VHS preservation; could we drag this topic through the mud one more time?

[gasman2]

I have read and researched this topic to death, really I have, and I still don't know what to do!

My problem is the last 20 years of my life on a collection of aging VHS, S-VHS and hi-8 tapes recorded with lousy light and a shaky hand on subject material ranging from the brownie troop fundraiser to grandma's 98th birthday. Boring to anyone else, this is academy award material to me. I want to preserve these memories for future generations, am willing to spend in both $$ and time to do the best job possible, and have no earthly idea how! My personal M.O. is to overthink such projects and do much more than is appropriate. I want to obtain the highest quality result with a reasonable investment. You know, follow the 80/20 rule.

So what do I know: Unfortunately only one thing, that you need a great VCR to handle these tapes. I have bought a Panny AG-1980 which should do an adequate job.

The rest is a sea of questions:
1. What is the best way to accomplish the A to D conversion? It would appear to me that this is most easily accomplished outside of my computer and then the digitized video loaded into the computer as an AVI file via firewire. I do not currently have a mini-DV camcorder. Should I buy one that will accomplish the A-D or should I buy a canopus ADVC300 to perform the task? What does the canopus bring that the camcorder will not?
2. What editing software is best to improve the images? How much can I really expect for the work involved?
3. What is the best way to store the digital files. From my reading it makes a lot of sense to keep the master copy uncompressed.
4. What is the best DVD authoring software to use? I would like to set the dvd up with chapters, but nothing too fancy.

I thank all you smart and experienced individuals in advance for any help you provide.

[redwudz]

Our Restoration Forum would be a better place for your questions. Moving you.

I use a ADVC-100 for VHS to DV conversions. With it, the results are the same as a camcorder with passthrough, as far as I can tell. I think the ADVC-300 has a few more settings, which might be of use, compared to the 100 or a camcorder.

DV is a great format for editing as every frame is a keyframe, so frame accurate editing is standard. Xvid, in comparison, has a keyframe every 300 frames by default. No fun to edit at all. DV also has locked audio-video sync and a framesize that is already DVD compliant.

I use VirtualDub Mod for my DV editing. Just add a DV codec like the Panasonic DV Codec to be able to use the DV with VDM.

DV tape is the best way to save the edited DV for no quality loss archiving.

For authoring to DVD, I use TMPGEnc DVD Author because it's easy to use. If you want more advanced features, DVD Lab (Pro) would be one program to look at. For freeware, GUI for dvdauthor works well.

My method: Transfer the DV to the computer with WinDV, Type 2. Edit and filter, if needed, in VirtualDub Mod. Save out the edited audio as a WAV and encode that to AC3 audio. Encode the video only to DVD compliant MPEG-2. I use TMPGEnc Plus, but most encoders will work as well and probably a little faster. Finally, I author with TDA, adding the MPEG-2 and the AC3 audio, create the menus, etc., and burn.

And I forgot to add that VirtualDub has more than a hundred filters available so you should find some that will fit just about any situation. Very handy for messed up VHS tapes. Some filters here: http://neuron2.net/

And you might want to visit lordsmurf's site for some good restoration information: http://www.digitalfaq.com/dvdguides/restoration/video/intro.htm

[FulciLives]

I would buy a stand alone DVD recorder.

Record everything at the 1 hour recording mode for best quality and use a format like DVD-RW so that you can use it over and over again because once it is recorded you are going to:

Import this to your computer and edit with either MPEG-VCR or VideoRedo Plus.

Then use a DVD authoring program (I suggest TMPGEnc DVD Author) to create a custom menu with custom chapters etc.

Burn it all to a DVD-R using ImgBurn and quality DVD-R media such as Taiyo Yuden or Verbatim.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

P.S.
If you want to get very fancy with the editing and laying down of titles or special effects then the way redwudz suggested is the better way to go. Forget the Canopus ADVC-300 and just go with the Canopus ADVC-110

Also you might want to consider getting a stand alone Full Frame TBC no matter how you will be doing the analog-to-digital conversion.

[Soopafresh]

On the software enhancement end, check out the Avisynth plugin called HdrAgc which works amazingly well at brightening underexposed footage.

