Recommend me a TV to monitor restoration work

[payton34]

BJ,

I thought that the spyder was a decive dependent RGB monitor profile creator. Does it also calibrate TV monitors?

[BJ_M]

I know some people use one - as reported on some broadcast forums ..

Im not sure how - other than fed out of a NLE ... but its cheap compared to other solutions ..


we use different equipment for this -- but what we uses costs more than the price of that sony monitor ..

you can get pretty darn close by eye.. here is another guide ..


http://www.simvideo.com/articles/monitor_cal.htm

[lordsmurf]

The perfectionist in me can see the logic in a monitor...the practicalist is shouting to get a TV. I don't know who to listen to... lol

I would just invest in a nice tv that you feel gives you a clean and color-perfect image.

[anitract]

Anyone else looking to use a TV as monitor might want to check out this link...

http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-6463_7-5085739-1.html

...it gives a very basic procedure for "calibrating" a TV by eye using DVDs. Of coure, this is cnet we're talking about here, so take at face value.

PS. It's my b-day today!

[payton34]

BJ and fellow video help users,

I just recently got Premiere Pro 1.5. When editing and doing some color correction, what is the procedure and what hardware and software do I need in order to hook up a monitor in order to observe color correction filters I might apply at various points on the time line?

Thanks

[edDV]

BJ and fellow video help users,

I just recently got Premiere Pro 1.5. When editing and doing some color correction, what is the procedure and what hardware and software do I need in order to hook up a monitor in order to observe color correction filters I might apply at various points on the time line?

Thanks

Since v5, Premiere has supported monitoring through the IEEE-1394 connection using the DV hardware codec in your DV camcorder or DV transcoder. Just connect the video monitor to the S-Video port on your camcorder. The monitor feed follows the active window in Premiere.

Premiere includes test patterns for monitor calibration including standard SMPTE color bars calibrated for DV levels. Unfortunately, NTSC DV camcorders output with zero black setup on the analog NTSC S-Video output instead of normal 7.5 IRE setup. For this reason, you will need a different brightness level for DV monitoring than that used for the DVD player*, cable box, laserdisc or VCR. This isn't an issue for PAL users where 0-100 IRE is the standard, or for NTSC users that use DV transcoders with 7.5 IRE black level outputs.


*although the DVD MPeg2 standard is the same as DV standard with black at digital 16 and white at digital 235 representing 0-100 IRE, most NTSC DVD players add 7.5 IRE to black for the analog outputs (composite, S-Video and analog component).

[payton34]

Hello again edDV and everyone,

I was wondering if I could use a bi directional avdv converter such as the Canopus 110 to hook up my "Calibrated TV monitor" while color correcting in Premiere instead of the DV camcorder. If this is possible, do you think that the canopus 110 will probably have some way of setting the black levels to 7.5 IRE?

Thanks

[edDV]

Hello again edDV and everyone,

I was wondering if I could use a bi directional avdv converter such as the Canopus 110 to hook up my "Calibrated TV monitor" while color correcting in Premiere instead of the DV camcorder. If this is possible, do you think that the canopus 110 will probably have some way of setting the black levels to 7.5 IRE?

Thanks

Yes and Yes

I use the ADVC-100 for both capture and monitoring. With Sw2 in the 7.5IRE position, the ADVC maps DV 16-235 levels to 7.5-100 IRE in analog NTSC for monitoring or dubbing.

On the input side with the switch in the 7.5 IRE position, the laserdisc player, VCR and cable tuners all map (capture) directly to DV-DVD 16-235 levels.

I only wish that DV camcorders did the same for NTSC analog inputs and outputs. If you haven't seen this tutorial, it covers the basics.
http://pro.jvc.com/pro/attributes/prodv/clips/blacksetup/JVC_DEMO.swf

[anzimike]

Nice tv. I would suggest you purchase or rent something like Joe Kane's "Video Essentials" and calibrate the tv properly or even have it professionally calibrated. Best of luck!

