Recommend me a TV to monitor restoration work

[anitract]

I finally bit the bullet and bid on and won a used Elite Video BVP-4. I'd now like something (other than my PC LCD screen) to monitor video as I make adjustments with the BVP-4.

Anyone have any recommendations on TV-brands or models? Something with good / accurate picture quality?
__
FYI:
*I will only be capturing and working with NTSC sources, so I probably don't want a HI-DEF solution (right?)

*Money and size are factors...I can spend $200 tops, and about all I have room for is 24" max

[gshelley61]

I use a high res (800x600) 14" Sony Trinitron GVM-1311Q medical monitor (which has the same tube as their expensive BVM series broadcast monitors). Great for near field project work. Far superior to a consumer TV of the same size.

Check eBay for a used one. Here's a GVM-1315TS which looks nearly identical to my 1311:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Sony-GVM-1315TS-Trinitron-Color-Video-Monitor-1315-TS_W0QQitemZ753...QQcmdZViewItem

There are similar solutions, but that particular model is a good deal if you can find an off-lease unit in good shape. It has s-video and composite (BNC) inputs. I got mine for about $120 plus shipping.

[anitract]

How'd something like that compare to the PVM series?

Also, the top TV I've been thinking of getting is the Sony KV-27FS120. It's a 27" FD Trinitron WEGA Flat Screen TV (LINK).

[edDV]

How'd something like that compare to the PVM series?

Also, the top TV I've been thinking of getting is the Sony KV-27FS120. It's a 27" FD Trinitron WEGA Flat Screen TV (LINK).

First a bit of background on "monitor" vs. TV

A Monitor has these features:
- measures video as an instrument. Goal is to show video as it is, not try to make it pretty*.
- quality CRT and stable electronics
- has provision for precise calibration by user (e.g. underscan, blue screen, filters, maybe cross display to evaluate H&V blanking)
- newer models include computer interface

A TV has these features
- receives over the air or VCR video and attempts to make it pretty.
- various auto correction circuits including AGC, color correction, detail enhancement
- consumer features like PIP
- sound features

If you want a TV that will substitute for a monitor, look for extensive setup menus that allow you to turn off all the enhancement circuits.

* the idea is it is your job to make the video pretty upstream of the monitor.

[anitract]

I see...interesting. I was kinda hoping to use what I bought as a bedroom TV as well...so that's why I am kinda leaning towards the standard TV option. Maybe a 20" set. The sony 20" WEGA and Samsung Dynaflat both look nice, though I'm not sure on the setup menus...anyone know what brands have advanced menu options?

[gshelley61]

How'd something like that compare to the PVM series?

Also, the top TV I've been thinking of getting is the Sony KV-27FS120. It's a 27" FD Trinitron WEGA Flat Screen TV (LINK).

I believe the PVM series uses the standard res tubes. On a 13" that would be 500x200. edDV makes a good point. One of the reasons for the big difference in price between GVM series medical monitors and BVM series broadcast monitors is the additional professional controls (underscan, etc.) that he mentioned, along with the sturdier build quality required for the broadcast units. GVM-1311Q monitors ran about $1500 new, while BVM-1311 broadcast monitors were more like $3500.

[edDV]

A TV will work for first approximation and is OK for home use.

[anitract]

The perfectionist in me can see the logic in a monitor...the practicalist is shouting to get a TV. I don't know who to listen to... lol

[edDV]

If its any comfort, I just use a "HD ready" TV as a SDTV monitor and turn off all the enhancements while editing. This TV will show the full 720x480 DV resolution as I edit and I have it calibrated with a variety of test signals.

When I use a filter in Vegas or Premiere, I'm confident that I'm seeing what is going on.

This rig isn't adequate for true pro work but good enough for pro-sumer.

[vhelp]

Here's my two cents ...

hmm.. I don't know. I think you will (in the end) be adjusting
that certain TV/Monitor level, your source tweaks and things.

Are you adjusting for yourself, or others ??
Are you adjusting for widescreen vs. fullscreen in mind ??

If you asnwered, for others, then the only thing you have to
realize is this.. not every "others" have the same tv setup.
Not to mention the widescreen vs. fullscreen into that equation
also.

