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  1. Member
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    I was believing that DL was the way to go if you wanted to record like a three hour show is SP mode until I read what my DVD recorder's user manual had to say.

    If there is a show (recording from TV, for example) longer than two hours and you want to record it on a dual layer disc well guess what? You wont be able to. The manual says that once the first layer is recorded you cannot continue the recording on the second layer unless you close the first layer. Well this can take about 30 minutes to do so. But the TV show continue on!. By the time the closing process is finished you have lost approx 30 minutes of the TV show.

    So what's the point using DL?

    It would be better to just record the show in LP or EP mode. At least you will get the entire show.

    Is this just my DVD recorder or does this apply to all DVD recorders supporting DL?
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  2. Member remmyx12's Avatar
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    I think it would be your dvd recorder.
    The best thing to use is hook up your or a seperate computer to cable tv and let it record and burn. This makes perfect recordings of your shows and has all the same features as a tivo.
    Hope this helps
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    you may want to change you title to more adequately state your problem. It sounds like you are saying dl in general is a bad idea, when in fact it's only not working for you and your machine.
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    The best thing to use is hook up your or a seperate computer to cable tv and let it record and burn. This makes perfect recordings of your shows and has all the same features as a tivo.

    Are you refering to a computer with a TV-Tuner card and the input is from the Cable that normally goes into the TV set?

    If so, I already have this on my PC.

    Using this method and then burning it using a software application was always my alternate option. I just didn't want to go this way as long as I had a stanalone DVD recorder on top of my TV set.

    Since you stated that it is probably my DVD recorder do you then have a DVD recorder that does record continously on both layers?

    Do you know a brand name recorder that does this?

    The DVD recorder that I am using is still way within the 30-Days return policy and I have no problems returning it and purchasing another brand or model.
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    you may want to change you title to more adequately state your problem. It sounds like you are saying dl in general is a bad idea, when in fact it's only not working for you and your machine.

    You're correct. It wasn't a proper title.
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  6. The new Panasonics work as you describe. The first layer must be closed. Other recorders like the Pioneer or Sony will not do that but at the layer change, the Pioneer is said to have about a four second break and the Sony about a one second break. Burning DL on the computer does not result in any noticeable break at the layer change. There are no recorders I know of at present that burn DL seamlessly across the layer change.

    The advantage of closing is that can you decide where it occurs. This works well for compiling video clips where you can decide where to close the first layer and then add more clips to the second, but for recording continuously it does not work at all as you have found.
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    OK. Thanks. Makes some sense anyway.

    So I guess then my options would be to either record in LP/EP or copy entire show from TV or Tape onto my hard drive and then burn DL from there.

    BTW: Is there alot of noticeable difference in overall quality between SP and EP recorded DVD?

    I did an EP VHS recording once and when I played it back on my newer VHS player the quality didn't seem to diminish that I noticed.
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  8. Generally speaking, tape recorded at longer times deteriorates less than dvd recorded for longer times due to both processes and the recording material.

    I have a hard drive recorder so I can record a single title for up to twelve hours. I split the title and copy to dvd-rw's and use those to transfer to my computer which with software can combine, for example, two SP mode recordings to make a single, seamless DL recording.

    I use the recorder to edit out the commercials so two hours of TV ends up much less.
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  9. Member DVWannaB's Avatar
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    maybe this was already mentioned or maybe does not apply, but if your recorder has a HDD (hard disc drive), then record your shows there. Then burn to your DL disc. I have a Sony and recording in real-time through the layer break is froth full of danger, ie, I experienced the same as you did. Recording to the HDD, edit commercials and then inserting DL disc for burning works every time especially when I used Verbatim. Sony does have a second sometimes a bit more of a pause at the layer break.

    Sidenote:
    I have found that burning a DL disc with PgcEdit and IMGBurn (on computer) gives the best results. Virtually no pause at the layer break or so slight it is barely noticeable.
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    I don't see where IMGBurn deals with DVD movie files. There is no .VOB file support by this product. So what does it do?

    All of my movies are in VOB formats.
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  11. Originally Posted by jmsrickland
    I don't see where IMGBurn deals with DVD movie files. There is no .VOB file support by this product. So what does it do?

    All of my movies are in VOB formats.
    IMGBurn will only write a previously created DVD image file. You would compile your disc with something like Nero and then save as an image, then burn with IMGBurn.