[BJ_M]

Joe Kane's "Video Essentials" is for consumer tv and is a bit of a noob disk when comes to pro use ..

it is also not that easy to use with crazy chapter stops everywhere -- the new edition is much better - but still not really for professional use .. why / because you have to play the disk from a dvd player which adds setup (and are not consistant) or if you play it from your pc -- you are expecting your video card to output true ntsc or smpte - which very very few can ...

[edDV]

Joe Kane's "Video Essentials" is for consumer tv and is a bit of a noob disk when comes to pro use ..

it is also not that easy to use with crazy chapter stops everywhere -- the new edition is much better - but still not really for professional use .. why / because you have to play the disk from a dvd player which adds setup (and are not consistant) or if you play it from your pc -- you are expecting your video card to output true ntsc or smpte - which very very few can ...

Very true,
further...

It is a mistake to think in terms of monitor calibration only. What you are doing is calibrating your entire NLE (non-linear editing) and display system including these parts (ignoring audio for now):

Capture card, camcorder and/or external capture device.
VCRs, DVD players, laserdisc players
Computer graphics display card(s)
Cable/DBS box, internal TV tuner
Video and computer monitors

and last but far from least codecs and encoders.

The first step is to establish a calibration reference. In the hardwae video world this is a calibrated test signal generator along with a calibrated waveform monitor and third a calibrated video monitor. Figure $1K to 2K for each device.

In the consumer NLE world we need a less expensive surrogate for the test signal generator and waveform monitor.

If you are using a mid level editing package (e.g. Adobe Premier Pro, Apple Final Cut Pro, Avid Xpress DV or Sony Vegas) the calibration support is built in although poorly documented.

more to come ...

[BJ_M]

you can get a Horita CSG-50 Color Bar / Black Burst / Sync / Audio Tone Generator, Timer, Full Field or SMPTE Color Bars, NTSC for $400

or a kramer/compressive for about $350-400

[payton34]

Thanks edDV and BJ,

I have re read this thread and have gone over all the links you provided showing how to claibrate your video monitor.

I am confused on one point. When I calibrate my PC display in order to work with my digital images in photoshop CS2, I use a colorimeter. This device, along with the software generated color patches insures that I am displaying colors that are true to the Adobe 1998 color color space that the image file is tagged with.

In the video realm, when calibrating a video monitor you are relying on the accuracy in which the smpte color bars were created in the first place. The second part of the the workflow is the accuracy of the device, i.e. DVD player, you are using to send those smpte color bar signals to your video monitor. If the playback device you are using alters the smpte color bars in any way, would it not make calibrating your video monitor less than acceptable?

My question is where do you get a reliable source for smpte color bars, and what reliable playback device to you use to generate those claibrated smpte color bars on the video monitor you are trying to calibrate?

Is it possible that when I purchase a monitor such as the Sony PVM-14 L2, it has the ability to generate smpte color bars on its own, internally? This would seem to make the most sense.

This has been a really helpful tread, thanks to anitract for starting it.

Thanks, looking forward to your answers.

[edDV]

Think of it this way.

There are two sets of calibration controls on a video monitor, internal and external. The external controls are the familiar

brightness (aka black level)
gain (aka contrast, picture, white level)
chroma (aka color, saturation)
tint (NTSC only, PAL monitors self calibrate for tint)
color temp (aka white balance, similar to indoor, outdoor film calibration)
blue switch (used to set chroma and tint from color bar)

RGB calibration is assumed correct at the user level. The internal controls might be considered "service technician controls" and work at the RGB level, grouped as.

Linearity (ramps, trapizoid, pincussion, size, position, rotation etc. for R, G, and B)
Convergence (beam focus, scan adjustments to converge color triads)
Gamma, fine gain, frequency response, etc. for R,G, and B
other alignment detail adjustments.

