Thinking of buying my first Mac soonish

[Nilfennasion]

The short part of the story, I am sick of PCs, I have a JVC GZ-HD7, and I want to get something that is capable of editing the footage I shoot into a video I can downconvert to SD-DVD to send to friends (or burn to Blu-Ray when the market for burners gets more reasonable).

I know very little about Macs. I have been told that since I am sick of Windoze but hate Linux even more, it is the option best-suited to my needs. I have already ruled out the Mac Pro because I do not have a budget of $4000 to work with (I am in Australia for those who need to know).

Aside from trying to set an absolute ceiling around $3000, I have no real criteria so long as it can import footage off my camera, edit it together, and make a disc. I am well aware there will be a learning curve, although I have been assured it is not as dramatic as is the case with Linux. The questions I need answered are:

* Which Mac will give me the best bang for the buck?

* Do I need Final Cut software to get the best results?

* How much do I have in terms of options for when BD writers become semi-affordable? In other words, if I want to add a writer to the machine at a later date, am I stuck or do I have choices?

Thanks in advance to anyone who can help me clear up the confusion in the matter.

[terryj]

In order:

#1. Any mac you can afford with a Dual Core processor
will be sufficient for your needs. Your greatest question
will be, do I want to be tied to a desk and do this at home,
or do I want to be flexible and portable?

Once you have answered that question the only thing to
make sure is you have the following:

* A Large HD in the Mac ( Desktops at least 250GB,
Desktops at least 120GB to 160 GB)
* A Lot of Ram ( 1 GB minimum) to keep the machine stable.
* Applecare ( trust me, wwtp)

If I woke up in your shoes, and had the $3000,
I would want something for the desktop, and would choose this:
Refurbed Imac 24 and spend the left over cash on doubling the Ram to 2GB,
buying an External 250GB to 500GB external FW drive for
backing up my projects/ extra storage, and for buying Applecare.
Don't let the word REFURBED fool you,
the cost savings are great, and you get a decent machine,
not a used piece of junk, that is still warrantied and can
be further warrantied with Applecare.

#2 Final Cut is great if you:
a. Are Technically inclined
b. got a lot of time to READ and are willing to LEARN
c. don't get frustrated easily.

I'm not gonna sugarcoat it...FCP/FCS will get you wonderful
results, and can make the most awesome of
Films/Home Movies/Etc you could ever hope for.
But it comes with a STEEP learning curve.
Ever use Maya or Lightwave on a PC?
Ever done CAD work on a PC?
That kind of learning curve is what I'm talking about.

If your a total novice, then using iLife with the Mac
(iMovie, iDVD) would be a good place to start,
and then once you have mastered those,
stepping up to FCP/FCS would be a breeze.
( trust me, this is what I did).

Or if you want really no frills simple in and out, you
could purchase Toast Titanium 8, which has many
features that many find adqueate for their needs.
I'm using TT8 now, and for the most part, it gets
stuff out very quickly with not much hassle,
when I just want it out and playing in the living room
within a couple of hours.

#3 As far as your options go, there will always be
external drives made to attach to your mac, and BD
writers will be no exception. So what ever way you go,
portable or desktop, yes there will be a way for you
to upgrade at a later date.

[jman98]

I work in IT for a living as a Unix System Admin. I understand why you hate Windoze. I do too. However, I want to give you something to think about. Macs drive me absolutely nuts. There is a lot that I really dislike about them. I'm gong to give you the bottom line on Macs.

They cost more than non-Apple PCs.
EVERYTHING you buy for the Mac in terms of parts will cost more too. I can't speak for the Intel variants, but typically Macs will only support certain hardware and you'll have fewer choices than for a PC.
There aren't as many software programs for Macs. Like it or not, it's a Windoze world, baby. If you want to do video work on a Mac, you may only have one or two programs to choose from. If you have problems with them, good luck.
It's just easier to do stuff in Windoze a lot of the time because there are more choices and more help available.

I have no idea whether you can do what you want on a Mac. You should be aware that you will have to rely on Mac video forums for help. All the time we see posts here on this forum where people talk about problems on Macs and we just shrug our shoulders and say that we have no idea what to do.

I have a Mac laptop (the last generation prior to Apple using Intel CPUs) and I really don't like it very much. Your mileage may vary. And do note that the OSX operating system is based on FreeBSD, which is a Unix variant. Macs are usable by people who don't know Unix very well, but if you don't like Linux because of some anti-Unix bias, going to Mac may not help you much. The way that software is installed on Macs, in my opinion, could be a lot better, but serious Mac users dislike it when I say that. I will warn you that if you try to do things on a Mac "in a Windows way" that you will get nowhere quick. One wise man once said "Forget what you learned in Windows and think about how you would do something if you didn't know anything about computers". This is helpful advice.

