be 1:1VGA for computer viewing only. I made one vcd using B and one using A. Honestly I looked them over and I could not determine any difference. Is matching the correct field order only important for svcds.

Also I ran this test on a video I made in mediastudio. The original was unknown field order (probably B as it was taken from minidv). I chose to save the avi file with field order A in mediastudio as the output option. When I did this test in tmpgenc it came out field order B.

Also when I make a svcd in CCE using dvd2svcd with the avi otion I have to use field order A to make the correct video and this is obvious as the field order B video is shakey. The video avi file is field order B though. All my avi files are from a minidv so it is correct that they be field order B. I guess that this is not a problem so I just use field order A in dvd2svcd.

[mazinz]

THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU!!!!!!!!

i have been making stuff for years (vcd and now dvd for the past year or so). And i have never had a problem with field order till now. I kept trying to encode this one clip for dvd burning and when played it "stuttered" when their was movement. I unchecked this and checked that and could not figure it out as i had never had this problem before. i uninstalled a bunch of codecs recently and thought it was due to that.

i was going to post my problem till i read the one here and had a feeling this might be the real issue for me. Thanks to the VERY helpful replies i was able to see that my dilema was due to field order (was on field b should have been field A) and just saved my headache for day 3 of trying to figure it out. thanks again!!!

[alexruiz]

I am a little confused here. In TMPGEnc, the "advanced" tab under mpeg settings refer to the field order of the source, but also refers to the field order of the OUTPUT file..... doesn't it??? So that means that if I have "field B" my resulting MPEG will be field B, even if the source is field A.... Am I right???

If I am correct, I just need to make sure that the field in that tab is the same that the source.....

I tried using the method sugested to check field dominance (tmpgenc -> settings -> advanced -> deinterlace filter set to odd or even..... ) My source is DV type I, but I guess I need new glasses because both of them seemed fine..... Is this normal. By the way, I am using also Ulead VideoStudio (ver 5) which has the template for DV type I as "field order A"......

Thank you for the sugestions

[alexruiz]

FOLLOW UP:

I am more confused now...... If I open the DV with ulead, it says it is field A...... If I use the wizard in tmpgenc (2.53) it says it is field B....

I don't know if it really matters as I select "deinterlace" during the DV capture....

What am I doing wrong???

[vhelp]

alexruiz,
Don't confuse yourself. DV is always Field B (bottom first)

That's it.

And, if you are capturing form sources, ie TV, Cable, Attenna, Satalite,
or DV cam, always change to Filed A (Top) And, don't let the capturing
from DV fool you.

Only time Field B for DV, is if you are Transfering via Firewire to your HD.
When I say capturing from DV, I mean, using the A/V input/output plugs
connected to your capture card.

Based on my experiences w/ many capture cards, all of them are Field A,
when you encode in TMPG.

DVD ripping is another issue. People here have said that the final Field
order can be A or B. I can't say I've ever experienced this, but I do
recall doing Alien and had the studdering effect, way, way back when - when
I started messing around w/ some DVDs. I can't remember which TMPG
versoin I was using at that time w/ the Alien encode, and I can't remember
the Field order either. Oh well.

Anyways...

-vhelp

[troyvcd1]

What is meant when you say:

And, if you are capturing form sources, ie TV, Cable, Attenna, Satalite,
or DV cam, always change to Filed A (Top) And, don't let the capturing
from DV fool you

If I capture from a minidv I assume it will be field B. When I am done editing my avi should I save it as field A or B. When should I change it to field A (IN Tmpgenc???)

Still a little confused.

[vhelp]

What is meant when you say:

And, if you are capturing form sources, ie TV, Cable, Attenna, Satalite,
or DV cam, always change to Filed A (Top) And, don't let the capturing
from DV fool you

If I capture from a minidv I assume it will be field B. When I am done editing my avi should I save it as field A or B. When should I change it to field A (IN Tmpgenc???)

Still a little confused.

