Panasonice E50 video quality....

[ejai]

I've just received my Panasonic E-50 today and already I feel the need to send it back. I also own the E-30 and it's quality is superior to the E50. I was wondering if anyone who has one notices the same problems I do.

Let me start by saying the video on the E-50 looks as if there are too many colors for it to handle. In other words instead of seeing smooth video color it looks like a computer monitor set to 16,000 colors instead of 16,000,000.

In the darker areas I seem to see Lines indicating the change in color instead of a smooth transition. My E-30 shows smooth color with hardly any noise and the gradient areas are very smooth.

I was wondering if anyone else is noticing this problem, and if so what did they do to solve. it. The only reason I bought the E-50 was for the fix it has for the black level bug. Now I'm not too sure if it was worth my time and money.


Ernest

[Erwin]

Well, Ejai, I have read several of your post and you seem to be one of the most knowledgeable people when it comes to the Panasonic DVD Recorders, so, I would take your oppinion pretty seriously. There is one side of me that is kind of dissappointed b/c I was probably going to get the E50 later (when it's cheaper), but now that I see your post, I am kind of glad I still have the E30. I still think that Panasonic VCRs help the black bug situation. They don't completely eliminate it, but I have done side by side comparisions with my other VCRs and the Panasonic VCRs give a better balance with black levels.

[ejai]

Hi Erwin, Thanks for the kind words.

I just happened to check out some posts on the AVS Forum concerning the same thing I noticed and other people have noticed the same thing. They state that this is a chroma issue. This causes contours of colors instead of a smooth gradient change in color.

I must admit one thing even with that small defect the video is quite nice. The reason I say that now is that if you view the disk in another player other than the E50 it looks alot better. I read another post on the forum that stated to try this, and I did, and it does look better. Still every now and then a scene that has similar colors will cause a slight chroma effect but nothing to take away from the video.

The color is much more vibrant than the E-30, and the black level bug is no longer a problem. After re-evaluating both machines I decided to go with the E-50.

I must say, SHAME ON PANASONIC for releasing 2 machines with bugs that are so easy to detect, yet they marketed the machines anyway. This just goes to prove that quality control is not number one on most companies minds, profit is.

I'm still testing both machines.

[FulciLives]

Hi Erwin, Thanks for the kind words.

I just happened to check out some posts on the AVS Forum concerning the same thing I noticed and other people have noticed the same thing. They state that this is a chroma issue. This causes contours of colors instead of a smooth gradient change in color.

I must admit one thing even with that small defect the video is quite nice. The reason I say that now is that if you view the disk in another player other than the E50 it looks alot better. I read another post on the forum that stated to try this, and I did, and it does look better. Still every now and then a scene that has similar colors will cause a slight chroma effect but nothing to take away from the video.

The color is much more vibrant than the E-30, and the black level bug is no longer a problem. After re-evaluating both machines I decided to go with the E-50.

I must say, SHAME ON PANASONIC for releasing 2 machines with bugs that are so easy to detect, yet they marketed the machines anyway. This just goes to prove that quality control is not number one on most companies minds, profit is.

I'm still testing both machines.

Damn man ... just when it seemed that the PANASONIC line of stand alone DVD recorders were finally "complete" and "error free" they go and screw up something else.

I was considering buying the DMR-E80 when it came out (for the fact that it has a HDD built-in) but now I'm thinking I will wait for the new TOSHIBA with the HDD.

This blows chunks

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

P.S.
Hey ejai ... any chance you can post a link to the thread or threads that discuss this over at the AVS FORUM message board? Thanks

[ejai]

Most people are not as picky and some of us are, and those who haven't experienced the E-30 will find very little dissatisfaction with the E-50.

I must admit while Panasonic has streamed down the E-50, yet I miss some of the features that the E-30 still has. For those of us who don't have the money for a five thousand dollar unit, all we are asking for is a capture device that lives up to it's billing.

Features mean nothing when the basic reasons we buy a unit doesn't work properly.

[Erwin]

It seems like if one is recording cartoons such as "The Simpsons", it's not as noticeable. B/c I did detech a difference in video quality in a movie I recorded (it wasn't bad, but noticeable). I never see a change in the Simpsons and that may be because cartoons are generally "bright and colorful" to begin with and they stay that way, whereas, a live action movie has "real" fleshtones and requires more millions of different colors that are not found in cartoons. Good thing to, b/c I am just about finished with all of the seasons (40+ DVDs so far, and even if they are slightly faded, that's just too bad b/c there is no way I am doing them all over again ). I have watched my Simpsons on other DVD players and they look fine, but when I recorded "Regarding Henry" (a movie not yet on DVD), it showed the black level bug which I think may prove my theory. I may sell my E30 on Ebay and get the E50 later b/c I haven't started my home movies yet and they don't need that black level bug if I can help it. So, basically, what it comes down to is this. Cartoons and some TV broadcasts appear to turnout OK on the E30, but movies recorded from VHS will present this little bug we don't like much more.

