HD-BURN - how to author?

[e-nation]

i have a DVD+-RW which is capable of "HD-BURN", a burn mode which will write double the capacity of a standard CD-R (1.4 gigs). Yes, it's true, and it works-- well, sort of-- i've burned 1.4 gig data discs, but no dvd player compatible "video" discs yet because of my authoring issue, but i've read testimonials of people who have authored HD-BURN video on CD-R, and it plays in their DVD player. i haven't found a guide yet.

When i select "HD-BURN Video" in Nero 6, one of the authoring products which support this feature, it brings up a template that looks like the Nero DVD video project-- with the Audio_TS and Video_TS folders. Nero will not accept VCD encoded files to be dragged and dropped into this project format, yet a DVD vob file (ripped for example from SmartRipper) is too big for the 1.4 gig capacity of the HD-BURN.

anyone out there been able to HD-BURN Video onto a CD-R and play it in your DVD player? if so, please let me know how you did it!

How should I encode my video files, and what should be my "output" video format? Anyone know of a guide?

I have access to Canopus ProCoder, TMPGEnc 3, Nero Vision Express, Sonic My DVD, Neo DVD Creator, MainConcept Mpg Encoder, Virtual Dub, DVD2SVCD, DVD2Oone, WinMpg Video Convert, Easy X, etc... , which by the way IMHO, i find that just about all of which have their own unique advantages in certain cases...

thanks.

[reboot]

The mpegs would have to be mpeg 2. SVCD or DVD compliant for Nero to accept.

[mats.hogberg]

I strongly suspect there is no way to make a vCD or SvCD on a HDCD at all, and certainly not make it playable on a standalone DVD player

Mats

[e-nation]

The mpegs would have to be mpeg 2. SVCD or DVD compliant for Nero to accept.

does the file extension need to be .vob?

have you authored any HD-BURN Video CD-R's?

[mats.hogberg]

Wont matter. Wont work anyway. I don't think a HDCD is readable at all in any standard CD/DVD reader.

Mats

[CBC]

The HD-Burn process itself is proprietary, which means that only specified
burners & software applications can utilize it, its main downside.
Unless the standalone player you have is HD-Burn capable, you'll never get one to play properly in it. It's main promotion in using it was for simple data
storage to discs that would be used in computer drives.

[e-nation]

links to more info

the thread that made me hopeful:

the manufacurer's claims

i'm willing to give it a try on a few discs... but, i still need to know how to author the hd-video...

fellow hopefuls w/ suggestions?

y'all realize that there are DVD players now available that will even play data CD's w/ raw avi movies? (not that anything is mentioned about hd-burns)
anyone ever try these dvd players w/ raw divx clips?

[CBC]

Yes the Philips 642 DVD players & others have been around for a while that can play DivX avis on CD-RS. But that is a "filetype", versus a "burning process/media reading" issue that is at hand with the HD-Burn.
Personally I think it would be grest to be able to increase the capacity of commone CD-Rs. But unless there's enough of a market out there to convince hardware mfgs to add the capability to playback HD video discs, it's doubtful that they will catch on. Especially when the price of a blank DVD-R is fast approaching that of CD-Rs.

[e-nation]

still waiting for an authroing suggestion...

i need a new coaster badly, but i won't be happy unless it's an hd-burn coaster... why waste the capacity? hehe... maybe it will hold twice the drinks!

anyone attempt a DVD player "firmware" upgrade to enable playback of HD-BURN vid (as suggested by sanyo)? testimonials?

[e-nation]

The mpegs would have to be mpeg 2. SVCD or DVD compliant for Nero to accept.

reboot, do you speak from experience w/ the HD-BURN? if not, how did you know it needs to be MPEG2?

[reboot]

Doesn't matter if you're using HD-BURN or not. DVD spec is mpeg2, and Nero will choke on mpeg1 with HD-BURN.
I successfully burned 3 or 4 disks, however, they only play in maybe 1 of 100 standalone dvd players, and not at all on a computer, unless HD-BURN is installed first.
IMHO, a waste of time. It would be more productive to investigate something like a KDVD , or KSVCD template to increase the amount of video on a disk.
CBC has explained the problem perfectly

[e-nation]

right on...

i bought the dvd-rw drive for $40 as an "open box" item at circuit city... had no idea of the features other that it would burn DVD's (geez, i was happy to find that it support +r and -r !).

so, having the available function is tempting to me to experiment. and wishful thinking that i could save some discs, in addition to the convenience of backing up a dvd on to a single CD-R. (i've encountered dvd's that won't play in my dvd player, so in that case, i've burned 'em to vcd which seems like a huge waste on 2 discs... not to mention the significant quality degradation)

bottom line for me-- i think it's time for a new dvd player for my entertainment center! (suggested cuttting edge dvd players anyone?)
maybe i'll investigate this "1 of 100" standalones that work w/ the hd technology.

thanks to all for the input here.

