is there any way to prevent frames drop with a normal VHS ?

[LordVader]

i have like 5 years capturing s#its from directv source, with no problems at all, and in my entire life i've probably made like 20 tries of VHS capturing with no success. Because of the frames drop.

some SLP/EP tapes has lot of flickering and color lines that produce some VHS in EP mode. My tv card for some reason is to sensitive to this type of problems and of course the tracking adjustment.

Is there any way to solve this ? or prevent frames drop with a normal vhs ?

is there any special type of VHS, that produces a clean output, and bypass the TV card sensivity ?

I'm not entirely sure that a S-VHS with TBC will solve this, because i haven't tried a SVHS before, but if this is what i need... wich SVHS is good ?

[andkiich]

VHS and TBC is the way to go. It may not eliminate all dropped frames, but it is as close as you will get in the non-commercial market.

[Bodyslide]

I would end all other PC tasks including firewall, anti-virus and all network connections. This will help reduce the # of dropped frames.

[mikesbytes]

If you have a digital camcorder with analog in, you could copy to the camcorder then transfer to the computer.

I have had great success with this process. In my case I recorded the analog signal to MiniDV tapes, then transferred them to the computer using the 1394 port with the software WinDV. Result - no drop in quality and no dropped frames.

It does sound like you have some deteration at the source and the Time Based Correct (TBC) may well help clean that up. Otherwise, its a case of running it thru some video filters once on the computer.

[wwjd]

I used to have the exact same problems with converting VHS to digital. Dropped frames, flicker and audio sync issues. I used to try and do this using my AIW 7500 capture card. To fix the problem I purchased a JVC s290 VCR that has video stablization and 'S' video out and I purchased a Canopus ADVC-100. The JVC VCR corrected the flickering and the ADVC totally eliminated dropped frames and audio sync issues. The ADVC encodes the VHS analog to an AVI file external to the computer and feeds that to your HD using a firewire.

The JVC VCR cost about $100 and you can probably purchase a ADVC-100 for around $200. I have that a DAC100 will do the same thing as the ADVC but costs less money.

The one thing you will need with setup is HD space. 1 hr of VHS makes a 13GB AVI file. Do not let the file size scare you. All of the authoring and dvd editin software that I have used and tried handles these files very nicely. In fact editing AVI from the Canopus seems a little faster and easier that most of the mpeg files I have tried.

wwjd

[LordVader]

it seems that no one cares about the 4:1:1 conversion, that happens trough the digital conversion process with DV formats. Why ?

i mean, i want my 4:4:4, not a 4:1:1 image of my vhs tape.

In my head something tells me that i can't throw my tapes to the garbage cause there's still some little more quality than what i have in my dvds.

what should be the correct process, to erase these toughts from my mind ?

also, is there any good S-VHS with TBC included ?

[DVD_Ripper]

Also, some camcorders have a built in TBC... so I've gone from VCR to CAM to PC (via 1394) to MPEG capture via MainConcept... all in one step

Works great... no dropped frames, no sync issues.

[trevlac]

it seems that no one cares about the 4:1:1 conversion, that happens trough the digital conversion process with DV formats. Why ?

i mean, i want my 4:4:4, not a 4:1:1 image of my vhs tape.

4:1:1 should not be an issue for VHS. The color bandwidth for VHS is very low (read 'very little color detail is there'). 4:1:1 is more than enough to encode this info. If you add high saturated graphics on top of your VHS footage ... you might see a problem.

This is of course not to say that DV encoders don't have other problems. But they are tops when it comes to ease of use.

[Mr. Orange Pants]

I'm with wwjd. I got a JVC vcr with s-video out and nifty features and I restart my computer with nothing running in the background. I do that with my ati all in wonder 7500 and have no problems capturing at all. I usually capture 2 hours or more with no dropped frames. The most I've ever had was 3.

[BrainStorm69]

also, is there any good S-VHS with TBC included ?

Try JVC HR-S7600U through HR-S7800U, and HR-S9600U through HR-S9911U models.

[VideoTechMan]

Unless you are doing compositing and doing green and bluescreen effects, DV 4:1:1 should not be of any concern to you, because that only becomes a problem due to the fact that compositing an image or a person on a green screen does not key as easily. Advance topic I know, but thats where the 4:1:1 comes into play.

A good setup would be to get a JVC SVHS unit with the built in TBC and DNR correction to help clean up the tape. An external may help too in addition to get as clean as a signal you can get. What the others have suggested too is good advice as well.

