Why multiple tools vs a suite?

[psklenar]

Last weekend a friend brought over his new Pinnical Moviebox DV and a PC and we captured my laserdisc of "Song of the South" to a pair of AVIs (about 22GB total) using his Pinnical Studeo 8. Since he wanted to take his PC home that evening, we copied the two files across my home network to my P4 where I used Nero 6 Suite to trim the beginning and end of both files, combine them, author & burned to disk. The end result is indistiguishable (to my eyes) from the laserdisk.

This has convinced me that it works. So I'm ordering a Canopus ADVC card and am rebuilding an old (P3/1.4GHz) workstation for the express purpose of backing up my laserdisc collection to DVD. All of the guides & forum threads for this sort of conversion recommend using a whole slew of different programs for the different steps in this effort. Why? Based on what I saw of his Studio 8 tool, I have no reason to doubt it'd have created my final disk without problem. And I'm pretty sure my Nero 6 could have captured just as well ... so ...

Why use a whole suite of different tools instead of a single package designed to work together from the get-go? What's the benefit? What am I missing? I've searched this site for ages. The guides are well written. I think I understand HOW to do these things fairly well ... but I can't figure out WHY. I mean, if I have an AVI with both the video and sound and everything is in sync, why should I use one of these other tools to split them apart and then yet another one to put them back together?

Thanks,
pat----

[reboot]

Because most of the tools mentioned are free, Pinnacle is NOT!

[sacajaweeda]

Individual results are subjective and opinions will vary. Go with whatever works for you and gets you what you want. I'm sold on my method of using a combination of VirtualDub, Cinemacraft Encoder, Avisynth and DVD Lab, personally. It gets me fantastic results in a fraction of the time a setup like yours and many others like yours takes.

[psklenar]

Because most of the tools mentioned are free, Pinnacle is NOT!

actually, most of the tools recomended *do* have a cost if you go beyond 30 days. I've not priced all of them out yet, but I suspect that if you add them up that they're not going to total up to much less than something like Pinnacle 8.

Individual results are subjective and opinions will vary. Go with whatever works for you and gets you what you want. I'm sold on my method ...

I'm glad you're sold on it. I've not spent a penny yet. I'm trying to understand the benefits of one way vs the other. I want to make sure what money I must spend is spent wisely. I constantly read "do it my way, it works for me" (and they are all usually somewhat different) but never *WHY* one way is considered more reliable or better than the others.

This is the "Newbie's" forum, so I thought this would be the best place to ask for an explination. Perhaps not.

pat----

[sacajaweeda]

It's all individual preference. What one person finds acceptable may be total crap to another. Some people want a handy "all in one" application that does it all. Some people couldn't do this without a program like that. Everybody is different. Some people (like me) want more versatility/control over the process to fine tune and optimize results. Some people are fine with generic pre-fab menus. Others want to be more creative and do stuff you don't see on DVDs authored with canned menus. Whatever floats your boat.

[sacajaweeda]

Individual results are subjective and opinions will vary. Go with whatever works for you and gets you what you want. I'm sold on my method ...

I'm glad you're sold on it. I've not spent a penny yet. I'm trying to understand the benefits of one way vs the other. I want to make sure what money I must spend is spent wisely.

I came up with my "system" just like everybody else. I took the time to use a bunch of the stuff that was either free or had free trial periods. That's why they have them. So you can give it a go and see if it's for you or not. I've paid for plenty of software, too. Some of it I still use for certain things, some I simply regret buying altogether. The Pinnacle stuff you're using in fact. I've even bought their hardware in the past (and Dazzle's before that) Adobe Premiere is another I've used and discarded in favor of something else.

You're doing good having not spent a penny yet as you say. Keep trying the free stuff and the stuff with free trials and you're sure to find something that works for you.

[pijetro]

Sacajaweeda must be my long lost Siamese twin, because that's the same thing i do..

One of the reasons that we go this way is a) Speed, b) Free (well almost), and c) Total Control over every facet.

A lot of these tools are still remnants of when skill was still involved in ripping a DVD, so in that regard, the remnants of the same users are still around also..Heck, i still pronounce it VCDHelp....Remember that format :P ?

