International Waters and the internet - a question

[yoda313]

Hello,

So if the old stories of anything goes in the international waters what about downloading from the internet???

Can the RIAA and MPAA get people who download from a cruise ship in the middle of the Atlantic or Pacific Ocean??????

Has this been tried in court????????

Kevin

[makntraks]

Hello,

So if the old stories of anything goes in the international waters what about downloading from the internet???

Can the RIAA and MPAA get people who download from a cruise ship in the middle of the Atlantic or Pacific Ocean??????

Has this been tried in court????????

Kevin

Why? Are you moving????

makntraks

[yoda313]

Hello,

Why? Are you moving????

No......

I'm just curious about the precedent... I mean if you had a satelite internet link up would they be able to touch you if you were downloading out in the middle of nowhere?????

Kevin

[Capmaster]

I don't think the MPAA or the RIAA can "get" anyone in the middle of the US. They are just trade associations with no legal authority to do anything to anyone at any time.

Any more than the AARP could arrest you for impersonating a codger to get the 10% discount at Mama Guido's Italian Restaurant

[glockjs]

uhhhh the cost alone just to use the internet on those ships might as well just buy the albums

[Capmaster]

uhhhh the cost alone just to use the internet on those ships might as well just buy the albums

Yeah. It'd mean satellite or a ship-to-shore repeater to a land line. $$$

To answer your question Yoda (didn't mean to go off like that, but those two groups make me see red) they can indeed get a law enforcement body to enforce their copyrights, I believe, or at least file a civil action if no laws are broken. Some copyrights are international and some lesser ownership rights are only domestic, but I'm guessing here and adam would be the better person to comment on the legality.

If it's a US-only right you're violating, you'll be safe unless you're in the waters of a country that has reciprocity in effect for laws observed and extradition treaties if it comes to that. I'm not sure how much of that applies to D/L material from a cruise ship.

I guess I can't answer and maybe shouldn't have posted this

[BJ_M]

they claim jurisdiction world wide, no mater where you are, because the data flows through the usa ..

for real - im not kidding ..

some people from Europe where already tried in the usa because of this loophole if you want to call it that ..

all the cases are prob. be tried in Virginia .. if you saw their laws there on hacking or downloading or anything .. you would freak out ... makes the dmc look like peter pan stuff ..


the IP system as we know it is still classified as a usa military thing also -- btw ... IPs up to a while ago where technically leased from the usa gov .. u didnt own them .. i think this is changed now though ..

[housepig]

uhhhh the cost alone just to use the internet on those ships might as well just buy the albums

got to agree - when I was in the Atlantic last year on a UK->US cruise, I popped in at the Business Center aboard ship to see how much interweb service was, just to check my email...

.... try $5 per minute. at less than 56k.

needless to say, if you search the archives, you won't find any posts from me for the second week in December....

[glockjs]

and think about it too, if i was agent zero minor would i wanna go to po-dunk middle of no man's cow farmin crop duster college football saturday oklahoma or a nice tropical warm half naked womens utopia....hmmm, where would i wanna go to bust you?

[SquirrelDip]

Even if you could they could get you when returning to land - You've got to save the downloaded stuff somewhere...

[yoda313]

Hello,

Capmaster - yeah you're probably right they'd use UN power to get you

BJ_M - didn't know that IP was a US seceret

Housepig - $5 a minute????? Boy that makes Dual layer media look cheap in comparison!!!

squirreldip - I'm not obviously gonna go on a cruise just to download movies - besides if it were possible and you had the means - I'd buy a house boat and park it 5 miles off Florida and have no worries!!!

Kevin

[BJ_M]

it is kinda a pointless thing anyway when you can drive (or walk) and within 5 minutes find an open wireless connection ..

[glockjs]

it is kinda a pointless thing anyway when you can drive (or walk) and within 5 minutes find an open wireless connection ..

not mine foo :P 128bit encrypted, yeahaha. but i live in an apt complex and yeah, it's stupid how many open connection there are

[pacmania_2001]

Wasn't there a story floating around a year or so back about organised crime gangs in Asia using ships as their duplication factories.

[adam]

BJ_M what you describe sounds more like what's called in rem jurisdiction. Its where you acquire jurisdiction over the property itself, but it can never be used to acquire jurisdiction over the person. It usually applies to physical property like a piece of land, but it can also apply to a website or to some form of intellectual property. I'm not sure how it would apply to a single file you download, but anything is possible today. Anyway, its not really that the jurisdiction is attached in some way to the data, the test is whether you "avail" yourself to that jurisdiction by establishing enough contacts, in this case through servers. If the data flowed through 1 US server, as opposed to more in other countires, its unlikely you could get US jurisdiction on that alone.

