Panasonic DMR-ES10: Picture breaking up

[mikefox]

Too often now I am experiencing the picture breaking up on
several of my RAM Disks during intervals of playback. For
example the previous recording will show through.

Could this be a problem with the recorder or of the disks
(both only about 4 months old) ?

By the way I always use LP and I notice in the Panasonic
Tips and Tricks that this is not recommended, however I
assume that this is just for reasons of better picture
quality not for the picture actually being distorted or
breaking up. Would that be correct ?

Mike

[trhouse]

By breaking up do you mean as in the image below in the areas circled in red? If yes, that is macroblocking. It is the result of the low bitrate used in LP mode. I pulled the image from another thread which was a discussion about a different brand of recorder but it was a good example of macroblocking in a fast action scene.

[FulciLives]

I've never used DVD-RAM discs but I know that DVD-RW discs can be ERASED using a QUICK method or using a FULL method.

If this is the same for DVD-RAM then I suggest doing the FULL method ... perhaps you have been doing the QUICK method instead and it is not working 100% ???

Something to consider.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[lordsmurf]

What Fulci said. File system on the RAM disc sounds corrupt.

[mikefox]

By breaking up do you mean as in the image
below in the areas circled in red? If yes, that is
macroblocking.

No - much worse.

Also the sound will go funny.

Plus the picture will freeze for a few seconds (the time
display will also stop) and then resume. This will happen
many times.

If this is the same for DVD-RAM then I suggest doing the FULL method ... perhaps
you have been doing the QUICK method instead and it is not working 100% ???

Do you mean ERASE of a particular program - which is what I always do
or REFORMAT of a disc (which I don't do) ?

Mike

[FulciLives]

By breaking up do you mean as in the image
below in the areas circled in red? If yes, that is
macroblocking.

No - much worse.

Also the sound will go funny.

Plus the picture will freeze for a few seconds (the time
display will also stop) and then resume. This will happen
many times.

If this is the same for DVD-RAM then I suggest doing the FULL method ... perhaps
you have been doing the QUICK method instead and it is not working 100% ???

Do you mean ERASE of a particular program - which is what I always do
or REFORMAT of a disc (which I don't do) ?

Mike

I mean do a total REFORMAT of the disc after each recording.

That is what I do with DVD-RW discs. I record something onto a DVD-RW using my stand alone DVD recorder. I take the DVD-RW to my computer and RIP it to the computer so I can re-author it so that I can get full control of the authoring process.

Before I reuse the DVD-RW in the stand alone DVD recorder I do a FULL ERASE instead of a QUICK ERASE. In this instance the FULL ERASE totally wipes the disc "clean" as if it was a totaly brand new empty disc. I guess that would be what you call REFORMAT for the DVD-RAM format.

So yes you should REFORMAT your DVD-RAM after you are done with a recording.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[trhouse]

The ES10 has no quick or full erase. It has "delete title" for removing individual titles or it has format.

The only time I have used format is if the dvd-ram was used on the computer which formats the dvd-ram differently. Is it possible that the disk was used in a device which placed an almost compatible format on it? I would reformat and try again. If that does not work, I would use freeware DvdInfoPro to test the disk.

[lordsmurf]

DVD recorders only do quick format or they delete the content table and show a space as available for re-use. This can lead to corrupt files, as we have here. It's really that simple.

Full format the disc on a computer. Make it virgin again.

[KTH]

I agree with what FulciLives & Lordsmurf are telling you to do. Also you failed to mention the brand of media you are using. If you can give us a media code that could help as well. I've had some bad DVD-RAM media before. Usually it's brands like K-Hypermedia. Once I purchased 5 of this brand and two were DOA. I could not even get them to work. The last three lasted about two to three months. This is extremely bad considering this type of media is supposed to last a 100,000 cycles and I probably only recorded on each one about thirty times or less. Brands that I have tried and found to be reliable are the Panasonic & Maxell (Not a single disc went bad yet), but I heard that Optorite works well also.

[mikefox]

Thanks for all your help guys.

Let me summarize and add a little more explanation.

1. I'm only using DVDs with my TV (not for any
computer use)

2. Using previous advice from the forum I am now
using Panasonics own DVD-RAM discs.

3. Also, in case this affects the discussion, I'll point out
that I have 2 identical DMR-ES10 recorders and tend to
swop disks around as regards recording and playing.

There has been an occasion when a disc played fine
on one but there was picture break up on the other.

4. I always ERASE programs, the only time I've done
a reformat is after there has been picture corruption.

5. I always use LP mode.


Mike

[handyguy]

When that happened to me I just got new DVD-RAM disks.

Works perfectly.

I usually get about 20 months from a disk with daily use of about 10x.

Try another disk.

[mikefox]

When that happened to me I just got new DVD-RAM disks.

Works perfectly.

I usually get about 20 months from a disk with daily use of about 10x.

Try another disk.

As I mentioned at the start the problems have occurred early
on with quite a number of disks so I don't think it's simple
wear and tear.