These internal R, G, B controls are analogous to the Abobe calibration you described above and rely on different sets of test patterns, colorimeter probes and the like. These adjustments might be done monthly to annually by a qualified service technician. Pro monitors usually have a lock and key for the RGB controls to prevent user access. The maintenance technician carries the key.

The external adjustments are done daily for equipment setup and more often when changing projects or equipment configuration.

I hope this helps.

[BJ_M]

for professional use - you dont use a dvd player for calibration (though some use a pioneer 7200 to align some non broadcast display systems)

you use a smpte generator - which will be calibrated at the factory against a standard (and that standard against another one) , they will often give you a report showing this and each device used in calibration right up to the 'master' device (along with a date each device was checked) ..

calibration on pro devices (not just video) are only good for a certain amoutn of time - then they need to be checked at the factory (or a field service rep.) .. it is big bussness and not always that cheap .. BUT todays devices with their servo feedback loops and locked timings, better power switching power supplys and other tricks are pretty gosh darn stable for a long time ..

[BJ_M]

btw -- it is hopeless to match a pc monitor to a broadcast monitor (except ones that are made for this - can be pretty close but $$ ) and a lcd monitor to crt monitor ..

[edDV]

calibration on pro devices (not just video) are only good for a certain amoutn of time - then they need to be checked at the factory (or a field service rep.) .. it is big bussness and not always that cheap .. ..

True but I think we should talk in tiers of calibration

Pro: Factory level calibration at least ~anunally, RGB adjustments for phosphor "wear" ~monthly, maintenace evaluation ~weekly, workstation calibration ~daily or when changing projects.

Semi-pro: Still use expensive test gear but relaxed calibration standards.

Prosumer: Get it close enough so nobody complains and I get paid.

Consumer: Get it close enough so I can stand looking at it.

[BJ_M]

good point --

in the studios , we calibrate our monitors weekly and generally never turned off

[anitract]

"Consumer: Get it close enough so I can stand looking at it"

lol So true...though some don't even meet that level. Actually, I could not believe how horribly set-up 95% of the display TVs were where I went shopping this weekend (Best Buy, Wal-Mart, and Circuit City to name a few). And this is bad, considering I am not much more than a novice at all of this.
_
Now, for an update on my own little hunt for a good restoration monitor / bedroom television...I’ve been comparing and researching analog tube TVs in the 20-24" range for a couple of weeks now. I conclude that there are only 2 brands/types that meet my criteria for good picture quality: Panasonic PureFlats and Sony Trinitron WEGAs.

IMO, nearly all other TVs do not offer the clarity and picture quality that is needed to use a TV as a pseudo-monitor like I want to do. Basically, doing side-by-side comparisons has shown me that PureFlats and WEGAs are much better than any other tube-based TV out there right now.

Of course, I am not sure how the video signal is altered by these sets’ internal processing mechanisms, but I do know that the menus provided are extensive enough to allow quite a bit of adjustment with regards to the picture quality, which should be fine for my needs.

Overall, I found the PureFlats more vibrant, but... Sony WEGAs seem *to me* to produce more accurate colors and an overall natural-looking sharpness that was lacking in the Panasonic.

So I plan on getting a 24" WEGA tonight at Sears (they will price-match to Best Buy’s current sale price of $289). Hopefully within a week or two I can update you guys with a little review.

FYI: the 20” WEGA has no S-Video connection, which is why I am going 24”. Also, all of the WEGAs that I looked at lacked audio-out jacks (with the exception of a stereo headphone jack on the front, which could be used if you needed audio out for something). I’m not sure why Sony did this, but the for a bedroom TV, I do not really care.

[BJ_M]

just a note on that -- those models and others do not ussually match broadcast monitors as they bump up certain levels to make the picture look better for display ..

think of it as the loudness control on a receiver ... or the colorations added to most speakers to sound 'better' in the demo room ..

[edDV]

As said above, system calibration starts with a proper reference color bar source.

