Capture Card Vs Firewire

[josh684]

I am trying to put my SVHS video onto DVD's. I got a new video card (AIW 9600) and I am not able to get a good quality picture out of it. Now I am probably gonna get a new camcorder and I was wondering If I use the passthrough on it, will this get me a good picture with no quality loss and no dropped frames?
Thanks
Josh

[Capmaster]

I am trying to put my SVHS video onto DVD's. I got a new video card (AIW 9600) and I am not able to get a good quality picture out of it. Now I am probably gonna get a new camcorder and I was wondering If I use the passthrough on it, will this get me a good picture with no quality loss and no dropped frames?
Thanks
Josh

You'll never get a video with "no quality loss". The question is how much you are willing to tolerate.

Using a passthrough will give you video in DV format. This allows you to then do a 2-pass encode on it instead of a 1-pass that hardware MPEG encoders provide. It gives you more flexibility in filtering and other post-capture processing, and allows you to edit freely without the sync loss concern you would have with MPEG editing.

The downside is that it takes oh, so long to encode DV to MPEG prior to authoring.

[edDV]

It will come down to the quaity of the Camcorder S-Video to digital conversion vs. the AIW 9600. The camcorder will capture the S-Video into a DV stream over IEEE-1394 (or record to DV tape). At the computer end, the DV stream can be directly saved to a DV-AVI file (13.5 GB/hr) or realtime transcoded to MPeg, WMV, Divx, etc.

If you capture to a DV-AVI file, you can then invest in non-realtime quality encoders but paying the encoding time penalty.

So, for realtime transcoding, what are the issues?

1. Camcorder capture (pass-thru) quality vs. AIW 9600 capture quality. Pay attention to audio to video sync on long captures.

2. ATI realtime encoding quality vs. other encoders like Mainconcept, Pinnacle, WMV, Divx, etc.

This sets the framework for comparison tests.

PS: I use the Canopus ADVC-100 in place of the DV camcorder for this kind of capture. I find it subjectively superior to captures from my ATI AIW-8500DV but I haven't done formal comparison testing for highest quality settings. I find the realtime MainConcept codec very good for DVR type recording (DVD Mpeg2 or SVCD) from my cable box. I just haven't gotten around to transferring my S-Video and Hi8 collections to DVD.

[josh684]

Were can I download this "realtime MainConcept codec". Right now I tried to use the one for AVI that is in the "How-To Capture" for AIW on this site. I then use Ulead to put it on a DVD. On the video it was like I could kinda see small black squares in the backround, and it seemed to be skipping alot of frames. When MainConcept Codec, what kind of settings should I use? And I will capture this with the AIW Multimedia TV right?
Thanks

[FulciLives]

Were can I download this "realtime MainConcept codec". Right now I tried to use the one for AVI that is in the "How-To Capture" for AIW on this site. I then use Ulead to put it on a DVD. On the video it was like I could kinda see small black squares in the backround, and it seemed to be skipping alot of frames. When MainConcept Codec, what kind of settings should I use? And I will capture this with the AIW Multimedia TV right?
Thanks

Forget that MainConcept codec.

If you want to capture direct-to-MPEG then you need to use the software that comes with the ATI card.

However you could do an AVI capture and then after the capture convert it to MPEG format using a software MPEG encoder such as TMPGEnc Plus or Cinema Craft Encoder (aka CCE BASIC) or MainConcept MPEG encoder etc.

If you want to try to capture to AVI then you can use the ATI software or you could try either VirtualVCR or iuVCR.

When you capture in AVI with this ATI card it is best to use either the HuffyUV codec or the PICVideo MJPEG codec (on either the 20 or 19 quality setting ... the 20 setting is best unless you have a slow computer or you are tight on HDD space in which case 19 is a good alternative).

Give that a try then report back

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

P.S.
Here is a website with a lot of info on ATI AIW capture cards:
http://www.digitalfaq.com/

[edDV]

I'm talking about using the Mainconcept (or other realtime encoder) to directly transcode the DV stream coming in from the camcorder over IEEE-1394 where the camcorder is capturing analog to DV using "pass-through".

This is the alternative to using the ATI card as discussed above. I have the Mainconcept encoder in Ulead Video Studio 8 (also in Adobe Premiere and Vegas 5). Other codecs can be used and compared.

[FulciLives]

I'm talking about using the Mainconcept (or other realtime encoder) to directly transcode the DV stream coming in from the camcorder over IEEE-1394 where the camcorder is capturing analog to DV using "pass-through".

This is the alternative to using the ATI card as discussed above. I have the Mainconcept encoder in Ulead Video Studio 8 (also in Adobe Premiere and Vegas 5). Other codecs can be used and compared.

You got your stuff all mixed up!

Are you talking about doing a DV AVI capture using the Mainconcept DV codec or are you talking about capturing from the DV AVI comming through the FIREWIRE (or IEEE 1394) directly to MPEG-2 using Mainconcept MPEG encoder (the capture function)?

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[Ron B]

I've had pretty good luck capturing with my AIW 9800Pro using VirtualDub and huffyuv. I tried Ulead VideoStudio6 but it had audio/video syc issues, probably due to dropped frames. I'm afraid to use ATI MMC, never have liked it. VirtualDub is a straightforward, no frills program. I like that. I encode with TMPGEnc using 2 pass VBR.