Example: http://users.pandora.be/ho-slotcars/HDR/HDR_Doom_021.jpg

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=93571

[slacker]

Since you specified "academy award material" and "preservation for future generations", here is what I did given the same circumstances...

I purchased
the best VHS player I could find
(to output the best audio and video signal)

and hooked it up to
the best svideo and/or composite cables I could find
(to elminiate any potential quality or noise issues)

and connected those into
a Canon camcorder capable of analog to digital passthru
(to convert the signal and pass it on to the PC as well as
to allow for printing back to miniDV tape for the most reliable quality archive)

and connected that to
the best Firewire cable I could fine
(again, to ensure the cleanest signal)

and plugged that into
a PC with a quality dvd burner and a 300gb external hard drive
(for dv storage, dv editing and dvd burning)

I installed
Sony Vegas+DVD Architect on the PC
(for the highest quality video capture and editing, audio restoration and dvd authoring)

And went to work converting 100+ hours of 20 year old and newer VHS and Hi-8 material to both miniDV tape for long term archive storage and dvd format for viewing by family members today. Worked out great and have been extremely pleased with the results.

Total cost, approximately $1500.

[gasman2]

Thanks for all the input. This is the most informative forum I have ever used. Since I am such a neophyte, I am going to break down the steps necessary into "bites" that I can swallow.

#1 I have a Panasonic AG-1980 which has full frame TBC. From all my research on this site this is highly rated for my application. What additional benefit will a full frame stand alone TBC bring over the Panny as Fulcilives suggests?

#2 I like the approach that Slacker suggests using a camcorder to perform the A-D conversion. Since I don't have a mini DV camcorder this makes financial sense as well. A couple of questions. What additional benefit would a Canopus product bring to the A-D conversion? Also, what is the best camcorder to buy for this purpose which will also function well as a quality camera?

#3 As to my computer requirements, I have a fast P4 gamer with 2GB Ram, 200GB of free HD space, and a Sony DRU-810A DVD burner. Is it necessary to add an external HDD? I am assuming that I would capture, edit, burn and archive back to the camcorder one tape at a time. Later, if I wanted to make compilations of a specific series of events (i.e. all of one daughter's birthday parties), I could get each event from the DVD it is located on and copy it back to the hard drive for authoring.

Answers to these questions should get me up to the more challenging part (for me) of learning how to edit the DV. As Lordsmurf clearly states in his excellent treatise on restoration, it is a lot of work. I am willing to give it my best effort.

Thanks to all
Scott

[pijetro]

gasman2, you're on the right track...
#1 The Panasonic 1980p has a Full frame TBC, unlike its' predecessor, the 1970, which was a field TBC...
Fulcilives is correct, but your SVHS is sufficient IMHO...
The only thing i would add is a Colour corrector..Even a reasonably priced ProcAmp Sima Model Pro series SCC should get you added brightness, sharpnesss, and contrast..There's a neat bypass option to boot...
But to be honest, the 1980P does such a nice job in colour correction, i find the that only finite tuning is necessary..

#2 I personally use a dedicated box for A-D transfers..Both camera and Canopus do the required task, but if you're going to do lots of transferring, get a dedicated box..Some advanced editors recognize this as a breakout point..Great for people with NTSC monitors, who want to observe their creation in finer detail..

#3 Computer is fine..I'd get more HDD space..More importantly, have it configured correctly. O.S. on one drive, capture on a second, and scratch disk on third..(where your renders and audio effects go)..
Everybody's backup situation is unique...
Make up your mind on the projected timespan for the project, and how much space will be required..
Yes, you can back up to MiniDV tape for 1:1 copies for starters (to have a master)..Or transfer to a an external H.D.D. and store away for later use.

or


You can edit the timeline, and export back to MiniDV for only material you want to keep..(this would be another set of backups for finalized stuff)

One way or the other, i'd hate capture the same tapes twice..
I just finished transferrin 15+ MiniDV tapes..It was nice to have immediate HDD space to put all of the Bday parties on a single DVD, all of the weddings on another, etc...
Working with advanced editors allows for this workflow to happen. You can create projects according to your needs...