[RLT69]

EVERYTHING you buy for the Mac in terms of parts will cost more too. I can't speak for the Intel variants, but typically Macs will only support certain hardware and you'll have fewer choices than for a PC.

No not everything will cost more. Where on earth did you get that? Save the graphics card, which may not be true with pci-e variant macs, the hardware will cost the same:

Memory - Yes
Hard Drive - Yes
Optical - Yes.
Scanners - Yes
Printers - Yes

Unless you are talking about specialty items such as video capture cards, where you have more cheap alternatives in the Windows world, but they are cheap, there isn't an issue with hardware.

There are plenty of people in the video help forum that post about Mac issues. Not to mention there's the internet.

The big issue with Macs is price. But then again you probably don't have to upgrade you machine in five years or reformat your HD once a year to improve system performance.

[terryj]

@jman:

I have no idea whether you can do what you want on a Mac. You should be aware that you will have to rely on Mac video forums for help. All the time we see posts here on this forum where people talk about problems on Macs and we just shrug our shoulders and say that we have no idea what to do.

How about going to the Mac forums, and reading what what we do to help people here, and then you can be helpful back?

A mod moves the post to the forum and we answer it.

Instead of shrugging your shoulders, be helpful.
Instead of sitting on your duff and complaining,
read and learn something new and be useful
moreso than a sterotype.

Only those who are TRULY ignorant and have been
living in a cave do not know that around 1998 or so,
computer manufacturers decided to standardize on
computer parts, as it got to be too costly to engineer
for specifications for only certain types of common
peripheals. Thus, the door was opened and manufacturers
or RAM, Hard Drives, Optical Drives, Scanners, Printers,
Cameras, Digital Cameras, MICE, etc. started reaping the
benefits of being able to sell to ALL computer users.

@RLT69;

The big issue with Macs is price. But then again you probably don't have to upgrade you machine in five years or reformat your HD once a year to improve system performance.

too true. At best you may WANT to wipe and re-install
for a new OS Level, just to clean out the crap, but it isn't
part of the DEFAULT install just to get the OS to boot properly
( bash, bash).

[Nilfennasion]

Thanks, terryj, that helps clear up quite a lot for me and gives me a good idea where to go.

Oddly enough, my first experience with a computer capable of doing serious video work (not that I ever did serious video work with it) was a Commodore Amiga. There were, and still are, things about it that I wish I could go back to every time I fire up my present PC and the monitor decides to stop working as soon as Windoze boots (this is an intermittent fault, thankfully, or I would not be writing this message). Part of the reason I loved the Amiga was because it was not a PC, even if I have become very lazy/complacent due to using a PC in the intervening time (as of now, about 14 to 15 years).

As I should have said more clearly, my priority other than having a secure computer that does not need to be upgraded every time I come up with a new task for it is to make video. So I will take a collection of answers from here, go find a supplier, and see what happens from there. And thanks for clearing up the value of Applecare, too.

I am the type to get frustrated easily, having been born that way (I make a lot of videos on the subject of "being born that way" that are on YouTube). So I guess Final Cut is out. Thanks again for pointing out there are alternatives.

[RLT69]

@Nilfennasion

Oddly enough, my first experience with a computer capable of doing serious video work (not that I ever did serious video work with it) was a Commodore Amiga.

I fellow Amiga owner

Yes I too long for the days of the Amiga. Damn that was one fine machine. Never again will we see the like of that.


@terryj

oo true. At best you may WANT to wipe and re-install
for a new OS Level, just to clean out the crap, but it isn't
part of the DEFAULT install just to get the OS to boot properly

It's also the quickest way to remove all the trial-ware Dell installs on their computers

However, you can by a dell PC with Ubuntu pre-installed. Check it out if you like:

http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?c=us&cs=19&kc=6V440&l=en&oc=DDCWDAL&s=dhs

[Nilfennasion]

Indeed. The Amiga represents not only the last hurrah for computers from multiple vendors who will not talk to each other (and I sorely miss those days), it represented the end of hobbyist computing to a large extent.

Granted, I am still just a PC user with very little idea of how Macs work (or used to work), but I have to say this forum has been the most helpful source I have tried to date. And I have tried quite a few.

[Kryton]

I work in IT for a living as a Unix System Admin. I can't speak for the Intel variants, but typically Macs will only support certain hardware and you'll have fewer choices than for a PC.

I don't mean to sound harsh, but let's be honest here. If you can't speak for the intel variants then your post does not reflect reality for a potential new user. The transition to intel is over. Non-intel means the past.