Capmaster, there is no such thing as an international copyright. All copyrights can only be granted from soveregnties, but you can easily take your domestic filing and use it as the basis for filings in any other WTO member country under the Trips Treaty. Basically, its not hard to get a copyright which you can enforce almost internationally...almost.

Yoda, the way most countries handle this issue is by tracing the path of the data. They look at which servers are accessed and what jurisdictions they fall under. There are no hard and fast rules. The question is whether it would be unjust to invoke jurisdiction over you, and whether you have "availed" yourself to the jurisdiction of that locality. If you were using a satelite to access the internet I guess it would depend on which country, (if any? are there unowned satelites?) owned the satelite. But this is just jurisdiction. This would determine WHERE you could be sued. Even if a US copyright holder, for example, can't get jurisdiction over you in a US court, that doesn't mean they can't file suit against you somewhere else where they can get jurisdiction.

Since you are talking about the RIAA and MPAA, I assume you are basically just wondering where you'd have to go to avoid US copyright law. Well you'd at least have to avoid falling within the jurisdiction of any country that was a signatory of the Berne Convention and any country that was a WTO member. I think you might as well turn that boat around now.

[sacajaweeda]

People should just buy it if they think enough of the author's work.

/me ducks the flames

[adam]

People should either buy it, regardless of what they think of the author's work, or do without. No reason to duck. But I'm pretty sure the question is just hypothetical in nature.

[ViRaL1]

Is Cuba included?

[adam]

Is Cuba included?

Yes. Check my hyperlinks above. Cuba is both a WTO member and a Berne Convention Signatory. They would enforce US copyright law if the infringement of a US copyright occurred in their jurisdiction.

[Capmaster]

Thanks adam. I had a feeling you could enlighten us on the laws about this

[ViRaL1]

Interesting that Puerto Rico isn't on either list.

[adam]

Isn't Puerto Rico a US territory bound by US law? That's what they always told me in school but somehow I think it might be more complicated than that.

[ViRaL1]

Maybe if we can help them win their independence, we can have a haven for priacy.

[bugster]

Maybe if we can help them win their independence, we can have a haven for priacy.

It seems to me there are quite a few of those already!

Being bound by international laws/agreements etc is quite different from enforcing them

[NamPla]

Can astronauts aboard the International Space Station download stuff with immunity?

[yoda313]

Hello,

But I'm pretty sure the question is just hypothetical in nature.

YES! I was just wondering about technicallities and all....

Yoda, the way most countries handle this issue is by tracing the path of the data. They look at which servers are accessed and what jurisdictions they fall under. There are no hard and fast rules. The question is whether it would be unjust to invoke jurisdiction over you, and whether you have "availed" yourself to the jurisdiction of that locality. If you were using a satelite to access the internet I guess it would depend on which country, (if any? are there unowned satelites?) owned the satelite. But this is just jurisdiction. This would determine WHERE you could be sued. Even if a US copyright holder, for example, can't get jurisdiction over you in a US court, that doesn't mean they can't file suit against you somewhere else where they can get jurisdiction.

Since you are talking about the RIAA and MPAA, I assume you are basically just wondering where you'd have to go to avoid US copyright law. Well you'd at least have to avoid falling within the jurisdiction of any country that was a signatory of the Berne Convention and any country that was a WTO member. I think you might as well turn that boat around now.

Thanks! I'll check them out sometime....

Kevin

[BJ_M]

BJ_M what you describe sounds more like what's called in rem jurisdiction. Its where you acquire jurisdiction over the property itself, but it can never be used to acquire jurisdiction over the person. It usually applies to physical property like a piece of land, but it can also apply to a website or to some form of intellectual property. I'm not sure how it would apply to a single file you download, but anything is possible today. Anyway, its not really that the jurisdiction is attached in some way to the data, the test is whether you "avail" yourself to that jurisdiction by establishing enough contacts, in this case through servers. If the data flowed through 1 US server, as opposed to more in other countries, its unlikely you could get US jurisdiction on that alone.

......................

you may be certainly correct - but I didn't make it up ... it flowed through at least 1 usa server -- and that is how they they claim (and successfully) jurisdiction and prosecution ..


there is one now where they dont even have proof it flowed through the usa , but it might have ..... plus 1 email at least did .... so they are charging someone ...

they are going after off shore spammers also the same way ..

[offline]

If you want a data haven, give me a couple of
mill and I'll succeed from Australia.

The main trouble with international waters is
that they are um.. wet.

[yoda313]

Hello,

The main trouble with international waters is
that they are um.. wet.

That's only if your boat SINKS!

Kevin

[offline]

boat ?