Good luck!!!

[oldandinthe way]

I'd also recommend an external HDD for backup as well as writing on DVD.

[FulciLives]

Some people have run into problems if they capture to an external HDD. I think you are better off with a 2nd internal HDD. Then do all your captures to the 2nd internal HDD instead of your main C: drive.

If you want to use an external HDD then I would make sure you have plenty of room on the internal for capturing. Do you capture to the internal main C: drive.

After the capture you can then copy the file over to the external HDD for processing further.

The benefit of the Canopus ADVC-100 is that it is adjustable for 7.5 IRE BLACK or 0.0 IRE BLACK and using a digital camcorder for capture you are stuck with 0.0 IRE BLACK. Trust me when I say you need 7.5 IRE BLACK input ability.

Also the Canopus ADVC-110 has inputs and outputs. If you are using a program on the computer to do editing and other things like adjusting picture properties (color saturation, brightness, contrast, etc.) then you can use the outputs of the Canopus ADVC-110 so that you can see what it all looks like on a regular TV. Keep a TV (even if you have to buy a nice 13"/14" TV) near the computer or this use. Video looks very different on a computer monitor than on a TV so you really can't rely on the computer monitor for making picture adjustments like color saturation and brightness etc.

However I'm not sure if all program support the "preview outputs to TV" and you have to have the TV properly adjusted for it all to work. I know VEGAS can do this and I'm sure other advanced editing programs can as well (such as Adobe Premiere).

As for the Panny VCR you have ... from all accounts it is a very nice VCR ... easily one of the best. It has a TBC built-in but my understanding is that it is only a "Line TBC" and not a "Full Frame TBC" so ... it may be "enough" and it "may not". Probably the only way to know for sure is to try it with an external Full Frame TBC and see what happens. Maybe someone with the Panny and an external Full Frame TBC can comment.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[pepegot1]

I would use a stand alone DVD recorder. JVC DR-10S or 100 does a great job and improves the video quality at the same time. Where you can get one is another thing. Then, rip with DVD Shrink(or other) and edit with VideoRedo. Then, burn with your favorite software, I use TDA to do that.
Excellent results!!!

[davideck]

I am partial to real time MPEG encoding. Whether it be my DVD Recorder or my Hauppauge PVR-250, real time encoding saves a lot of time (and disk space) while still providing excellent results. It makes the whole process of preserving tapes on DVD more enjoyable for me.

I would like to set the dvd up with chapters, but nothing too fancy.

For basic capturing, editing and authoring, I find it hard to beat the flexibility of a DVD Recorder with a built in HDD. https://forum.videohelp.com/viewtopic.php?p=1585296#1585296

For example;

Later, if I wanted to make compilations of a specific series of events (i.e. all of one daughter's birthday parties), I could get each event from the DVD it is located on and copy it back to the hard drive for authoring.

My Toshiba HDD/DVD Recorder can assemble chapters from different captures together into a playlist which can then be authored and burned to DVD. This provides a quick and efficient way of making compilation DVDs.

The Toshibas also have proc amp controls and excellent TBC performance which could improve your Hi8 captures.

[deuce8pro]

Whats the difference in line tbc compared to full frame tbc? You mean they misadvertised *pretended shocked face*

Question to the experts:
Do you REALLY seriously need an external tbc after using a machine like the ag-1980. I would think that it could correct most problems with tapes unless they are truely bad and those wouldnt be worth working with anyway.

or

would you not need an external tbc with a professional unit like the ag-7650? Interested in other peoples opinions. thanks.

[deuce8pro]

Oh and btw, someone wanted to transfer hi8 tapes.
Just look on ebay for a digital 8mm sony camera.
A lot of the models from a year or two ago and longer have
time based correction and digital noise reduction (not current ones).
They are not very expensive on ebay and most have a firewire to connect to your pc or a standalone unit.
That would be the more ideal way of transferring your hi8 tapes.
Better then even using the hi8 cam you used to film them in.

[davideck]

Do you REALLY seriously need an external tbc after using a machine like the ag-1980. I would think that it could correct most problems with tapes unless they are truely bad and those wouldnt be worth working with anyway.