Mike

[tomwil]

The ES10 has no quick or full erase.

On Page 30 of the Panasonic DMR-ES10 owners manual, it tells you how to format the DVD-RAM disc. It would probably be better to format these discs on the DMR-ES10 rather than on a computer, because of the possibility of different format specs.

dvdramformat.jpg

[lordsmurf]

I would not use DVD-RAM, stupid VR mode, I would go VIDEO mode on a DVD-RW or DVD-R on a Panasonic. LP mode on Panasonic is pretty dismal quality, yes, lots of blocks and noise.

Formatting a disc is the same on computer or whever, to make it virgin. But after the disc is virgin, the DVD recorder will always add data to the disc, to make it ready for use. So it does not matter where you format the media.

[trhouse]

Lordsmurf,

I suspect you know this but perhaps others do not. Windows XP computers can only format a dvd-ram disk with FAT32 format which is not compatible with dvd recorders. It requires additional software such as Sonic DLA ( drive letter access ) or Nero InCD to format in UDF2.0 which is what most recorders including the ES10 will recognize.

That said, a computer full format in UDF2 could help, but what is causing this problem seems undetermined. I have an ES10 and a borrowed ES30V and a borrowed ES35V and in testing, swap the same dvd-ram disks back and forth between all of these with no ill effect.

mikefox,

Are you doing any erasing of the titles on the dvd-ram disk using the computer instead of the recorder or are you recording content protected material?

Microsoft reports there have been cases where format does not work after software was used to erase titles on dvd-ram. They recommend a service pack to solve the problem.

As you are in the UK, this has been reported.

Sky Box office (PPV) has been macrovision protected for several years but the rest of the channels have not.

[mikefox]

mikefox,

Are you doing any erasing of the titles on the dvd-ram disk using the computer instead of the recorder or are you recording content protected material?

No - I don't use my computer at all.

I am simply recording and playing back TV programs.

Mike

[FulciLives]

This is getting pointless and silly now.

Can you PLEASE reformat the DVD-RAM disc ... make a new recording ... then report if it is OK or NOT.

Otherwise you keep harping about your issue over and over but aren't doing anything.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[mikefox]

John,

This is getting pointless and silly now.

Can you PLEASE reformat the DVD-RAM disc ... make a new recording ... then report if it is OK or NOT.

Otherwise you keep harping about your issue over and over but aren't doing anything.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

John,

The suggestion to reformat was not clear because you talked
about QUICK and FULL reformats - which I don't have - and
others started answering and asking morce questions.

(And also I have not been 'harping on' but answering
questions about whether I use a computer and which disks and
trying to provide any other relevant information).

To answer your question, I have run a reformat, made a new
recording and it FAILS. i.e at one point the picture halts
then it breaks up etc but later carries on.

Mike

[trhouse]

Have you tried recording the same TV material directly to a good quality dvd-r or +r? These disks are preformatted. If you get the same result, then it is not the format or disk.

[mikefox]

Have you tried recording the same TV
material directly to a good quality dvd-r or +r? These disks
are preformatted. If you get the same result, then it is not
the format or disk.

I have not tried. (I don't have a need for keeping programs,
I just record, watch them within a few days, then erase)

Mike

[bmwracer]

Hey guys, I've had somewhat similar problems with the DVD-RAM discs: https://forum.videohelp.com/viewtopic.php?t=297649

Or is it the Panny?

[FulciLives]

Well the problem is either with the DVD-RAM or with the Panny unit itself.

You have done a complete reformat and recorded something and still have trouble.

The only way I can imagine checking to see if it is the machine instead of the media (the DVD-RAM disc) is to buy at least one brand new DVD-RAM disc and try it and see what happens. If you still have problems and you are using a quality brand of DVD-RAM then it must be the recorder but if the new DVD-RAM works then that might indicate it was just a "bad" DVD-RAM disc (the old one that is giving you trouble now).

Unfortunately you said that you had more than one DVD-RAM giving you trouble. This would seem to appear to be the fault of the machine as how can several different DVD-RAM discs go "bad" so quickly? Hower it could be that you got a bad batch (especially if they came in a single package) or that the brand/make of DVD-RAM discs (of the kind you have) are just not very compatable with the Panny unit.

So I think the best you can do at the moment is what I said above ... buy one brand new DVD-RAM disc of "high" quality. Maybe ask other Panny users what brand works well for them etc. but the idea is to buy the one that most consider "the best" so if you have further issues you can then pretty much rule out the media being the problem and know that something is wrong with the unit itself.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[bmwracer]

Well the problem is either with the DVD-RAM or with the Panny unit itself.

You have done a complete reformat and recorded something and still have trouble.

Yeah, I always format the disc once I'm done with it and want to make a new recording... However, one of the other threads (I can't remember which) said that constantly formatting the disc was bad and that erasing was better.

Why? I haven't figured that one out yet, so I'm taking that advice with a grain of salt.