I'll give you a quick overview for calibrating a DV NLE (nonlinear editor) using Sony Vegas software as an example. Later when I get time, I'll open a new thread with more detailed diagrams and waveforms. Note that the TV system is very sensitive to black level matching. An IRE level or two can be very visible near black. White level shifts are much less noticeable.

Equipment used:

PC computer with IEEE-1394 inputs and graphics card (ATI or NVidea)
MiniDV or Digital8 camcorder
TV Monitor (the best you have)
DVD player
VCR
TV source (cable, dbs or OTA box with S-Video and/or composite out)
Canopus ADVC-100 bi-directional analog to DV transcoder

Note: I'm sure a technique can be worked out that doesn't include the ADVC but since I have one, I find it highly useful.

Step 1: DV reference color bar

Set Vegas project format to DV (In my case NTSC DV 720x480, 29.970 fps). Vegas has a media generator that includes SMPTE colorbars calibrated for the DV timeline (i.e 16-235 levels, 720x480/576). Add color bar to the timeline. Set waveform monitor to "Studio RGB 16-235".

Figure 1. DV SMPTE color bar on Vegas timeline


Step2: Verify IEEE-1394 connection to DV camcorder

Record the colorbar to the camcorder, then transfer it back to a file using Vegas or WinDV. Mount the file on the timeline. It should look identical to the color bar source.

Step3a: Calibrate the TV monitor to the color bar using DV camcorder

Set Vegas preferences for IEEE-1394 DV output monitoring. Connect TV monitor S-Video input to camcorder S-Video out. Cue Vegas timeline to SMPTE colorbar. Calibrate monitor.

Ref:
http://www.videouniversity.com/tvbars2.htm
Get blue filter here https://secure.brandlocker.com/promos/thxpromo.cfm

Note: NTSC DV camcorder will output black at 0 IRE and white at 100 IRE. For this reason, brightness and contrast settings will differ from normal 7.5-100 IRE NTSC. Use a custom user monitor preset if it has one.

Step3b: Calibrate the TV monitor to the color bar using Canopus ADVC-100 (Sw-2 = 7.5 IRE)

Set Vegas preferences for IEEE-1394 DV output monitoring. Connect TV monitor S-Video input to ADVC S-Video out. Cue Vegas timeline to SMPTE colorbar. Calibrate monitor.

Note: The ADVC-100 will convert the 0-100 IRE DV output to analog 7.5-100 IRE NTSC levels. This monitor calibration is good for matching all NTSC and DV timeline sources. In this pass of the procedure below, I'll assume the ADVC is being used.

Step 4: Calibrate DVD player (assumes step 3b was used)
Reference DVD player here is a Pioneer DV-363

In Vegas burn color bar to a DVDR. Connect DVD player to analog component, S-Video and composite input connections on the TV monitor. Play color bar in DVD player. In DVD player video adjust menu, adjust DVD player brightness, contrast and chroma levels to properly display the color bar. Switch back and forth to Vegas timeline (via ADVC-100) and adjust for best match on the TV monitor.

I made one DVD player preset using the color bar playback and another using the THX Optimizer technique from a commercial DVD. The results were very similar. Note that I am making these changes in the DVD player presets to a constant video monitor state.
http://www.thx.com/mod/products/dvd/optimizerIntro.html

Note: Vegas will encode and burn a DVD-MPeg2 with 16-235 levels. The NTSC DVD player will map level 16 to 7.5 IRE and level 235 to 100 IRE. Some Chinese players will map 16 to 0 IRE giving results similar to a DV camcoder. In that case, a 0-100 IRE custom monitor adjustment must be used.

Step 5: Calibrate a VCR player (using ADVC-100)

Connect the S-Video or composite output of the ADVC-100 to a VCR input. Connect the S-Video or composite output of the VCR to the ADVC-100 inputs. Switch the ADVC to DV input, analog output mode.