No, forget DV for a moment. Just think, "source".
ie, when you are capturing from Satalite or Cable, (sources) you are to
use Field A. So, when you capture (not firewire) from a DV cam, you
think source, like Satalite or Cable for example... and use Field A.
When I take some footage w/ my DV cam, ie my fishtank, fishe's swimming
around, and I record them to miniDV tapes, and I use the A/V outputs
of my DV cam, and connect them to my capture card, and capture the
footage, I will set to Field A, cause the CAM was not transfering from DV
cam to HD via firewire. Capture cards are set to Field A. At least in my
experience, However...,

IF your project is from a miniDV tape, from your DV cam, AND, you
are using FIREWIRE to transfer Home-Footage ie, family picnicks or parties,
THEN, will you need to use Field B in TMPG.

This has ben MY expeirence in ALL of my DV cam projects.
When I use my DV cam, you will often seen me refer to it as my mini TIVO.

Hope that clerified things a bit.
-vhlep

[vhelp]

SatStorm,

Use this rule of thumb:
* if Capture Card used, set Field A
* if firewire from DV CAM to HD used, set to Field B

That's it!!

troyvcd1,

For DV devices ie DV CAM:
-------------------------
When it's coming out of the DV CAM through the Firewire cord,
it's Field B, ...because of the circuitry and/or DV cam's internal softare
control.

When you Capture w/ a Capture card from the DV CAM using the
A/V output, it's Field A, ...because it bypassing the internals
that Firewire is set to, of the DV cam.

This is my experience. I've messed with this issue long ago, when
I first got my Canon ZR-10 DV CAM, moons ago.

-vhelp

[Lamont Cranston]

A couple of words of caution. If you find the need to change the field order from A to B, or B to A, it is not as simple as transcoding the file from A to B field, or using flip fields in VirtualDub or the compression codec. If you use one of these processes you will end up with a file with verticle jitter. To get rid of the jitter you will need to use the 'field delay' filter and VirtualDub. This may be known or obvious but some DVD players do not like Mpeg files that are encoded a field first.

PS Ulead has always called A field first what the rest of the world calls B field first.

[Megahurts]

Vhelp,
Are you using a NTSC or PAL DV Camcorder? I believe the fields are reversed between the two formats, but not sure. I have a Sony TRV140 NTSC camcorder and when I captue with firewire I have to choose field B first in TMPEG. When I capture through analog inputs using a Matrox G400 card I also have to use filed B first.

When in camera mode and outputing though firewire and viewing on a TV set, the field order is reversed. I suspect Sony DV camcorders output DV frames with reversed fields.

Do you or anyone else have any thoughts on this.

If you respond, tell us what format (NTSC or PAL) you're using, which DV Camcorder and which filed order in TMPEG you have to use.

Chas

[vhelp]

afternoon Megahurts,

I have an NTSC, Canon ZR-10 dv cam.

The ONLY time I use Field B in TMPG is when I output from Firewire
to my hard drive.

If I use Analog inputs, and Capture w/ ANY capture card, I
use Field A in TMPG.

DV cam are Interlaced, at least my NTSC version is. I've never seen a progressive
one though. I know they are made, but not w/ in consumer budgets

I don't know what other test you all need. Yes, I could be wrong. But, in
my experience, No. I'm correct at this time.

However, if any of you's need me to run a test, I'd be happy to abblige,
and if it turns out I'm wrong, no problem.

-vhelp

[SatStorm]

Hi to all.
VHelp, it isn't always field A....
If it was, our hobby would be much easier!

If you grabb from a bad VHS through a typical tuner card, you experience even a situation which the lost frames change the field order every little since.
TBC VCRs help a bit with that, but only to raw VCR recordings! It is like TBC stables the field order as first is, until the rec session ends. The next session of the tape, may be different!

My story now: For more that 3 months, I was transfering my 80s music videos from VHS to CVD and looked more than well on my PC . When I finished doing it, I burn them to DVD-Rs (about 45 videos on a disc that way! Very Cool!). Well, in my suprise, many of them was statering.
I felt like the stupiest newbie! Just imagine that I have done many transfers in the past to xSVCD format (and later full playable to DVD-Rs on my standalone), and much more from DVB to CVD/SVCD for more than 2 years with no probs at all!.
Some cursed me, I know it

Anyway, after that dissaster, I did a little digging in the subject, based on what I found on this forum and other ones.

Well it seems that expecially with win TV PCI cards (like the one I own), this field order issue is a reallity. I can confirm that there are even times, which when I load the avi file direct to TMPGenc, it is field B first and when I frameserve the same file with Vdub 1.11 to TMPGenc, it is field A!