VTM

[LordVader]

i'm not planning to do bluescreen or greenscreen compositions, but i don't know if any of you has notice that in some cases where pure RED is available in the image, it gets some interpolating problems and the jaggies are very visible.

Of course this only happens with DV codec. Is sad.... the fact that you have to correct interpolation problems after doing a capture that is supossed to be a perfect representation of the source.


8) pure masterminds here ( pretty cool )

[trevlac]

i'm not planning to do bluescreen or greenscreen compositions, but i don't know if any of you has notice that in some cases where pure RED is available in the image, it gets some interpolating problems and the jaggies are very visible.

Of course this only happens with DV codec. Is sad.... the fact that you have to correct interpolation problems after doing a capture that is supossed to be a perfect representation of the source.

I have read the hubub about this ... I can't say I have noticed in my footage ... so my comments are not based upon seriously researching this.

- DVCPro is a professional DV format. It uses 4:1:1 for both PAL and NTSC

- The chroma bandwidth of 4:1:1 is about 1.5MHz. For comparison, BCast is < 1MHz (NTSC), VHS is about 1/2MHz ... in fact, most analog formats including LazerDisk are lower than 4:1:1

The point is ... you should not have color transitions that can not be stored in the sample rate of DV.

- If a resample can 'fix' the problem, then it seems to me that the Decoder is at fault, not the encoder. When asked for RGB, the decoder should be able to do the exact same type of interpolation as any fix.

--------

PS: I'm not saying there is not some issues with DV ... it's just that you should find an example from VHS of this problem before you worry about it.


Here is a thread where a rather knowledgeable chap is trying to prove NTSC DV does not have a problem with VHS. He also was proving me wrong when I said DV was a better compression than mjpeg. Of course he may have faked his tests.

http://virtualdub.everwicked.com/index.php?act=ST&f=3&t=7662&s=91368861ee913efadfbc5b48380c3682

[lordsmurf]

On perfect sources, 4:1:1 makes me cringe.
The dream of 4:4:4 is a bit much though.
What you truly want is to preserve the 4:2:2 as best you can. This is how many of the current analog formats exists.

It's bad enough you go to 4:2:0 later for DVD MPEG-2, but at least that one is not so noticeable. What you notice most are the first two x:x:x

(EDIT: referring back to DV 4:1:1 now It does cause severe issues on red and green. I notice this mostly on animation, not so much live footage.

And actually, DVCPRO50 and DV50 uses 4:2:2 to retain higher quality and for better editing.

For those that like to read:
http://www.adobe.com/motion/events/pdfs/dvtour.pdf

Some of this is the fault of the DV codecs too. It can be better or worse, depending on the hardware codecs and the software codecs.

Be careful what you read from Canopus too. They make some great products, but tend to blow a lot of smoke (up the consumer's posterior) as far as I'm concerned.

My biggest gripe with 4:1:1 DV (NTSC) is that it often causes red to bleed. I thought VHS was supposed to be the end of color bleeding? I've seen some evil interlace/color artifacts from DV footage too. Yuck, yuck, yuck. I'm not upgrading until it's truly an all-around upgrade.

Here's a decent discussion over at Matrox forums:
http://forum.matrox.com/rt2000/Forum8/HTML/000052.html

This is an interesting quote:

An important point to note is that if the two schemes 4:2:0 and 4:1:1 are cascaded the result will be 4:1:0 the worst possible solution.

I won't pretend I know how to interpret that, but could it mean that taking 4:1:1 to 4:2:0 is bad for your video health? (ie, DV -> DVD). Don't know. Or maybe the other way, from DVD to DV again.

Trevlac, I won't argue the MHZ values on anything, but I'm not sure the transition is smooth from one format to the next. If it were a simple matter of math, we'd not have all these artifact issues. (More reasons I value practice over theory.) Some of these artifacts may be more dependent on HOW and WHEN the compression takes places during DV compression. At any rate, they're there.

[lordsmurf]

Oh, as far as dropped frames...

On the VIDEO side: TBC, good VCR, good cables to make clean signal.

Then on the DIGITAL side: fast CPU, ample RAM, good software and codecs, fast hard drives (7200rpm IDE should be fine, RAID can be nice too somtimes).