    That aside, I have to agree with DVWannaB's suggestion of using a unit with a built in HD. I have such a unit and I find that the only time I use the burn function is when I want to move a HD recording onto the computer for editing. Everything else I just delete. For the most part, If there is something on TV that I plan to burn to disc, I just use my computer's PVR.
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  12. Member FulciLives's Avatar
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    ImgTools (the classic version is the best one as there are different versions) is a program that can take a DVD Video folder (with the IFO and VOB and BUP files etc.) and turn it into an ISO IMAGE file.

    You then Burn the ISO IMAGE file with ImgBurn.

    In fact you can even set up ImgTools so that once it creates the ISO IMAGE file it will automatically open ImgBurn and start burning. This makes the otherwise two-step process and single step "press button" ... walk away ... come back ... DVD Video disc is done and ready-to-watch.

    - John "FulciLives" Coleman

    P.S.
    A future version of ImgBurn will be able to do everything without ImgTools but that version of ImgBurn has yet to be released (but it is being worked on right now).
    "The eyes are the first thing that you have to destroy ... because they have seen too many bad things" - Lucio Fulci
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    I am still slightly lost a bit on DL. From reading the posts I get the impression that even at best there will be some slight pause between the layer change, even a 2-second pause is noticable.

    I thought that newer DVD Players that supported DL playback could avoid this pause. I have a fairly old DVD player, about 6 years old, and when it plays a movie on a DL disc there is always a slight pause; it seems like less than a second however, but still a pause. Now, if a 6 year old DVD player that does not support DL has only a pause less than a second then I would think a newer player that does support DL would have no pause whatsoever?

    Now as far as using these tools mentioned above that tells me that I must first record the movie on my standalone recorder, finialize the disc, take that disk over to my PC and do something with it by using Nero and than do something with the output of Nero by using ImgBurn and then the output of ImgBurn is still not in a VOB format but rather something called an ISO format. Seems like alot of extra steps just to try and get around the DL problem of having a slight pause.

    I took a three hour movie that I had on VHS and copied it to my standalone DVD recorder and recorded most of it in SP mode. I then took that same movie and recorded it again in EP mode (here I can get the entire 3 hours). When I played each one back again I didn't notice any difference in the quality of the two. Now, if the difference between an SP and an EP recording is un-noticable or just slightly noticable it seems to me that recording a very long movie in EP would be better that doing it in SP on a DL disc and/or avoiding all those extra steps.

    I don't know. Maybe it's just me that I cannot see the difference between SP and EP and you all can really see the big difference. But for what slight difference there might be, and again to me it's the same, I think I will just stay with EP mode recording when it comes to movies longer than 2 hours.
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  14. If the quality of a recording, say EP, is acceptable to you then go for it. Who says everything in life must be perfect.

    Panasonics have a mode between SP and EP called LP that records 4 hours. EP can be set at 6 hours or 8 hours.

    Many recorders have a "Flexible Recording" option, several besides Panasonic. These you set a time and the recorder will fill the entire disk. This is great for video between 2 and 4 hours.

    My experience with +R DL is I have to close the first layer and open the second. But given what I record which is already taped items, it's not so bad, especially if I can Flex Record both layers
    Panasonic DMR-ES45VS, keep those discs a burnin'
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    I did it in EP just because I wanted to see just how much of a difference there would be between SP and EP. LP is probably a bit better than EP but for sure that EP recording sure did look ever bit as good as the original which was in SP. I was quite surprised to see the LP mode. I thought that LP went out years ago. Some of my old VCR recorders/players had SP/LP/EP modes and back in those days the difference between SP and EP was quite noticable especially if the recording was in color. I have purchased several new VCR players and the LP does not exist on them. Even when I ask sales people in retail stores like Best Buy, Sears, Circuit City, etc none of them have even heard of LP.

    One thing that I read in the user's manual was that it said that the sound would be better in EP(6H) as opposed to EP(8H) mode. I used EP(8H) and I thought the sound was just as good as the video.