Also, it seems that the field order affects more mjpeg codecs than Huffyuv! In my case at least! Unfortunatelly, I didn't use Huffyuv much on my transfers...

It is like what I use to say: The book says that analogue grabbs must be field A first. In praxis, it isn't always.
Never trust/follow blind book's specifications! Always test yourself first!
And burn some cd-rw to see if your resalts are correct.
I learn my lesson this time...

Just for the info, DVB transmissions in Europe are always field A first also and I never saw a R2 DVD with field B first.
And finally, that trick Adam posted in the past, how to detect the field order with tmpgenc, it looks like it is the best solution we have.

[vhelp]

Evening all.

satstorm,
hummmm, never heard or run into this issue before ...hmmm, maybe it's
a "region" this, ie, NTSC vs. PAL or something like that.

All I can say is that I have NEVER had any issues w/ Field order, except
for when I use the older versions, as they have mixed top w/ bottom, and
bottom w/ top (or, the name was incorrectly changed, leaving us to change
to the wrong Field) With the exception of this issue w/ older versions of
TMPG's, I've NEVER had Field issues.

satstorm,
I'm still confused by your argument on correct Field order. I know I have
it right in my situations w/ TMPG. The version I have ben using most these
days is v2.53 and still, no Field order issues.

I don't understand why you are having Field order issues. Are you PAL.
And, if so, then maybe this is the case for you and others here. All my
capture cards and DV cam, and VCR, etc. are NTSC.

Word on Interlace w/ DV cams - NTSC
---------------------------------------------
All DV cams (that I"m aware of) with respect to shooting footage w/ your
Lens, are pure Interlace. Not 3,2 or 2,3, BUT 1,1 (if I'm using the Interlace
numericle representation/tirm correctly)
Every field is Interlaced.
So, the next time you take footage through the lens of your DV cam, your footage
is Interlaced weather you use:
* Firewire it to your HardDrive, or
* Capture w/ a capture card through A/V inputs on the DV cam.

Field B - when to set to...
* when it's home-footage on miniDV tapes, from DV cam's lens and
.. transfered via Firewire

Field A - when to set to...
* pre-recorded to miniDV tapes, from sources like VHS, Satalite TV, DVD,
.. Cable
and an Analog Capture card is connected to DV cam's A/V inputs.


Other Influences of Field Orders:
---------------------------------
Analog or other type Capture Cards:
* Some Cards may be disigned w/ revised Field order
Codecs:
* What can influence a Field order is the settings in a given Codec, IF, and
I said IF the Codec provides any settings for Field order (PIC MJPEG has this feature)
Sources Materials:
* some examples are DVD, can be Hollywooded w/ reverse Field order
* DVD player (if capturing from) can also effect Field order
* VHS, Cable, Satalite, ...depending on what was on the source or TV station
was airing, the Field order can be reversed, but I've never
experienced this so far.
Regions and/or nonstandardness:
* NTSC vs. PAL, these two have differences that may or may not effect it.
I don't know how standard PAL is, but I do (through word or reading
here) that some Regions in PAL land screw w/ source specs

Solution or HOW TO find correct Field order, Effectively?
---------------------------------------------------------
* do TWO short 10 second encodes using Field A and Field B in your
.. encodes.
* burn to CDRW and play on your TV. If you see studder or movements
.. like hands start going forward, and hesitate back one step or frame,
.. than you NOW KNOW what Field order to choose.
The above is the most accurate method known, as to the other method,
well, it was already posted above.

Gosh, I hope this clears up any confusion w/ Field Order settings.

Well, I'm exhausted from this disscusion. So, I'm gonna stop here.
-vhelp

[Megahurts]

Vhelp, thanks for your reply. I see we both are NTSC and using Field B for TMPEG. However when playing a DV avi through Windows Media Player and viewing it on a TV, the field order is reversed.

Do your DV avi's play ok in WMP while viewing on a TV?

Chas

[vhelp]

Hello again.

Megahurts, and others,
I'm starting to wonder, when you talk about DV avi, what is your source ??