Record the SMPTE color bar to tape. Switch the ADVC to analog input-DV output mode, rewind and play the tape. Capture the VCR playback in Vegas capture program. Play the captured file on the timeline. Note the black, white, chroma and hue levels in the Vegas waveform monitor and vectorscope display. If the levels are off, the VCR needs adjustment, or a proc amp needs to be used to correct levels or Vegas needs to apply digital levels correction filters to match the levels to the color bar reference.

Figure 2. Sample VCR playback to DV timeline through ADVC-100
Waveform monitor shows the luminance signal only. The noise is a combination of normal VHS noise plus chroma crosstalk.
If you look at the white and black bar, you are seeing only luminance noise.


Step 6: Calibrate a TV source (cable box, dbs tuner, OTA tuner)

Connect the S-Video or composite output of the tuner device to the ADVC-100 inputs. Make sure ADVC Sw-2 is in 7.5 IRE position for NTSC sources.

Switch the ADVC to analog input-DV output mode, start capture in Vegas. Cycle through TV channels holding for about 2 seconds before incrementing channels. Place capture file on timeline and manually move from channel to channel noting levels in the waveform monitor and vector scope. If necessary, a proc amp needs to be used to correct levels or Vegas needs to apply digital levels correction filters to match the levels to the color bar reference.

Connect the tuner directly to the TV and check levels. Depending on the source quality, the ADVC-100 Vegas output, DVD player and tuner should all be close in levels. The VCR will show whatever it is putting out.

Fig 3. Sample HDTV Cable box NTSC S-Video 480i out to ADVC-100 to DV.




Well, that is my first pass. More later.

Added: Rough connection diagram

[edDV]

_
Now, for an update on my own little hunt for a good restoration monitor / bedroom television...I’ve been comparing and researching analog tube TVs in the 20-24" range for a couple of weeks now.
...

So I plan on getting a 24" WEGA tonight at Sears (they will price-match to Best Buy’s current sale price of $289).

Last I looked, the overall value maximized at the 27" size. In some cases you need to pay a premium or sacrafice features to get a smaller screen.

[anitract]

edDV, that is what I have found as well...though the Sony WEGAs are a little more expensive accross the whole range of sizes than most other models.

So I ended up buying the 24" WEGA last night. I haven't had time to hook it up to my capturing PC just yet, but my initial impressions are pretty positive. Even though I only had the opportunity to view my cable signal (split, and thus sort of crappy), I did like the picture.

I can't wait to try out a couple of dvds and hook my capturing gear up.

[payton34]

edDV, BJ,

I too am now struggling with deciding between a TV or a monitor for video restoration. edDV made a good point a while back. If you go the TV route it would be best to have a high quality one with extensive menus so as to be able to disable some of the filters.

I purchased a Sony 4:3 32" SD TV about a year ago. It was around $1100.00
It has :
"clear edge"
"sharpness control"
some presets for white balance, cool normal and warm.

These and many other enhancement features can all be turned off. As TV's go for video restoration I would think this model would be a good candidate.

I was talking to my wife and seeeing if she would bite on the idea of using this TV as my video monitor for restoring video and purhcasing a Panasonic or Sony 42" HD plasma for the family room to replace the SD Sony.

I do not want to make a mistake on what ever I decide to purchase. The Sony 14" monitor I am considering is around a $1000.00. This is alot of money for something that only I will be able to use for my video restoration needs. Other than for the blue gun capability I am having a hard time justifying it's purchase. I spoke with a tech. rep at compuvideo about their singal generators. For what I am doing he felt strongly that I would be wasting my money on that small Sony 14" monitor. He felt with my 32" Sony and a quality SMPTE sig. generator I good get more than good enough results. He also addressed something I had mentioned earlier in this thread. While he cautioned not to go larger than 32" for a monitor, he felt there would be a benefit of using the SD 32" TV as my video monitor as this was going to give me a better idea of what the end product was going to look like in terms of size and detail. Especially when it comes to restoring the detail in a particular analog source. Seeing this same source on a little 14", all be it pro monitor will make any picture look sharper than when viewed on a more conventional larger screen like a 27' or 32", which would be more reprsentitive of what the product would be viewed on in the end anyway.