    Anyway, in my opinion, DL still has it's bad sides to it. I can see when you are using it to record two movies or one movie and extra stuff like the comerical ones do but for a single movie recorded accross the two layers just doesn't live up to my standard. I think a slight bit in loss is better than a split movie where the seperation is quite noticable.
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  16. Member Cornucopia's Avatar
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    Just wanted to make sure you guys understand that "SP", "LP" and "EP" on a DVR/PVR have absolutely no bearing with those same designations as used on a VCR.

    On a VCR, the tape's linear speed is progressively slower, making the diagonal RF signal recorded on the tape [edit: more and more] vertical. There are 3 speeds (SP=2hr, LP=4hr, EP aka SLP=6hr), although the actual length has more to do with the amount of tape spooled onto the reel (those "8hr" tapes are just thinner, so they can spool more onto the same size reel). Most VCR's these days only record SP and EP/SLP, although they should all playback all speeds.

    On DVR/PRV recorder, the designation determines the capture/encoding bitrate (and chosen resolution). If it's going to HD and only HD as a PS/TS, or to +VR or -VR mode on optical disc, there are a variety of resolutions and bitrates available. If the intention is to get the program to a standard DVD-Video compatible DVD recordable disc, however, you are then constrained by the few resolutions available to DVD. This manifests itself when recording direct to optical disc in DVD-Video mode on DVD-R/Ws, or when dubbing from HD to disc. The HD to disc can make use of other tricks (VBR when transcoding, etc), so this may not be so bad.

    Most of the Bitrate constraints/options are determined by the encoding chip used.
    DVR/PVR's SP, LP and EP could be supplemented by a "SuperExtraUltraVeryLongPlay" mode, etc. These are just marketing designations and aren't at all consistent throughout the industry (yet).

    Scott
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    I think I kind of knew that, somewhat. I always thought that the SP/LP/EP modes on a VCR had more to do with speed of recording where the faster the speed (SP) the better the quality but the more the tape was needed and therefore EP meant the slowest speed and the lesser of the quality and the lesser amount of tape needed. Which if not entirely true it is a close approxamation on my part. So, it would stand to reason that given enough tape then one could record a 6 hour movie is SP mode.

    Since recording on a disc is not a question of the speed of the disc spinning then it would also stand to reason that SP/LP/EP modes would mean lowering the bitrate to get more recording material on the same amount of disc space.

    This was my understanding.

    However in either case, VCR or DVD, SP/LP/EP recording modes will yield a difference in resolution quality. Weather that difference is noticable or not probably depends on the watcher and also perhaps the player machine.

    I can remrember taking an old EP recording that I did way back when and the quality compared to the same recording in SP mode was quite noticable. So I made up my mind never to piggy-back three 2 hour movies on the same VHS tape again. But that old VCR player went south on me. When I went to buy a new VCR recorder I asked the sales person to make sure that the unit would record in SP/LP/EP. He had no idea what LP was. All of the VCR machines only had SP and EP modes. I though that I was doomed because I had a bunch of LP recordings from the early days. But they played anyway, just didn't record in LP. So I recorded a movie in EP on the new tape recorder just to see. The quality was excellent. Even when I played my old EP recordings the quality appeared to be much better that the EP playback on my old VCR. So I simply concluded that LP wasn't needed and that the newer VCR's simply played everything better. When I recorded a 2 1/2 hour movie in EP on my new DVD recorder the quality to me was no less than if I had done it in SP mode. But as I stated above it could be just me and/or the DVD player. Maybe someone else would say that there is a noticable difference in the two modes.
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  18. I noticed the same with VCR's. Four hour tapes that played poorly suddenly played much better on two Sharp VCR's. The same with a Panasonic and Sony VCR I later acquired. The difference is that all the newer VCR's had 19 micron heads. I suspect that is the reason they played back so much better.

    I am a bit surprised you do not see much difference in SP vs EP on a dvd recorder though because most dvd recorders drop from a resolution of 720 by 480 at SP down to 352 by 240 resolution at 6 hours. A small screen or low resolution TV might make it harder to see.
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  19. Member
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    I have a 52 Inch (not HD or LCD) TV about 7 years old. Toshiba is the brand name. The new DVD recorder is a Panasonic DMR-ES25S. The DVD recorder is a Sony SLV-N500 I bought about three or four years ago. The older VCR was an RCA that I bought way back long before DVD.

    EP on the RCA VCR always had a significant noticablity between SP and EP. When I played the EP recording in the Sony VCR the first thing I noticed was how much better it appeard, almost as good as SP but definitely as good as LP.

