Why better quality with WMP than my DVD Player?

[westwingsw]

Hey everyone -

I encoded an avi into a SVCD MPEG using TMPGE and then bruned to a CD using VCDEasy. I have an Apex AD-1500 DVD player.

My question is why my MPEG looks so much better using Windows Media Player on my computer than it does on the DVD player? With WMP, the quality of the picture is in incredible better and clearler but on the Apex DVD player the picture is grainy and pixelated (blocky too).

Am I doing something wrong or can the DVD player just not display the picture as well as my computer can? Or, do I lose quality when I go from a file on my hard-drive to a CD to play in a DVD player?

Thanks for all the help!

-Scott

[ksandbergfl]

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On 2001-11-30 09:26:58, westwingsw wrote:
Hey everyone -

I encoded an avi into a SVCD MPEG using TMPGE and then bruned to a CD using VCDEasy. I have an Apex AD-1500 DVD player.

My question is why my MPEG looks so much better using Windows Media Player on my computer than it does on the DVD player? With WMP, the quality of the picture is in incredible better and clearler but on the Apex DVD player the picture is grainy and pixelated (blocky too).

Am I doing something wrong or can the DVD player just not display the picture as well as my computer can? Or, do I lose quality when I go from a file on my hard-drive to a CD to play in a DVD player?

Thanks for all the help!

-Scott
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I have noticed the same thing with my Apex-550 DVD player. With the Apex, I can play my MPG's on both VCD's and data CD's.... so I compared the exact same videos - one was in VCD format, the other was just the MPG file on a data CD.

The MPG file on a data CD plays noticeably better! The VCD has a lot of blockiness, while the straight MPG1 does not.

However, the Apex does not allow me to use features like zoom, fast-forward, rewind, or step when it plays the straight MPG1 off of the CD.

So.... I think that perhaps there is some CPU processing "overhead" associated with providing functions like zoom/FF/RW, which affects the playback of a VCD. Since the CPU doesn't have to provide zoom/FF/RW when playing an MPG1, it can decode the bitstream faster.

Either that, OR -- perhaps something is done to the MPG1 file when it is put in a VCD image? I use Nero to make my VCD's. Nero might be "tweaking" the MPG1 as it composes the disk image, so that the MPG1 supports zoom/ff/rw functions.

If anyone here can shed some light on this, I'd sure like to know... it doesn't make sense that the EXACT SAME MPG1 plays differently if it's on a VCD, compared to a data CD.

[westwingsw]

Thanks for the reply.

Yeah, that doesn't make sense. I tried the same thing with (Data w/Easy CD Creator vs Nero) and while the quality was a little better, it wasn't by much (Maybe because I used an SVCD and not a VCD? Any ideas?)

In any case, it still played A LOT better under Windows Media Player 7 at full screen than it did on the DVD player.

I thought that when you convert to an MPEG 2 and use the SVCD settings (480 X 480 ect. ect.) that quality is supposed to be better on a TV than on a computer monitor, but yet, full screen WMP beats the APEX AD1500 by a very very very noticable margin.

I've got to be doing something wrong right?

-Scott

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: westwingsw on 2001-11-30 10:53:10 ]</font>

[sracer]

Apex players are notorious for their poor VideoCD, SVCD, etc. playback quality. Their claim to fame is that they can play them...not that they play them well.

I actually experience the opposite.... MPEGs that play only moderately acceptible on WMP, look stunning on my DVD player. (I have a Pioneer DV-434). When I used to play them on my RCA 5220P, I too noticed that they didn't look too good. So again, the DVD player itself is the major factor.

As for why the video looks better as an MPEG on a data CD vs. VideoCD, it boils down to how the data is stored on the disc and how the Apex reads those different disc types. Data CDs have error detection/correction bits, and checksum information so that NO data is lost. VideoCDs, like audio CDs, don't have the same level of detection/correction. Apex players are pretty sloppy when reading the disc, so it doesn't grab all the data..and hence the artifacts, skipping, and a/v sync problems that are so common with Apex VCD playback. When playing back MPEG files from a data CD, it grabs all of the data.

[westwingsw]

So with the Apex I'm sorta screwed...Oh well...

ksandbergfl - Can you please let me know what settings you used and how you burned as a Data CD? I tried with EZ CD Creator 4.0 and 5.0 and the results weren't that much better than as a regular VCD. Am I doing something wrong or is there a setting you used maybe? Any help would be appreciated.