Also, (IMO) if you are going to be fine-tuning your video source
for final MPEG's, your best method for (shall I say) "eyeing" it
would be to use a software player that plays in Overlay mode.
Most do. But, some don't. And, if you are "eyeing" your source
for final MPEG's, you need to be aware of this, else you'll be
making adjustments on darker (RGB) source vs. lighter (YUV) source.

Using Overlay is a better method, because it closely resembles
what you will be seeing on your TV set. And, you really can't use
a pc monitor (any type) as your final adjustment tool if your
final destination will end up on a TV set anyways. But, it is
better than having nothing.

And, when measuring for color accuracy, you realize that you
should be measuring by your *sources* color, and not by what you
see given in standard specs, because chances are, your source
will not be accurate within specs anyways.. for instance, from
a capture device. For example, if a color value is 152, and
the standard says, 190 ..does not mean you should adjust the 152
to a 190 value. The whole color will shift, so to speak. Anyways.
You would be throwing off the balance of the source. Sorry, I can't
quite put it into words what it is that I am talking about.

Cheers,
-vhelp 3487

[edDV]

Here's my two cents ...

hmm.. I don't know. I think you will (in the end) be adjusting
that certain TV/Monitor level, your source tweaks and things.

Are you adjusting for yourself, or others ??
Are you adjusting for widescreen vs. fullscreen in mind ??

If you asnwered, for others, then the only thing you have to
realize is this.. not every "others" have the same tv setup.
Not to mention the widescreen vs. fullscreen into that equation
also.

This was all solved back 50+ years ago by the worlds broadcasters and program producers. It's quality control based on standardized test signals and calibrated instruments for measurement. Levels are set with oscilloscopes (waveform monitor and vectorscope) and more subtile subjective decisions are made using a calibrated video monitor.

The SMPTE and EBU set standards for for these instruments and in theory all edit bays, telecine bays, studio control rooms and transmission monitors are calibrated to these standards. All pro tapes include a color bar on the beginning of the tape that represents the directors choice of color balance for that tape. The TV station tech loads the tape, plays the color bar, makes adjustments if necesssary to line up black and white levels and makes sure the vectorscope dots fall into the 2% squares, then he, the station manager, the ad agency and the viewier can expect that segment to play with the colors the director intended.

An advanced amatuer will follow these same practices and his tapes (dvd's) will also play to standard. Prosumer level capture-editing software now include the tools needed. Standard test signals, waveform monitor, vectorscope, parade display ... just like the pros.

Also, (IMO) if you are going to be fine-tuning your video source
for final MPEG's, your best method for (shall I say) "eyeing" it
would be to use a software player that plays in Overlay mode.
Most do. But, some don't. And, if you are "eyeing" your source
for final MPEG's, you need to be aware of this, else you'll be
making adjustments on darker (RGB) source vs. lighter (YUV) source.

Using Overlay is a better method, because it closely resembles
what you will be seeing on your TV set. And, you really can't use
a pc monitor (any type) as your final adjustment tool if your
final destination will end up on a TV set anyways. But, it is
better than having nothing.

Unless you are "eyeing" on a calibrated monitor, you are just fooling yourself. There is no expectation that a graphics card overlay will match a TV set. It's possible to get close if you adjust everything to standard test signals from say a Vegas or Premiere DV timeline, but you never know for sure until you encode and burn the DVD and then play it back to a calibrated video monitor, and then compare that side by side with what your overlay predicted.

The average person should burn test DVD-RWs for a representative clip and play the DVD to the target TV. The process is repeated until the levels look right. The TV should be adjusted to the THX test signals found on many commercial DVDs.
http://www.thx.com/mod/products/dvd/optimizerIntro.html

And, when measuring for color accuracy, you realize that you
should be measuring by your *sources* color, and not by what you
see given in standard specs, because chances are, your source
will not be accurate within specs anyways.. for instance, from
a capture device. For example, if a color value is 152, and
the standard says, 190 ..does not mean you should adjust the 152
to a 190 value. The whole color will shift, so to speak. Anyways.
You would be throwing off the balance of the source. Sorry, I can't
quite put it into words what it is that I am talking about.