You cannot buy PPC macs at stores so the picture you paint doesn't represent the present.

With the intel variants, all your software/hardware will run even if it means running it through Windows on a Mac. intel macs provide a great deal of flexibility. As the number of mac users sky-rockets so does the amount of support for hardware devices.

As hardware gets standardised, often no third party drivers are necessary as the system will do all the work.

[dnix71]

The new Intel Macs have the unique advantage of allowing (legally, anyway) a dual boot OSX and XP. So you don't have to give up Windows while you are learning the Mac.

I know someone who has a Dell laptop dual booting Vista Home Premium and Tiger, but that's a story for another day.

[lordsmurf]

Apple hardware DOES cost more, I was in this situation 8 months ago. Laptops will cost about double of a good Windows-based laptop (HP, for example), and the Mac will have lower specs.

On desktops, it's not quite that bad, but you're still looking at a 1.5x cost difference.

If you're a DV shooter, then a Mac is fine. There's really nothing you can't already do on a Windows system, but FCP and DVDSP are great software.

If you want to do all kinds of video tasks, you're in for a surprise if you think you can do everything on a Mac that you can do in Windows. There are many tasks that home users will want that are not really all that possible, or not as good a method, or not as easy. Editing discs from DVD recorders, capturing, PVR, conversion, etc ... will either be much more expensive (payware only), not possible (no software), or much harder.

I know of nothing that is actually easier on a Mac, it's just different. For a small movie producer, a Mac provide a nice workflow, but that's really about it.

Bootcamp, the program that lets you run Windows XP (and maybe Vista) on Mac-specific hardware, doesn't run as good as it would if it were a native OS on truly generic hardware (Mac still has some degree of "special" even though it uses so-called "generic" hardware not).

All the Mac fanboys like to argue and bitch and moan when I tell the truth, but I've been using both platforms equally in my media career for about 15 years now. It's gotten to where more and more places have shed the Macs, and where I am now Macs are almost completely gone from the daily workflow (relegated to occasional use only, as it doesn't do what we need).

If you want to switch to Mac, great, just be sure you know what the costs are, and what it can and cannot do (or cannot do cheaply or easily).

It's not like picking a Chevy or a Ford, but more like picking a electric-engine car or a Diesel truck (buy the one that does what you want).

[terryj]

smurfy,......

we're gonna have to disagree on this one again muy amigo.

If you want to do all kinds of video tasks, you're in for a surprise if you think you can do everything on a Mac that you can do in Windows. There are many tasks that home users will want that are not really all that possible, or not as good a method, or not as easy. Editing discs from DVD recorders, capturing, PVR, conversion, etc ... will either be much more expensive (payware only), not possible (no software), or much harder.

By the numbers:

#1. Editing discs from DVD recorders

Can be done using the same software available for the PC, MPEGStreamclip.
My disc is finalized from the recorder, usuing DVD-RW discs, I insert in the mac,
load up MpegStreamclip, edit the VOB, do what I will save it as mpeg-2 to build
and burn in DVDSP.
(PixelVRF is another alternative)

#2 Capturing

I assume you mean capturing in video from a Digital Camera, Digital Recorder, or
a VCR? Same as on a PC, some type of capture card/box must be the go
between for analog to DV conversion, unless the source in question has FW I/O.
Last I looked, a Canopus ADVC-100/110 worked for both PC or Mac.
And capturing can be done in Quicktime ( native), iMovie ( default install), or FCP ( pay).

#3 PVR

Toast 8 with Tivo option, ElGato's eyehome, The Plextor ConvertX PVR.....
Sure they cost, but can be done and set up in a few clicks.

#4 conversion

???????
We have Codecs. We Have Perian. We have DIVX. We Have Flip4Mac.
all free. Install in QT Lib folder, use a QT based app to convert.

You can use iMovie if you don't want to pay for QT Pro.
as long as the codecs are in the QT lib folder, they will
convert the files, in v. 5 and up of iMovie.

You want MPEG-2 conversion? Pay for the $20 codec, to do so,
and use QT PRo or MPEGStreamclip or SimpleMovieX,
or pay $15 and use ffmpegx ( which is the same price on a PC).

You want heavier lifting you can buy Compressor, or Soreson Squeeze,
and(Soreson) cost the same on a PC.

I don't understand your posting on this last one......

In general all the things I mentioned, I also included the same costs
on the PC. Unless your advocating the use of bootleg/pirated software,
all decent shareware used by the majority of PC and Mac users costs
something, and perhaps its only harder because our commands/tools
are slightly different, but not possible?

Everything I wanted to do, I was able to do with my Mac in some shape or form.
2294 posts and counting ( give or take 30%) says I did.