Example,
* Are you talking about taking Home-Videos of the family, though the DV camera lens,
* or, are you talking about using another DV device, like the ADC-100,
and running your VHS through it ??
* or, are you taking about first transfering VHS-to-DV (assuming your
DV cam) and then,

. . .encoding it in TMPG ??

What are your sources, actual DV footage from DV cam, or another DV
type device or something else ??

-vhelp

[downer]

This post has been very educating for me. I will throw in a couple questions, hopefully someone can answer:

I am using an advc-50 (basically same as 100) hooked to a firewire card and I have my VCR hooked into the RCA inputs of the advc-50.

I am wondering if I should be using Interlace or Non-Interlace??
I was wondering about the field order but I did that test and noticed Field B was the right one.

Also if there is that "vcr line" thingy on the bottom of the screen is there a filter to clean that up?

Thanks alot guys for the discussion. Very informative for a newbie!

[vhelp]

downer,

Are you NTSC or PAL ??

VCR lines:
----------
* tmpg
* Advance tab/[x]Clip frame, and adjust the "bottom" and "top" but raising the
black bar till it covers the lines. Don't worry about the video part.
* now, put a [x] in both boxes to your right.
* encode your video

I am wondering if I should be using Interlace or Non-Interlace??
I was wondering about the field order but I did that test and noticed Field B was the right one.

that depends on the source contents on your VHS tapes. If home-movies, from
previous transfer from camcorder to VHS, then yes, select Interlace.
If recorded TV show or movie, then again, yes, Interlace (assuming your
goal is for TV viewing)

-vhelp

[downer]

NTSC

[downer]

vhelp,

appreciate the response, but there is no crop in the advance tab. there is however a clip frame and i figured it out from there.

thanks again.

[SatStorm]

Hi,
Vhelp, it isn't a PAL/NTSC issue, it is a hardware issue!

In my case, I discover that Hauppauge Win TV primio FM, like many Hauppauge PCI entry products, have issues with the field order. They tried to fix that with new drivers, but it is still there...

The tip from Adam is the best solution to test the correct field order of any interlace avi. And it doesn't take time.

I never had that problem with asus 7700 GTS2 Deluxe card of my other computer. It was always field A for my analogue grabbings, as it supposed to be.

So it is simply a hardware issue. And because I never want to waste again 3 months of my life, I shall always check the field order from now on!

[DJRumpy]

As an alternative, you can use AVISynth to determine field order as well. Someone directed me to this site a long time ago (sorry to whoever it was... ). Check out the section on Classifying Hi Res. VERY useful.
It will help you to determine if your source is interlaced, telecined, and field dominance (order).
Useful if your capturing from VHS, or some odd media, and you dont' know what your working with.

www.lukesvideo.com

[lipwak]

Hi,

This is abit off-thread but I am hoping I can get some info.

I am using Apple products and EyeTV to capture and edit and burn to DVD content from a DirecTV DVR and VHS and am seeing some jitter (in close-ups and motion scenes) when those DVDs are played on TVs, not when they are played on the computer. I have posted about this on various boards and am wondering if field dominance is the problem.

Is there any way to figure this out?

My setup: EyeTV 250+ captures the video. I save them on an external Firewire drive as I do with the iMovie and iDVD project files. I convert the mpeg 2 files to .dv so I can bring them into iMovie. (They are proprietary EyeTV files as mpeg 2s and have to exported to something.) I edit them in iMovie. I use the Create iDVD button to export that to iDVD. I use the "Best Performance" encoding on iDVD since most of my projects are under an hour. I tend to burn to RW DVDs so I can erase them if I don't like the results.

I have been seeing jitter on some of the EyeTV-recorded content. I used an earlier capture program, USBVision with an XLR8 USB capture device and DID NOT see jitter with any DVDs I created with that. It is a very low resolution capture device though. EyeTV thinks it is a problem with iDVD. I think it is a problem with EyeTV. There are no settings for field order in EyeTV. There are in Toast so maybe I could use them. I'll try the quick test Vhelp suggested, 10 min of field A or top and 10 min of field B or bottom and see whichever works.

Does anyone know of a setting in any of these apps that would take care of this automatically? Or a more appropriate thread?

Many thank.

John L

[SatStorm]

What a blast from the past!
I hope my English are better today!

lipwak, Better do a new post for this you're asking!