Again you need to first calibrate your system to standard signals (e.g. so that the THX colorbar off a DVD captures to correct levels on your editor timeline). Then you make fine adjustments for each source being captured. That is where the Proc-Amp becomes usefull.

[anitract]

This is pretty interesting stuff to a beginner such as myself. Here is what I think I will do....since this is just a hobby, and will not evolve much past that (I hope), I'll get a pretty nice 20" ntsc TV. I will then calibrate it "as close to calibrated as possible".

My chain will be:
1) JVC SR-V101US ->
2) TBC-1000 ->
3) BVP-4 =>
4a) ATI AIW 9600
4b) 20" TV Monitor

I'll be using s-video cables to connect the different components. After the BVP-4, I'll split the signal, one directly to my capture card, the other to my tv.

I think this will give me a pretty good ability to preview stuff and then just hit capture when I'm ready to capture. Plus, more importantly , I'll have a new TV for my bedroom to replace the 14-yr-old 13" magnavox piece-of-crap.

How's this sound?

[anitract]

Ok, got a question. Been researching 20" tvs. There are some with digital comb filters, and others without.

Is a comb filter only used when dealing with composite connections? So, if I use s-video, for example, would it be bypassed?

[davideck]

Is a comb filter only used when dealing with composite connections? So, if I use s-video, for example, would it be bypassed?

Yep

[BJ_M]

for cheap good quality 20" , look at getting a sony PVM-2030 (which also looks cool) , so many of these are used in every studio and tv station its nuts .. also has a lot of controls and switchable comb filter - but no blue only (just use a filter)

slightly better tube is a GVM-2020 (800x600 res.)

[edDV]

Ok, got a question. Been researching 20" tvs. There are some with digital comb filters, and others without.

Is a comb filter only used when dealing with composite connections? So, if I use s-video, for example, would it be bypassed?

You will notice a big improvement if you use the TV tuner or composite input.
Comb filter quality varies. It won't help with VHS since VHS luminance is hard filtered below 3MHz.

FYI: this is a great overview on comb filters
http://members.aol.com/ajaynejr/vidcomb.htm

[anitract]

Thanks. I'm looking at the PVMs and GVMs...it's kinda tough for me to justify buying used equipment over new.

Is the picture that much better than a nice ntsc TV?

[edDV]

Thanks. I'm looking at the PVMs and GVMs...it's kinda tough for me to justify buying used equipment over new.

Is the picture that much better than a nice ntsc TV?

As stated above. The monitor is designed to show the picture as it is without making it pretty. It is your job to make the picture pretty.

If you hook it to the cable box, you will be able to see just how screwed up most channels are.

[anitract]

lol I see, I see. That kinda puts me in the TV camp. I'll have to think about this a little more. Thanks for all of the help everyone.

[edDV]

Consider the GVM medical monitor. Do you want the doctor to see the real color of your heart scan or should the monitor decide that blue shade should be more red?

[BJ_M]

medical rated monitors use exactly the same tubes as lessor models .. but use a different power supply and grounding to be 'medical grade' .. you pay a prem. for that in most all cases , except the GVM2020 where you can buy used ones ..

the picture quality is exactly the same and they require calibration just like any other monitor ..

[seekninfo]

Do other companies like JVC, Panasonic also make monitors that can be used for restoration? If so can someone please recommend models...

Thanks...

[BJ_M]

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=NavBar&A=search&Q=&ci=1981

[payton34]

Just some curious thoughts on this topic.

Pertaining to outputing VHS or other analog sources to mpeg2 DVD for playback on a consumer TV. It seems one could almost argue in favor of using a TV around the 27" to 32" range over a monitor. Price being a factor in all of this. I would think spending $600.00 or so on a larger good quality TV that as edDV suggested has an extensive menu where you can turn off the various filters would in some ways be better than a more expensive monitor.

A pro monitor approaching that size would be very expensive. You could opt for a smaller 13" pro monitor for around $1500.00. However, it would not replicate the viewing experiance that a typical person would have as they would be veiwing on a much larger screen. A less expensive larger TV option might provide a better real world simulation, especially when it comes to using a detailer as you would be seeing the picture on a screen that would probably be more representitive in terms of size and resolution that a typical consumer's TV would be. A small costly monitor I think would fall short in this area. Don't get me wrong, in the ideal world everyone would have a $5k plus 27" pro monitor, and it surely would provide superior results.