My friend also uses Studio 8, and since he didn't go through the growing pains that we did, his questions get answered by people like us, who understand a bit better. You know, formats, authouring, compression, quality, etc....

The advantage of going our route, is that, when we do get the chance to afford the nice toys, like suites, our only learning curve will be the application itself..
I also assume that LINUX users are probably the biggest supporters of alot of this freeware stuff, although, that's just a guess...

Take care...

[Roderz]

I treat it like I do my hifi system,
which is all seprates and all different makes, because not one maker can do every component to the quality I want and at the price I want to pay

Just my personel pref..

Whats that saying Jack of all trades......

[aguillon]

I agree with Roderz.

You will find that no single app can do everything rite. Maybe if your needs are reasonably simple, you can; in which case stick with what you got.

But one day you find you want to add subtitles, you want to make better looking menus, you want to add a second sound track to your DVD, etc. And guess what? Your all in one suite does not cut the mustard anymore...

While you may not need it at all, I would suggest you look through the user feed backs in the software section - you can see that users like different softwares for different reasons, and why certain users swear by some softs while others don't - one missing feature makes all the difference in the world to some.

[psklenar]

Thank you all for the later replies ... they're definitely more helpful. Part of the reason for the interest in a comprehensive suite is that work is complex enough and life is busy enough that I just don't go around looking for ways to add complexity unless there's some tangible benefit. I dislike the concept of work for works sake. It's ... inefficient.

And yes, I well remember VCD's ... in fact, I've never updated my bookmarks and still access this site via vcdhelp.com. I just never actually got around to creating my own VCD's and therefore never learned the nuance's of the huge variety of tools out there.

Anyhow, some of the key benefits I believe I understand from the latter posts are ... More control over the individual steps of the conversion process for those times where the suite's range of settings is inadequate and the ability to add detail/funcitonallity that is unlikely to be included in the more affordable "suites" (e.g.; subtitling). Can anyone provide any other specific examples of benefits?

One of the specific questions I've got, and I believe I mentioned in my original post, is - *if* you have an AVI with audio locked in sync (as captured by a Canopus ADVC), what is the benefit to demuxing the audio from the video and converting and then remerging everything? I'd think (newbie lack of experience speaking here ) that breaking audio & video into different files, converting and recombining would increase the chance of getting things out of sync. So what's the benefit of doing it this way? Why is it recommended so often?

Thanks for not giving up on a rookie,
pat----

[petar]

*if* you have an AVI with audio locked in sync (as captured by a Canopus ADVC), what is the benefit to demuxing the audio from the video and converting and then remerging everything?

The AVI file in your case carries a DV stream which is approx. 3.6MBytes/s or in simple words around 13G for an hour of play. DV is very good for capturing and recording realtime but not for storage (you can maybe fit 20 min on a DVDR). So you need to convert (to MPEG1, 2, 4, RM or whatever that suits your need, player and media). To convert you need to separate the video from the audio because each one has its own way. Unless there's a problem with the authoring (muxing) application there shouldn't be any sync problems.

[bugster]

Anyhow, some of the key benefits I believe I understand from the latter posts are ... More control over the individual steps of the conversion process for those times where the suite's range of settings is inadequate and the ability to add detail/funcitonallity that is unlikely to be included in the more affordable "suites" (e.g.; subtitling). Can anyone provide any other specific examples of benefits?

One of the main benefits of using mutiple tools IMHO is keeping control over the quality of the final product. In the past one of the main problems with "all-in-one" tools was the quality (or lack of) of the included mpeg encoder. This is less of a problem with the most recent tools as they tend to bundle encoders licensed from the main player, notable mainconcept or Canopus. This isn't true for all cases though so do your research.

Its not just mpeg encoders though. By using an all-in-one tool you are limiting your options. It may do what you need right now but could limit you in the future if you embrace this hobby and wish to take it further or simply become a bit more creative with your DVD authoring (for instance).

I am not agianst all-in-one packages, they have a very important place in the market, you just need to be sure they meet your requirements before purchasing.

[sacajaweeda]

"All-in-one" apps are like training wheels in the realm of video.