[Nelson37]

It sounds like all Nero will accept for HD-BURN is DVD-format files that are less than 1.4 GIG. So either heavily Shrink an existing DVD or use a small set of files and author as any normal DVD, just keeping size below 1.4.

As said, no real usefulness to this other than the neato factor.

Not sure if this would be a cDVD on HD, perhaps an HDcDVD???

Would recommend a progessive scan DVD player that does Divx and Xvid, maybe even one that supports HD-burn?

Wonder what the possibilities are of this technology being applied to DVD or even DL?

[e-nation]

either heavily Shrink an existing DVD or use a small set of files and author as any normal DVD, just keeping size below 1.4.

yes, this was my plan. i realize that it is impossible to put an full length dvd on 1.4 gigs in mpg2 standard dvd quality.

i have some guitar tutorial clips that i planned to use for this experiment (maybe about 45 mins worth). i had also planned to try reducing the encoding output quality of the mpg2 so that the size of a full length movie might fit on 1.4 gigs. i haven't done the breakdown, so i'm not sure how small ya can get it at mpg2.

as for how to properly identify this type of disc authoring, i haven't a clue.

[reboot]

You can encode any bitrate you want for mpeg2, however the quality will suffer greatly.
In order to maintain decent quality, and still fit a ton of video on one dvdr, the kdvd templates I mentioned earlier work wonders. SVCD quality (or maybe a bit better) and yet 10+ hours on one dvdr. Combine that with your HD-BURN, and you're pushing the limits.
After a year of multiple disk backups, and running out of storage room, I'm now putting 7 or 8 full length movies on one dvdr. Why? Because I can, and the quality is as good as my 2 and 3 disk SVCD's (on my crappy TV's). Not recommended if you have a 36" HD widescreen :P

[e-nation]

the kdvd templates I mentioned earlier work wonders. SVCD quality (or maybe a bit better) and yet 10+ hours on one dvdr. Combine that with your HD-BURN, and you're pushing the limits.

perhaps i misunderstand what you mean, but FYI-- hd-burn, as far as i've seen, is a CD-R only function and has nothing to do w/ DVD-R.
your 10+ hour testimonial is nonetheless amazing, and i intend to investigate your practice for sure! please post details about the software, process, etc. if you are able. thanks!

Doesn't matter if you're using HD-BURN or not. DVD spec is mpeg2

i think this issue is a large part of the crux of what got me started...

okay... the HD-BURN template in Nero looks like a DVD vid template... but does that indeed mean that the files must be "dvd" compliant files? i mean, it's not like the hd-burn is a "miniDVD"...

what i'm thinking is... can Nero be tricked in some way to put the lower bitrate mpg's in there, and yet still have some player (yes, the player that doesn't exist) read it?
i don't recall seeing anywhere that an hd-burn disc is read as a DVD...

not knowing the functionality of the player, in terms of what it would read, i think poses the problem of answering this question. i mean, what if in a perfect world, mpg1 vcd's were able to be 2.5 hours long for example... would the dvd player play it?

i know this post is convoluted, and not well-thought-out, but i hope you get my drift.

[mats.hogberg]

What about authoring to a really oversized (S)VCD image with VCDEasy, then burn this image? Not sure if a cue/bin can be written at all to a HDCD, but if it can, that approach should work... (But you still wont find a standalone player that can play it!)

/Mats

[reboot]

I was referring to the kdvd templates as an alternative, more on that in a minute.
There are also kvcd and ksvcd templates, which allow much more video (at a lower bitrate) to fit on one cdr, sometimes with almost no loss in quality.
The Nero template for hd-burn requires mpeg2 video, which is either svcd or dvd compliant. AFAIK, it will not accept mpeg 1 (VCD).
You could use VCDGear to change the header and fool it into thinking your VCD's are actually mpeg2.