Not all TBCs provide Frame Synchronization. Frame Synchronization and Timebase Correction are independent functions. A Frame Synchronizer prevents any disturbances in its video input from causing any sync discontinuities at its video output. Discontinuous sync can cause audio/video skew and other capture related issues.

External Full Frame TBCs provide Frame Synchronization. They also provide MV elimination.
DVD Recorders provide Frame Synchronization but do not provide MV elimination.

The JVC TBC/DNR VCRs do not provide Frame Synchronization. I suspect that the Full Frame TBC in the AG-1980 does, but I do not have access to one to confirm this.

[slacker]

Some camcorders such as the Canon Optura 500 and the Canon Elura 100 both have built-in TBC capability as well. My conversions using the Optura 500 were "bullet proof".

[davideck]

Yep. My JVC GR-DVL915 MiniDV Camcorder is the best TBC that I own. It provides timebase correction performance that is as good as my JVC TBC/DNR VCRs and it does so without softening the image or introducing any DNR artifacts. A great way to go for 1394 captures.

[deuce8pro]

Maybe someone can explain this please. Whats the difference with a line tbc as opposed to a full frame tbc (with the ag-1980)?

[gshelley61]

A line TBC buffers and corrects timing by 1, 2, 4, 8, 16 (etc.) scan lines at a time.

A full field TBC buffers and corrects a half frame at a time (262 interlaced scan lines in NTSC).

A full frame TBC buffers and corrects all 525 scan lines (both sets of interlaced lines), or even multiple frames.

[slacker]

gshelley61,

Which camp does a camcorder fall into?

[gshelley61]

Digital camcorders usually have full frame TBC's for analog recording/passthrough

[davideck]

Whats the difference with a line tbc as opposed to a full frame tbc (with the ag-1980)?

A TBC is basically a FIFO (First-In First-Out) Memory. Its number of scan lines is the depth of its FIFO.

A "Line TBC" has a limited correction window of several lines. A "Full Frame TBC" has an infinite correction window because it can drop or repeat entire Frames whenever the video input timing passes through the video output timing.

Frame Synchronization requires an infinite correction window.

[deuce8pro]

Whats the difference with a line tbc as opposed to a full frame tbc (with the ag-1980)?

A TBC is basically a FIFO (First-In First-Out) Memory. Its number of scan lines is the depth of its FIFO.

A "Line TBC" has a limited correction window of several lines. A "Full Frame TBC" has an infinite correction window because it can drop or repeat entire Frames whenever the video input timing passes through the video output timing.

Frame Synchronization requires an infinite correction window.

Okay, can you say that again english please?

But anyways, I would like to know how someone would know that it has a "line tbc" and not a "full frame" or "full field" tbc (as its advertised) and if it does in fact has a frame synrchonization. Im confused because it doesnt too sure from what im reading.
I bought one on ebay for $168 btw.

[davideck]

deuce8pro -

I have posted a more detailed description here;
https://forum.videohelp.com/viewtopic.php?t=279530

One way to test for Frame Synchronization is to view the video output signal on an oscilloscope and verify that there is no loss or corruption of the composite sync components during tape dropouts or record gaps. It might sound a bit complicated, but it is actually pretty straightforward once you know what to look for. If anyone with a scope and an AG-1980 wants to give it a try, I'll be happy to step you through it.

[SingSing]

Since TBC are almost all digital with an internal PLL clock, do we expect the TBC output is dead on the synch pulses and features on the scope, or else it is not doing its job ?

[davideck]

A Frame Synchronizer should provide a valid composite sync reference at its video output at all times. It might position the picture information incorrectly while it is locking up to the input, but the composite sync components should remain unaffected and be stable without discontinuity.

[deuce8pro]

To anyone who owns the ag-1980. Does yours make an almost hissing sound when in use? Maybe im describing it wrong, but please post if your does or doesnt.

[deuce8pro]

Btw after comparing a tape played back in a JVC svhs vcr with tbc to a Panasonic ag-1980. The ag-1980 is much better with tbc and set to detail/smooth.