The only way I can imagine checking to see if it is the machine instead of the media (the DVD-RAM disc) is to buy at least one brand new DVD-RAM disc and try it and see what happens. If you still have problems and you are using a quality brand of DVD-RAM then it must be the recorder but if the new DVD-RAM works then that might indicate it was just a "bad" DVD-RAM disc (the old one that is giving you trouble now).

Unfortunately you said that you had more than one DVD-RAM giving you trouble. This would seem to appear to be the fault of the machine as how can several different DVD-RAM discs go "bad" so quickly? Hower it could be that you got a bad batch (especially if they came in a single package) or that the brand/make of DVD-RAM discs (of the kind you have) are just not very compatable with the Panny unit.

I'm using Panasonic brand DVD-RAM discs so I can't imagine why they Panny would have problems with it, but it could be a bad batch as you say.

I'd say that I've recorded and formatted the discs less than 30 or so times, so I can't imagine them going bad, though I didn't have this problem several months ago... Hmm.

So I think the best you can do at the moment is what I said above ... buy one brand new DVD-RAM disc of "high" quality. Maybe ask other Panny users what brand works well for them etc. but the idea is to buy the one that most consider "the best" so if you have further issues you can then pretty much rule out the media being the problem and know that something is wrong with the unit itself.

I guess I could try another name brand, though you'd think the Panasonic discs would "work best" with the Panasonic recorder, if that's possible.

If it is the recorder, I guess it'll give lordsmurf more fuel to rip the Panny, huh? *wink*

Thanks for your reply.

[mikefox]

Unfortunately you said that you had more than one DVD-RAM giving you trouble.

John,

Yes indeed. If it was just the one I would not have even
raised the issue but the problem has now extended to about 7
disks across several batches. Which I guess is pointing to
the Panny unit.

However to confuse matters, as I mentioned earlier, I've got
two identical models and I tend to interchange i.e record on
one, play on another. So I can't be sure on which unit(s)
the problems occurred

So I think the best action as you say is to get some brand
new DVD-RAMs - and allocate them to a specific unit, so
that I can nail down the problem.

Thanks
Mike

[trhouse]

A good quality dvd-ram is about $2 here and a good quality dvd-r is about $0.25. For $0.25 you will know if it is media or not.

Here are a few suggestions that cost nothing. Change the source. Do you still have the problem?

The ES10 has passthough capability. Mine is setup so the monitor can see the original signal or the encoded signal. Does the encoded signal already have the distortion before it gets recorded?

[mikefox]

Change the source. Do you still have the problem?

The ES10 has passthough capability. Mine is setup so the monitor can see the original signal or the encoded signal. Does the encoded signal already have the distortion before it gets recorded?

Sorry - you've lost me on these two suggestions.

Mike

[trhouse]

These suggestions are part of the process of elimination. Change the source means to record another video source such as a VCR or even your other ES10's output. If the problem remains, then the source of the video is not causing the problem.

The test of the passthrough signal eliminates the input processing of the ES10. This test requires your TV to be able to accept a composite or component signal. It will show either the processed signal already has the distortion or not. If these outputs have the distortion and you have eliminated the source as the culprit, it points to the ES10. In the former post I should have referred to the passthough signal not the encoded signal.

I have an LCD TV set up so I can view either the VCR composite output or the ES10 composite output. That way I can see how the recorder handles bad video. One of the most unusual characteristics of the ES10 is that it can take video that is rolling at the VCR output but it does not roll after it is processed by the ES10 input circuits. My test video lately has been a tape that rolls vertically seven times at the output of the VCR but the output of the ES10 does not roll at all. Instead a semi-transparent horizontal line moves slowly up the screen.

[mikefox]

These suggestions are part of the process
of elimination. Change the source means to record another
video source such as a VCR or even your other ES10's output.
If the problem remains, then the source of the video is not
causing the problem.

The test of the passthrough signal eliminates the input
processing of the ES10. This test requires your TV to be
able to accept a composite or component signal. It will show
either the processed signal already has the distortion or
not. If these outputs have the distortion and you have
eliminated the source as the culprit, it points to the ES10.
In the former post I should have referred to the passthough
signal not the encoded signal.

I have an LCD TV set up so I can view either the VCR
composite output or the ES10 composite output. That way I
can see how the recorder handles bad video. One of the most
unusual characteristics of the ES10 is that it can take
video that is rolling at the VCR output but it does not roll
after it is processed by the ES10 input circuits. My test
video lately has been a tape that rolls vertically seven
times at the output of the VCR but the output of the ES10
does not roll at all. Instead a semi-transparent horizontal
line moves slowly up the screen.

Heck that's still much too complicated for me to follow
- though thank you for trying.

I may be honing in on the fact that one unit is faulty.

I tried to reformat a disc, it said it would take 7 minutes
(rather long ?) and before the end it crashed out.

I then tried on the other unit, it said it would take 2 minutes
and it worked fine.

Mike

[Marvingj]

The process of elimination that Trhouse mention will definitely work, But I think your unit is defective. DVD-RAM shouldn't be that difficult.

[handyguy]

No, it shouldn't. You could also play that disk on your computer & see if it works right.