[vhelp]

@ fulci,

I think edDV is saying that w/ MC, (and it's software app) that it
can capture (real-time) during the DV firewire transfer. I think
that this is a featrue of an Capture and Encode app (MC for instance)
and can problably do this (if MC is using the driver pass-through
for DV) - - I think that Ulead does this to, because in my Ulead app,
it includes my DV cam as one of the drivers to capturing with (and
then encode to *other* format ie, mpeg; dv; huffy; rgb etc)
.
At least that's my understanding. And, I'm basing all this from my
DVD Xpress box, which is a hardware mpeg (USB device)
.
So, my guess is that if any app can show (as capture sources)

* VFW; WDM; and MPEG as driver-ready sources, than DV is no exception.

-vhelp

[edDV]

"Are you talking about doing a DV AVI capture using the Mainconcept DV codec or are you talking about capturing from the DV AVI comming through the FIREWIRE (or IEEE 1394) directly to MPEG-2 using Mainconcept MPEG encoder (the capture function)?

- John "FulciLives" Coleman"

The latter as clearly stated several times in the posts above. This refers to realtime MPeg2 capture from the ATI card vs Camcorder analog pass through. I suggest you read the thread from the beginning.

The two methods:

Alt 1. S-Video->Camcorder DV encode->IEEE-1394->DV-AVI file
then edit and encode to MPeg2 non-realtime

Alt 2. S-Video->Camcorder DV encode->IEEE-1394-> Realtime MPeg2 encoder

The latter can be done by several applications. My example used the ULead Video Studio 8 (and its included Mainconcept MPeg2 encoder)

[josh684]

Ok, So I just tried the M-JPEG codec, with not much luck. Let me read off my settings, maybe I am doing something wrong.
Resolution: 640 x 480
Frame Rate: 29.97
Standard: NTSC, NTSC-J
Codec: PCI VIDEO M-JPEG3 VfW
Decompressor Settings: Brightness and Contrast at Zero and Enable Codec Checked off
Compressor Settings: Encode Normalized YUV Checked off and Quality at 20, Subsampling at 4:2:2 and Luminance and Crominance Quality at Zero. And 2 Feilds if more than 240 lines check off. Capture High Resolution Stills is check off in main menue.
So those are my settings. Its still doing the same thing were I can actually see the pixels and it makes for ragged edges and outlines of black squares in the backround.
Thanks
Josh

[edDV]

"Its still doing the same thing were I can actually see the pixels and it makes for ragged edges and outlines of black squares in the backround."

Have you tried other tapes? You could also test with a clean VCR Tuner output from the SVHS VCR to separate the equipment connection issues from the tape playback issues.

[edDV]

To separate issues even more try these steps

Cable box -> S-Video -> ATI AIW 9600
test the various codecs. This is your baseline.

Cable box -> S-Video -> SVHS VCR (E-to-E) -> S-Video -> ATI AIW 9600
test the various codecs with cable input, then capture from a tape.

see where the process breaks down.

[josh684]

Sorry, I am a bit confused. Thanks for the patience. I am going from my SVHS camcorder(S-video Out) to S-Video in of my AIW. What should I do again, you want me to try a live feed from the camera to see if that clear?
Thanks
Josh

[josh684]

I tried the live feed with the same results and also tried the composite video instead of S-Video with no luck.

[edDV]

Yes test that it will work with a clean input first.
Tape playback adds a second set of issues.

[edDV]

ahh, something else is wrong then

[edDV]

Does the AIW capture well from its own tuner? Can you make a good MPeg2 encode?

[vhelp]

@ josh684

Well, getting a new cam won't hurt (in replacement for your Analog)

But, as far as quality goes, your mialge will vary. But, with a
DV type cam corder (w/ pass-through) you have a very good chance that
you'd be saying good-bye to endless framedrops.

In my case, I have two alternatives w/ DV. I have my TRV22 and my
ADVC-100 and both give me great quality video "reproduction" from
various sources and w/ out any hint of MV association (for vhs)

As far as quality (from above, as well as other options) that is
subjective to your view. Only you can make that final determination
on each option.

-vhelp

[FulciLives]

The two methods:

Alt 1. S-Video->Camcorder DV encode->IEEE-1394->DV-AVI file
then edit and encode to MPeg2 non-realtime

Alt 2. S-Video->Camcorder DV encode->IEEE-1394-> Realtime MPeg2 encoder

Well Mr. Smart Ass I don't appreciate your ******* attitude.

This is totally different wording than before.

This makes sense.

What you posted originally was a mess and made NO sense.

Don't tell me to read. Learn how to write.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[edDV]

Have a nice day

[lordsmurf]

To use MainConcept for capturing, you'd better a poweful computer to not drop frames. My P4 1.8 has to have bare minimum settings to capture. For optimal settings, better have a P4 2.5 or higher. I've tested this on many P4 and AMD systems in the 1.5-2.0Ghz range.

Satstorm always talks about how he caps high res on his old system, and I'm not sure how he does it, and I've never seen him give any details.

[edDV]

"To use MainConcept for capturing, you'd better a poweful computer to not drop frames..."

Very true, here is my experience

I use a 2.4GHz Celeron, 512MB RAM, Canopus ADVC-100 to IEEE-1394
as my DVR from cable box + utility VHS capture (JVC HR-S4800U).

For basic realtime capture I use ULead Video Studio 8 (MainConcept encoder). These are typical realtime capture CPU loads. I don't see framedrops typically using these rates.

CPU 75-86% for 720x480 MPeg2 DVD, 8000Kb/s, MPeg L2 48K 224kaudio (default setting)
CPU 85-95% for 720x480 MPeg2 DVD, 6000Kb/s, MPeg L2 48K 224kaudio
CPU 90-97% for 480x480 SVCD MPeg2,2375Kb/s (default setting)
CPU 68-79% for 352x240 VCD MPeg1, 1150Kb/s (default setting)