    I took a commerical movie on VHS and recorded it in SP and EP on the Panasonic just to see the difference. I was absolutely amazed that the quality of the EP was so close to that of the SP I really couldn't see the difference (I'm sure there is a difference however). Even my wife said they looked the same. I have good eye vision and so does my wife. Now I'm not saying that the quality was anywhere near that of commerical DVDs either in SP or EP but just comparing the same movie source it was so close I'd have to use somekind of a special optical measuring device to see the difference. I will still use SP mode for everything that will fit on a 4.7GB disc but for those that are longer than 2 hours I will probably use LP. EP was just for testing. One movie I want to burn on DVD is 7 1/2 hours long. It is an old TV mini series divided up into 3 parts (or tapes) but each tape is longer than 2 hours so I figure I have to lower the bitrate anyway so I might as well put the entire 7 1/2 hours on one disc in EP.

    I think you are correct about the 19 micron heads making the great improvement over earlier models.
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  20. Member FulciLives's Avatar
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    EP mode is like 352x240 with a bitrate of around that of the VCD format.

    XP and SP is 704x480 with a very high to at least decent bitrate.

    If you think SP and EP are about the same with no big difference ... you need ******* glasses or a MUCH better TV.

    - John "FulciLives" Coleman'
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    Oh, no, no, no! You have it all wrong!. I should not wear glasses or get a better TV.

    That would ruin everything. It is far better to leave well enough alone :P .
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  22. If your recorder has an internal hard disk, you may find that you can record on to that and then the recorder does a "best fit" encode onto a blank disc of your choice - including dual layer.

    Well, that's how my Panasonic does it - that also says you can't record in real time to a dual layer disc because of the layer transition (there are a lot of threads in this format explaining why this is an issue), but going from the hard disc first works like a charm.
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    Thanks, garry, for your reply. Mine doesn't have a hard disk. I did, however, find out about Flexible Recording that will do something like that "best fit" encoding.

    As far as dual layer I am not big on that so it isn't going to be a problem with me for some time to come. Besides dual layer discs are quite expensive and I figure a good compromize is to just lower the bitrate. Basically, I was just a little pertrube over finding out this and a few other things that I don't like only after I bought the recorder.
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  24. Such is the cross "early adopters" have to bear - standalone DVD recorders are still evolving as are the discs they use to some degree. Sadly they are targeted at the average consumer who doesn't know (or care) about the finer points and as such such "limitations" are not always made clear... they certainly don't go out of the way to print them on the box !!
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    The problem I find when looking for a DVD recorder (or any electronic toy) is that the sales people are not as knowledgeable as one would like them to be and as such really can't tell you the little things you need to know and the stores do not make available the operating manuals. If I could read those in the stores I could surely make some better decisions on which one best fits my wants and needs.
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  26. Member Cornucopia's Avatar
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    I agree, but most of those stores DON'T want you looking at the manual, they want you to buy on impulse. And if it's the wrong choice, they want you to buy again...

    Scott
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    I think that's about right. But they are only hurting themselves. I buy from places like Best Buy, Circuit City, Wal Mart. Well, if I have to buy on impulse then so be it but if after I take the item home and set it up and it ain't what I want then I just take it back and get my money back. Then I buy the next item and do the same thing, etc, etc, until I find the exact model that best fits my needs. So, in essence, they have to now deal with all those opened boxes and that costs them money.
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    Originally Posted by jmsrickland
    I think that's about right. But they are only hurting themselves. I buy from places like Best Buy, Circuit City, Wal Mart. Well, if I have to buy on impulse then so be it but if after I take the item home and set it up and it ain't what I want then I just take it back and get my money back. Then I buy the next item and do the same thing, etc, etc, until I find the exact model that best fits my needs. So, in essence, they have to now deal with all those opened boxes and that costs them money.
    You could do that, or you could do some research on the net, find out what people are saying about certain products in forums, ask questions about a potential purchase to owners of said purchases, etc etc.

    Surely that's much more informed than pure trial and error.
    If in doubt, Google it.
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  29. Quite a few manufacturers post manuals on their product web pages these days, too. Sometime you have to hunt for them, they tend to get tucked away in the support / download section instead of on the main product page.
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