I doubt you can "fool" Nero into thinking much of anything. At best, you can get it to ignore what's wrong with the compilation, and burn it anyhow. I gave up after playing with it for a day, it's a neato toy, but not practical, because of it's incompatibility.
The player would recognize (S)VCD and DVD headers and file structure, and attempt to play the video. Having double the amount of data crammed onto one disk though, the head may simply not be able to read the tracks properly, and just hang (not a good thing I would think).

The kdvd templates produce an extremely low bitrate mpeg2, however, using a bit of magic with the GOP (and other things) quality is maintained at a reasonable level. Far more than simply encoding VBR at a very low bitrate using tmpgenc's standard templates.
You mentioned that you have a dvd writer, hence my suggestion to look into it.
Instead of putting 1 full movie on one cdr at about 20¢, you can put 8 movies on one dvdr for about 50¢...you do the math :P
You also get the benefits of a (mostly) compliant dvd, that should play in almost all players, and if authored in something like DVDLab, full motion menus, chapters, etc., not so with hd-burn.

[e-nation]

(But you still wont find a standalone player that can play it!)

/Mats

hehe... thanks, Mats! i appreciate your integrity on that issue for sure.

hmm... VCDEasy... i think i have that here somewhere...
any special instructions for setting up the cue/bin, etc?

thanks again!

[reboot]

My mistake, I meant to say VCDGear. Load the mpeg, select the VideoCD button, tick the SVCD box, load your mpeg, select your creation method (mpeg to cue/bin would probably be the one you want). Click the start button.
You can also extract the mpeg from your image with this app, by clicking on the VCDGear button, and selecting your conversion in the Extraction/Conversion box.

Edit. I screwed up again. Use tmpgenc with the "header trick".

[e-nation]

My mistake, I meant to say VCDGear

VCDGear...instead of?

I was referring to the kdvd templates as an alternative, more on that in a minute.

from what program do i get a KDVD template? this thread is the first i've heard of it.

i've investigated the vcd "header trick" in the past, but never arrived at what i considered to be a sufficient "guide". (i have a dvd player that won't do s-vcd, only vcd, but frustration w/ the technique has kept me from ever actually trying the "trick")

thank you all for your contributions to this thread. i will try your suggestions when i have time... probably the weekend. i look forward to the trial and error. (does this make me a "geek"?... hehe... dunno why i enjoy it so)

[animatron]

from what program do i get a KDVD template? this thread is the first i've heard of it.

http://www.kvcd.net/portal/articles.php?lng=en&pg=15

[mats.hogberg]

Never mind what format to use - just do a really too big standard (S)VCD mpeg and try to author it as such. If you can get that to work, you might consider trying KVCD/KSVCD/KDVD or other formats that's out of standard in other ways than that the disc is HDCD format.

/Mats

[reboot]

The header trick is too simple.
Just remux as VCD in tmpgenc, then burn as VCD.
Guide: http://www.vcdeasy.org/modules.php?name=_Guides&id=VcdTrick
This doesn't re-encode the video, it just "fools" the software into thinking it's something else. Plays well on most players.
This link goes directly to the templates: http://kvcd.net/dvd-models.html
Just download the one you want, and put it in your c:\tmpgenc\template folder. It will now be available to select in tmpgenc when you click "Load".
As I mentioned above, at least this will create a (mostly) standard dvd mpeg, that should play on most players. HD-Burn will not.
What Mats is also suggesting, is you encode an (almost) double size SVCD, then author and burn in Nero's HD-Burn template. If your player won't play SVCD, then encode a double size SVCD, use the header trick to make it appear as a VCD, then burn.
Forget VCDGear, I was OTL on that, and meant to say "...the header trick in tmpgenc..." (too much software creates confusion )

[e-nation]

cool... i'll have to try that header trick! i understand now about the kvcd stuff... used the link above and got to them through the forum as directed by animatron. interesting stuff... haven't tried yet... look forward to it though... this might be the answer i seek.

VCD vs SVCD vs "the header trick":
i have a jvc which plays both vcd and svcd-- used to do cd-rw's also, but suddenly stopped playing 'em.

so i stuck it in the "spare" room and brought my sony to the main room. the sony does vcd but no svcd, and played cd-rw's up until a few weeks ago when it stopped also. (comments? i suppose that's discussion for another thread...)
interesting note... neither player would recognize a DVD-RW.

i intend to get a new player soon cause i like the ability of playing the cd-rw discs. will likely go w/ one of those new multi-format players as discussed above. before i do that, anyone recommend a way to "clean" the dvd player-- assuming that perhaps mine might be gunked w/ nicotine and tar (yes, a filthy habit)