Is there any validitiy to the above opinion, or am I missing something?

Thanks

[BJ_M]

the problem is that the colors/levels on such monitors doesnt stay in tune - and/or can not be made in tune and may contain warping in the image ... they also don't have blue only gun and underscan ...

[anitract]

Those are good points, IMO, though real world experience is a hard thing to approximate no matter what...tvs are all different, dvd players, cables used, etc, etc...

With my case, I've decided (definitely) on the TV route. I can get a lot more use out of a nice "flat tube" ntsc tv than I can out of a monitor. The 20" route seems to look like the best in terms of size, but I am considering 24" as well...if all goes well, I'll find the perfect set this friday when I go into the city to do some shopping.

EDIT: Oh, and my girlfriend would absolutely KILL ME if I bought any more "technology stuff" for my little project (see, I keep buying more and more). I actually kind of had to trick her into thinking I could use a new TV for my bedroom, when I really mainly want it to be used as a monitor. I'm evil, I know.

[edDV]

It all comes down to the tolerance you are trying to get and your audience. Pros have to deal with the ad agency who will reject any product where the colors don't match exactly when broadcast on TV. If you are just watching your old VHS wedding and kid videos at home, you can afford to "touch up" the monitor brightness, contrast, chroma and hue after you mount the tape.

Ad agencies and film directors don't want the night shift VTR operator making these judgements for their product. They insist on a calibrated environment.

Bringing it down a notch or two, if you are making tapes for others to view on a variety of TV sets, you want to produce a tape that is near standard. A TV monitor calibrated to a standard color bar is the best way to see what you are producing. A waveform monitor is great to see that you are capturing the full signal and outputting at correct levels.

Adjusting any TV to the standard SMPTE color bar presented at correct levels will get you close. Turning off the auto circuits will get you closer and buying a real production monitor will get you closer still.

For VHS editing, a reasonable quality TV set is probably good enough. For MiniDV to DVD I find I can get an acceptable calibration using a 27" HD Ready TV in 480i mode. It makes a good proxy for for what people will see on a big screen HDTV especially for high resolution noise and compression artifacts. Beyond that, a high quality broadcast monitor or a large calibrated plasma would be nice but are not required unless your "client" is demanding that level of quality.

Ref:
http://www.videouniversity.com/tvbars2.htm
http://www.thx.com/mod/products/dvd/optimizerIntro.html

[luigi2000]

First, learn how to use video test signals for levels, color and frequency response. Bring a disc of these signals to your local video equipment retailer. Get permission to playback the test disc into the models of interest. Beware of sales people. They know what sells, but they are technically clueless. Select a display that has good focus, frequency response, purity and a good power supply, so that picture size does not change with varying APL which is a common failure in many makes of displays. A twenty-inch display is fine. Display size only determines viewing distance. Make sure the peaking or aperture is adjustable (can be turned all the way down).

Generally, I prefer Sony.

[payton34]

After considering edDV's and other peolpes post' I think I am reconsidering using a TV for a monitor. My budget will only allow me to afford this sony model pvm-14L2. Here is the link..

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=271229&...goryNavigation


Sony also makes a PVM-9 L3. Other than it being smaller what is the difference? They both sell for about the same price.

Also, It would be greatly appreciated if someone could just go though and explain the basic workflow procedure of properly calibrating a TV monitor.

What claibrationg system do you reccommend?

Is the Sony PVM-14 L2 a decent monitor for video restoration?

I calibrate my PC monitor with X-rite Pro for my photograghy. I must admit I am in the dark as to what the procedure is for a TV monitor. Are there different choices in color spaces to calibrate in. I assume Adobe RGB 1998 is not one of them of course.

Thanks

[BJ_M]

nice monitor -- they have some used ones also ...

calibration guide http://www.synthetic-ap.com/tips/calibrate.pdf


you can do it by eye as above or get the Colourvision Spyder2Plus (starts at about 100$)