Clean signal and speed = no dropped frames.
http://www.digitalfaq.com/capture/droppedframes.htm

[racerxnet]

MPEG strictly specifies the YCbCr color space, not YUV or YIQ or YPbPr
or YDrDb or any other color difference variations. Regardless of any
bitstream parameters, MPEG-1 and MPEG-2 Video Main Profile specify
4:2:0 chroma ratio, where the color difference channels (Cb, Cr) have
half the "resolution" or sample grid density in both the horizontal and
vertical direction with respect to luminance.

MPEG-2 High Profile includes an option for 4:2:2 and 4:4:4 coding.
Applications for this are likely to be broadcasting and contribution
equipment.

CCIR 601 (60 Hz) image Chroma sub-sampling factors
format Y Cb, Cr Vertical Horizontal
----- --------- ---------- -------- ----------
4:4:4 720 x 480 720 x 480 none none
4:2:2 720 x 480 360 x 480 none 2:1
4:2:0 720 x 480 360 x 240 2:1 2:1
4:1:1 720 x 480 720 x 120 none 4:1
4:1:0 720 x 480 180 x 120 4:1 4:1

3:2:2, 3:1:1, and 3:1:0 are less common variations.

1. 4:2:0 picture memory requirements are 33% less than the size of
4:2:2 pictures. MPEG-1 decoder are able to snugly fit all 3 SIF
pictures (1 reconstruction & display, 2 prediction) into 512 KBytes of
buffer space. CCIR 601 is a tighter fit into 2 Mbytes.

2. The subjective difference between 4:2:0 and 4:2:2 is minimal, when
considering consumer display equipment and distribution compression ratios.

3. Vertical decimation increases compression efficiency by reducing syntax
overhead posed in an 8 block (4:2:0) macroblock structure.

4. You're compressing the hell out of the video signal, so what possible
difference can the 0:0:2 high-pass make?

Interlacing and the 62 microsecond gap between successively scanned lines
introduces some discontinuities, but most of this can be alleviated through
pre-processing.


8)

[lordsmurf]

racerxnet ... no argument from me on those 4 points. Very sound. 8)

I'd have to refer back to some books, but I believe the SONY format (some of the Betas) are the primary users of the 3:x:x flavors.

[FOO]

4:2:0 makes the most sense to me, because it decimates
equally in the H and V directions (on the picture)

[NightWing]

Been testing the ADS Pyro AV link with the latest 3.0 firmware. To replace an DC10+ PCI card.

It been reported it has a software based TBC and up the color level. It seems to do just that.

Tried various tapes of various quality and grade ranging from excelent to horrible! The unit has not droped one frame so far. I am looking around for a tape I have that is drop city but cant find it right now. I also have some beta tapes from 1977 { Yep that far back! } will trythem as soon as I can confirm the old unit wont eat the tapes.

PS; The color reminded me of the old Kodak Ectracrom film.

[LordVader]

i don't know if any of you have tried the DV codec that comes with "liquid edition" , i think is a dv codec from panasonic or something like that.

anyway..... this codec is supposed to be one of the best in their kind.

i mean come on, it comes with pinnacle applications ( this is really serious )

i've done some captures with this codec and i get some BIG squares, at high motion scenes, that i don't get with mjpeg. I don't know if i'm blind, but my videos look blurrier when captured to DV format, also the colors are very different from the source.

All the advantage of DV is that maybe is familar with most of the NLE systems, and we can't compete with that. DV is easy to handle, and we know it.

but i'm obssesed with the fact that something is not right with the image.

Like many of you said, DV is enought to VHS, but not enought for many other projects, for example ( directv source )

i'm so affected by this, i don't want to use 26 different methods for video capturing. I just want to use 1 method. ( the BEST ).

[fmctm1sw]

A different VCR may help. I have a Sony SLV-700HF that does a very good job. Don't know why, it just does. Has noise reduction too....

[NightWing]

Have had good luck with the old DC10+ capturing at 1/2 its horz ( 320 ) but full 480 vert. But as always it depends on the quality and condition of the tape.

Wondering if you have tried a standard video stablizer in line. Not to do Macrovision but to keep the signal stable so to speak.

Also how old is the vcr? Have you played a lot of tapes on it? The heads do wear out over time and some times will degrade do to ravages of time. Actualy had a set of sony beta heads degrade from just age!

One of the test I tried on the ADS Pyro was capturing a scrambled signal. It did not descramble the video but recorder it without droped frames of all things. Also I have notist on some solid color background with the ADS encoder. A kind of noise compared to none if capture with the DC10. Not a major problem but just noted.

PS: What ocures when you capture from a better source. Best is from a sat or a local channel running some sporting event.