[gasman2]

Man, when you guys get going it is just a stream of consciousness! Thank you for all your suggestions and while you pretty much lost me early in the thread, I have reread this a number of times with notes taken, done the same with the thread referenced by davideck on standalone DVD recorders, and studied lordsmurf's excellent website. I have the following questions:

1. I am leaning toward a DVD recorder due to it's ease of use. What is most important in my project is getting it done. The quality of my home video material does not warrant extensive intervention (am I correct here?). My goal is just to get the best copy possible with respect to brightness, contrast, and color and burn edited segments to DVD.

2. Davideck recommends Toshiba. Do all models have the quality TBC performance and picture quality he alluded to?

3. I am assuming that the A-D conversion occurs before the DVD burner, but the DVD burner does the MPEG compression and stores the video on the hard drive. Do you then burn a DVD, use that to do the editing on the computer, or can I just connect the DVD/HDD to my computer as an external HDD and do the editing that way?

Getting closer. Thanks

[davideck]

1. I am leaning toward a DVD recorder due to it's ease of use. What is most important in my project is getting it done. The quality of my home video material does not warrant extensive intervention (am I correct here?). My goal is just to get the best copy possible with respect to brightness, contrast, and color and burn edited segments to DVD.

Your requirements have a DVD/HDD Recorder written all over them.

2. Davideck recommends Toshiba. Do all models have the quality TBC performance and picture quality he alluded to?

Here are some comparison tests;
https://forum.videohelp.com/viewtopic.php?p=1452941#1452941
https://forum.videohelp.com/viewtopic.php?p=1482771#1482771

3. I am assuming that the A-D conversion occurs before the DVD burner, but the DVD burner does the MPEG compression and stores the video on the hard drive. Do you then burn a DVD, use that to do the editing on the computer, or can I just connect the DVD/HDD to my computer as an external HDD and do the editing that way?

You'll typically have to burn a DVD to transfer to PC. Otherwise, you can edit, author, and burn on the HDD/DVD Recorder itself. No PC required.

[FulciLives]

I am rather fond of my Pioneer DV-531H-s and the new current model (DV-640H-s) is even better in that it doubles the HDD size (mine has an 80GB HDD whereas the new current model has a 160GB HDD).

Here is what I normally do ... I trim the start and end points of the recording and if it is from TV I tend to leave the commercials intact ... then I burn to a DVD-RW ... RIP the DVD-RW to my computer ... then I use VideoRedo or MPEG-VCR to edit the commercials out ... then I import into TMPGEnc DVD Author to create a custom menu and chapter points ... burn to a DVD-R.

Then I reuse the DVD-RW over and over and over again.

Now you can do ALL of the editing on the Pioneer but you have two choices.

1.) Edit GOP "I" Frames
2.) Edit at any point you want

If you do one then there will be no re-encode when you copy to a DVD-R or DVD-RW etc. as long as the recording is "short" enough to fit. However you can only edit on an I frame and an I frame only happens about 1 frame out of every 15 frames.

If you do the Frame Accurate editing (Edit at any point you want) then when you copy to a DVD-R or DVD-RW etc. the recording will be re-encoded which is something you want to avoid.

This is why I do editing of commercials on the computer. With VideoRedo and/or MPEG-VCR (take your pick as both work the same) you can do frame accurate editing without forcing a total re-encode (it will re-encode at the edit points if not on I frames but that ain't no big deal).

So that is one thing to consider when editing on the HDD of a Pioneer. I believe Toshiba works the same way.

Only "bad" thing about the Pioneer is you get no DV/FIREWIRE/IEEE 1394 input. Not the worse thing since all digital camcorders have analog outputs but some people with digital camcorders would rather have a digital input (i.e., DV/FIREWIRE/IEEE 1394).

I like the Pioneer because it is very feature rich yet fairly easy-to-use and produces excellent image quality.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

P.S.
Here is a link to an old thread where I post some still images of captures I made with my Pioneer DV-531H-s and by all accounts the quality of the new current model (DV-640H-s) is the same.

https://forum.videohelp.com/viewtopic.php?t=284140&highlight=