My only concern would be the lack of blue gun capability. He still felt I would be able to get close enough to a properly calibrated mointor using my Sony 32", despite it's lack of blue gun ability. if I used a quality smpte signal genrator.

I already have the TV. I would however be spending quite a bit to replace it with a plasma. On the other hand I might be spending $1000.00 on a small monitor that in some respects might actually limit me in certain regards to video restoration, i.e. detailing.

I am very interested in hearing your thoughts on this. I do not want to make a rash decision.

thanks again everyone

[anitract]

payton34,

If it were me, I'd let my restoration work be a guide as to which route I'd go. For example, if I were going to be using the monitor for captures made primarily for personal use (family, friends), then I'd strongly consider the TV route. If, however, professional standards needed to be met or if I was super serious about my "hobby", then I'd probably get a true monitor.

I think your arguements for a TV pretty much speak for themseves. Also, don't forget that there are much cheaper monitors (used and new) that are out there than the one you are considering...that is, if money is at all a factor.

[BJ_M]

if you do not have a blue gun only setting for calibration . you must use a blue gel filter instead , which you look through to achive the same effect ...

Wratten Gelatin Filter 98 - Kodak catalog number 149-6298

[edDV]

if you do not have a blue gun only setting for calibration . you must use a blue gel filter instead , which you look through to achive the same effect ...

Wratten Gelatin Filter 98 - Kodak catalog number 149-6298

Or get these $3 including shipping.
https://secure.brandlocker.com/promos/thxpromo.cfm

[BJ_M]

geez , 5$ USD to canada .. i can buy a whole big sheet of colortran gel for $3.00 and have enough for 100 glasses .....

those glasses cost 40-75 cents apx. btw in bulk ..
still not bad and one pair will last you forever (or untill you lose them or the dog eats them or the kids rip them apart)

[edDV]

edDV, BJ,

I too am now struggling with deciding between a TV or a monitor for video restoration. edDV made a good point a while back. If you go the TV route it would be best to have a high quality one with extensive menus so as to be able to disable some of the filters.

...I spoke with a tech. rep at compuvideo about their singal generators. For what I am doing he felt strongly that I would be wasting my money on that small Sony 14" monitor. He felt with my 32" Sony and a quality SMPTE sig. generator I good get more than good enough results.

A reference signal generator is highly usefull. Short of that, I get by with the analog color bar output from my Canopus ADVC-100, and the "house SMPTE bar" from Vegas through the ADVC. I didn't mention above that my DV camcorders do not ouput perfect analog levels when presented with a DV color bar. In addition to the lack of 7.5 IRE setup, both camcorders output low luminance. For this reason, the DV camcorder does not make a good analog reference. A camcorder works OK for feeding a TV monitor if you properly calibrate the monitor's custom preset from the color bar.

He also addressed something I had mentioned earlier in this thread. While he cautioned not to go larger than 32" for a monitor, he felt there would be a benefit of using the SD 32" TV as my video monitor as this was going to give me a better idea of what the end product was going to look like in terms of size and detail. Especially when it comes to restoring the detail in a particular analog source. Seeing this same source on a little 14", all be it pro monitor will make any picture look sharper than when viewed on a more conventional larger screen like a 27' or 32", which would be more reprsentitive of what the product would be viewed on in the end anyway.

In theory, screen size is irrelevant. You need the proper viewing distance to equalize for screen size. Use this calculator.
http://www.myhometheater.homestead.com/viewingdistancecalculator.html
For NTSC, you should be viewing the 32" from about 10 feet.
Same result would be 4.5 ft for the 14"

My only concern would be the lack of blue gun capability. He still felt I would be able to get close enough to a properly

Get the $3 glasses.

[BJ_M]

in the studio doing color correction -- i would be about 6" -12" , 3 feet at the most from a 20" monitor ...

7.5 feet , the figure they give would be for home viewing .. not studio use