[psklenar]

... To convert you need to separate the video from the audio because each one has its own way. Unless there's a problem with the authoring (muxing) application there shouldn't be any sync problems.

ah, okay. Thanks, that finally explains WHY they should be separated.

One of the main benefits of using mutiple tools IMHO is keeping control over the quality of the final product. In the past one of the main problems with "all-in-one" tools was the quality (or lack of) of the included mpeg encoder. This is less of a problem with the most recent tools as they tend to bundle encoders licensed from the main player, notable mainconcept or Canopus. This isn't true for all cases though so do your research. ...

Thank you ... Like you say, I need to do my research. But there's so many aspects of this process and so many opinions ... one of large issues has been figuring out *what* to research. Encoders are now high on my list.

Thank you both very much,
pat----

[ktnwin]

"If you only know how to use a hammer than everything look like a nail."
The same thing here with video SW tools.

I bought Studio 8 but also bought neoDVD Plus, and also use TMPGenc, IFOEdit, VOBEdit, etc... for different purposes.

a) Studio 8 is great for capturing, editing in DV format. It can only encode audio to LPCM which eats up a lot of DVD space. Therefore you cannot fit more video time without sacrifycing quality. On top of that, encoding time takes forever.

b) neoDVD Plus is great at converting AVI to MPEG-2 / DVD in no time, since audio is encoded to AC-3, you can fit more high quality video.
However, it's menu structure and # chapters is very limited (5 chapters max). The max high quality video I can fit on one DVD-R with this tool is 93 mins.

c) TMPGEnc: slow but give me more control on how to encode the video. I can fit 3+ hours of excellent video quality on one DVD-R.

So far, there is no single software that can give me the best of all these features:
1) FAST, FAST , FAST
2) high quality video
3) lot of video hours on a single DVD-R
4) flexible menu and chaptering capabilities
and the last
5) relative cheap

That's all we are looking for, right ?

[psklenar]

"If you only know how to use a hammer than everything look like a nail." The same thing here with video SW tools.

hey! i resemble that remark!

...
a) Studio 8 is great for capturing, editing in DV format. ...
b) neoDVD Plus is great at converting AVI to MPEG-2 / DVD in no time, ...
c) TMPGEnc: slow but give me more control ...

Thank you, this sort of pluses vs minuses is what I was hoping to learn with this thread.

1) FAST, FAST , FAST
2) high quality video
3) lot of video hours on a single DVD-R
4) flexible menu and chaptering capabilities
and the last
5) relative cheap

That's all we are looking for, right ?

yep. Although considering that I'm looking to archive my LD collection in as high a quality as possible ... I think I'd put my preferences in order as #2, 5 and 1 with 3 & 4 as "nice to haves". But that's just me.

Again, thank you very much for your comments!!!

pat----

[trolltuning]

@sacajaweeda
I use pretty much the same tools as you do but I wondered if you could comment on when you choose Virtual Dub for a task as opposed to Avisynth and vise versa. I'm not sure I always make the best choice here?

[reboot]

#2, Canopus Procoder, which is in direct conflict with #5 at ~$700.
Happy medium may be Mainconcept, with good video/audio output, and much cheaper.
Mainconcept also fits #1 IMHO, as the fastest of the bunch.
#3 is dependant on bitrate, not application.
#4 my preference is Nero Vision Express, I know others will disagree. Check out dvdlab as well.

[sacajaweeda]

@sacajaweeda
I use pretty much the same tools as you do but I wondered if you could comment on when you choose Virtual Dub for a task as opposed to Avisynth and vise versa. I'm not sure I always make the best choice here?

As for what task to do with either tool; AviSynth or VDub; I pretty much do everything with AviSynth. I use VirtualDubMod to do my scene chopping and to preview changes/filters that I apply, and also for extracting the WAV audio to be converted to AC3, but I encode video with Cinemacraft Encoder almost exclusively and you pretty much have to use AVISynth with it, so I just find it easier to work with a script doing lots of different stuff. I do a lot of repetitive stuff like TV shows or football games so I have a folder full of "template" scripts that I use for different stuff so I just copy whichever script to wherever my source file is and go from there.