Maybe I should try encoding to a VCD instead of SVCD and then going through the data route?

Thanks!

-Scott

[ksandbergfl]

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As for why the video looks better as an MPEG on a data CD vs. VideoCD, it boils down to how the data is stored on the disc and how the Apex reads those different disc types. Data CDs have error detection/correction bits, and checksum information so that NO data is lost. VideoCDs, like audio CDs, don't have the same level of detection/correction
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I'm not sure I understand this... The MPG file is the SAME, isn't it? Are you saying that Nero/EasyVCD/et al somehow "tweaks" the MPG file as it makes the VCD image? That's the only way what you wrote could be true. The MPG is already on my hard drive in "data" format. I copy the same file to a VCD and then to a data CD. The error detection/correction (CRC or parity bit?) wouldn't change, unless Nero strips it out or modifies it.

I think it's more likely that the DVD player's firmware is just poorly written for VCD mode (what you've been saying about the Apex's all along). When you play the same MPG in "straight MPG" mode, it plays better because the Apex firmware isn't doing all the extra VCD support.

Although.... I have some VCD's made from DVD rips (a friend picked them up in Malaysia), and the Apex 550 plays those quite well. Apex's VCD playback performance must also have to do with the way the MPG's are encoded....

[ksandbergfl]

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On 2001-11-30 12:26:04, westwingsw wrote:
So with the Apex I'm sorta screwed...Oh well...

ksandbergfl - Can you please let me know what settings you used and how you burned as a Data CD? I tried with EZ CD Creator 4.0 and 5.0 and the results weren't that much better than as a regular VCD. Am I doing something wrong or is there a setting you used maybe? Any help would be appreciated.

Maybe I should try encoding to a VCD instead of SVCD and then going through the data route?

Thanks!

-Scott

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I capture using a Dazzle USB, at 2Mb/s. I then use TMPGenc to make a VCD compliant MPG1 (1.15Mb/s). Then I use Easy CD Creator to make a simple data disk... then I use Nero to put the same file on a VCD.

You can also just put the 2Mb/s MPG on a VCD or data disk, the Apex plays those just fine too. That makes the VCD an "XVCD".

[Humvee]

I too have a New Apex AD-500W and am having the same results. I take a high quality AVI or MPG that plays well on my WMP 7.0 from my hard drive.

Then I drag it into Nero 5.5.4.0 (with the SVCD plugin), and Nero burns it to the CD-R as a SVCD (I don't see any options for setting screen quality or even resolution in Nero). When I playback on the Apex the screen quality is noticeable worse.

My CPU monitor is a Sony 19" and my TV is a Sony 32" and both have excellent picture resolution. It seems that the problem is either something Nero is doing or else that the Apex is not reading all of the image?

One thinh I have noticed if anybody has the answer please let me know.

No matter what kind of file I drag into Nero..... it appears in the "tracks" list with a resolution of exactly
352x240. Shouldnt Nero give me the option of buring the files with higher or lower res? Is this part of the problem?

2nd question:

I read on another person's post that he burned VCD's without the SVCD encoding (just copying?) and when he popped them into his Apex, he got a DOS like menu that allowed him to play the MPG files (with a much improved picture)....

I have many CD-R's that contain MPG and DAT files (many of whichj started out as VCD'd) that I just "copied" to CD-R using Easy CD Creator that came with my HP 8100+ recorder.

None of them will play on the APEX. Were they not "burned" or "copied" correctly? Should I have used Nero? In Nero it gives you the option of buring the files as "data" "video" or "both". Which should I use in order to just get the DOS menu and play the files at a higher resolution. The ability to zoom is not a good trade-off for picture quality for me.\
If any body can enlighten me please reply.
Humvee

[westwingsw]

Let me throw another question out...

Should I take back my Apex AD 1500? Is there another DVD player out there that's between like $80-100 that will play VCD's on CDR's and give me picture quality that is either the same or better than Windows Media Player?

Or, does anyone who has an Apex have any suggestions for me, other than the one already out there?

That's all I really want here...I have pretty good quality in WMP and if I can just transfer that to the CD, I'd be thrilled right now.

Any and all suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks!

-Scott

[Greg12]

I understand Pioneer models are quite good.

However, APEX cheapness applied to me because i move my DVD player between houses and take it to present slideshows and movies.

If someting happens, I don't loose a major investiment.

[sracer]

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On 2001-11-30 13:46:33, ksandbergfl wrote:

I'm not sure I understand this... The MPG file is the SAME, isn't it? Are you saying that Nero/EasyVCD/et al somehow "tweaks" the MPG file as it makes the VCD image? That's the only way what you wrote could be true. The MPG is already on my hard drive in "data" format. I copy the same file to a VCD and then to a data CD. The error detection/correction (CRC or parity bit?) wouldn't change, unless Nero strips it out or modifies it.
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What I'm saying is that VideoCDs are a different format than data CDs. Nero doesn't "tweak" the MPEG, it "writes" it differently when burning a VideoCD vs. a data CD. when the MPEG is on your harddrive, it is in "data" format. when it is on a data CD, it is in "data" format. When it is on a VideoCD, it is in "video" format. Even though your PC appears to read the disc the same, they aren't...they're different.

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I think it's more likely that the DVD player's firmware is just poorly written for VCD mode (what you've been saying about the Apex's all along). When you play the same MPG in "straight MPG" mode, it plays better because the Apex firmware isn't doing all the extra VCD support.
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There is no "overhead" involved with "VCD support"... zoom, fastfoward, rewind scan, etc. aren't a drag on the player.

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Although.... I have some VCD's made from DVD rips (a friend picked them up in Malaysia), and the Apex 550 plays those quite well. Apex's VCD playback performance must also have to do with the way the MPG's are encoded....
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Video playback quality is highly subjective. The 550 does a poor job of playing VideoCDs... ripped from DVDs or manufactured. They may "appear" to play well...until you play it side by side a player of higher quality... then the difference is quite apparent...and the lower quality of the Apex becomes intollerable when you discover that there is such a significant difference for only a few more dollars in price. (That is what I discovered anyways) I had done some pretty extensive research when looking to replace my RCA 5220P player. I thought I was going to be happy with the 500W, until I compared it to the Pioneer DV-434.

[sracer]

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On 2001-11-30 19:02:12, westwingsw wrote:
Let me throw another question out...

Should I take back my Apex AD 1500? Is there another DVD player out there that's between like $80-100 that will play VCD's on CDR's and give me picture quality that is either the same or better than Windows Media Player?

Any and all suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks!

-Scott
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Scott, please do yourself a favor and return the Apex. Do a few price searches on the 'net and local electronic superstores... you should be able to find a Pioneer DV-343 or DV-434 for as little as $129. The $30 difference is so well worth it. But don't take my opinion as the last word, take one of the VideoCDs you created and try it on those players. See it for yourself.

[ksandbergfl]

I was at Eckerd's last night, and saw a copy of Consumer Reports. It has a review of DVD players. It says the Pioneer DV-434 doesn't play MP3 audio CD's. Is this true? One of the reasons I bought the Apex is because it plays MP3 audio as well.

[sracer]

Yes, it is true that the DV-434 does not play MP3 CDs. I have a Philips eXpanium portable MP3CD player so I didn't have a need for it on a DVD deck. Playback quality of DVD, VCD, SVCD, etc. were top priority for me. But if MP3 was important, I'd pick up the Pioneer DV-444 which is the 434+MP3 playback.

[westwingsw]

What's the difference between the 343 and 434?

Somewhere said it was a Progressive Scan option or something, but I'm not a DVD expert so I have no clue what that means. Is it something that would improve VCD/SVCD playback? Is it worth the extra money?

Are there any other differences?

Thanks!

-Scott

[sracer]

Progressive Scan (in a nutshell) is the ability to create the illusion of a higher res image by de-interlacing the video information.

You'd also need a Progressive Scan TV to match it. However you can use the DV-434 in non-progressive mode. The DV-434 apparently doesn't do a good job with progressive scan (according to the comments in home theatre review sites)...

but I don't have a progressive scan TV so I don't use that feature.

[Macros746]

Humvee,
If I'm not misunderstanding you and you are dragging an .avi file directly to Nero and then burning as a VCD THIS is one of the reasons you are getting such terrible quality. You are letting Nero do the encoding for you. Try running your AVI through DVD2AVI and then through TMPGenc and then let Nero do the rest...you'll be much happier with the results. If you have any questions about how to do this youshould be able to find answers in the guide links to the left. If not, drop me a line and I'll help you out.


Mark