[ejai]

Hi Erwin,

I've been testing both units all weekend and found the picture quality of the E-50 better than the E-30 even with the image oontour lines. The contour lines were the reason I felt the E-30 was a better unit. After further testing I'm inclined to think differently.

I did a few tests using my AVT-8710 TBC with color adjustments to mimic the color settings on the E-30 to look just like the E-50. I've found that if you attempt to darken the image the contour lines also appear in the E-30. This explains why the contour lines are visible in the E-50.

One good thing I noticed about the E-50 is that it not only darkens the video it also sharpens and improves the contrast quality. Most tapes I put through it look better in reguards to color and contrast than the originals.

The contour lines seem to be more noticeable on the E-50 than on any standalone dvd player.

I also tried cartoons and found that they show hardly any contour lines, I think because cartoons are basically one color seperated by another, whereas human images have gradient tones and blends.

All-n-all I decided to keep the E-50 and will wait to see what other recording devices come out in the near future.

[Erwin]

One thing that I noticed last night when I was playing back some of my Simpsons episodes that I created from E30. I have been playing them back on my ProScan DVD player. In a review Robert George (a well known reviewer to Home Theater Enthusiasts) stated that "this player will not display the 0 IRE part of a PLUGE pattern."

"The ProScan PS8680Z "

The Panasonics, Pioneers, and others have this level level of darkness (0 IRE). And that is exactly right. I pulled out my Pioneer and played them on it and the DVDs looked much more vibrant and that darks were more accurate. The same story for playback on the Curtis Mathes CMD500. Of course, my Panasonic S35 played them accurately as well. It seems as though having the right DVD player will play the discs the way they are supposed to look or close. The ProScan is just not one of them due to it's lack of 0 IRE level.
I remember buying my first Panasonic A110 (2nd generation) in 1998 when it was a big deal to have the "dts" badge on a player. One thing I loved about the player was it's nice level of darkness when viewing widescreen movies. The movies, to me, just look better when the black bars a deep black rather than an almost charcoal grey. Several DVD players out there have different levels of darkness (some more dark, some less). But I think this is why the early Panasonics have this bug. The recordings have the darkness which are found in Panasonics. If it would have had the darkness level of Sony DVD player, we probably would NOT be in this mess b/c , while I don't care too much for Sony DVD players, they give a well balanced level of darkness that's not too dark and not too bright. The darkness level in Panasonics are usually very rich, but some people like it that way (I do). Pioneer DVD players have a very similiar level of darkness which is why my DVDs look better on that player than the ProScan.
Again, I am just glad that it doesn't effect cartoons like it does live action movies or shows. Many people haven't brought this up, but dubbing VHS to VHS will depend on the player/s too because of the display quality. I noticed that Wal-Mart now carries the E50....

[Erwin]

To get more of an idea of all this "brightness/darkness" level stuff. I created a simple color example that shows the basic difference between the ProScan and the Panasonic.

[Erwin]

There we go, I finally got my Panasonic/ProScan Example to upload

[ejai]

Very informative, thanks for the illustrations. I agree I like the more deeper dark areas than the mid range greys. That is one of the reasons I finally went with the E-50 over the theE-30.

The colors were more rich, I have made serveral recordings and noticed they look much better on dvd players other than the E-50 (the unit that created them).

Just one of those strange things in life.

ej

[Phoenix]

I guess nobody ever noticed my post a while back about this same situation. It is not an error in the player but the settings are wrong.

The reason the E-30 black level was set to lighter (7.5ire) is because most north american brodacasts are set that way. So if you input a signal (sat, cable etc.) with the 7.5 setting and record it and output it at 7.5ire then the picture will look almost identical to the original.

With the E-50 the black level is set to darker on the inputs (0ire) and the s-video output is set to lighter (if I remember correctly).

When I first noticed the problem you described I exchanged it three times and was about to exchange it for an E-30 when I discovered that it was a black level input and black level output setting that was causing the problem.

I set the input to ligheter and the S-video output to darker and the problem was gone. I know this because I re-recorded a scene that showed the problem before and it was gone, no different then the original.

Know you might ask then why do I need black level control if it causes this problem. Well it is their to match the input correctly before you record.

When I recorded the Starwars trilogy from laserdisc using S-video I had the inputs set to darker because that seemed to be what the laserdisc was inputing. I had a perfect copy that looked good in any player without any signs of the croma errors discussed.

But when I record from satelite I have to reverse the setting to get a proper recording without any croma errors etc..


I am know extremly happy with the unit and am glad I did not change it for the E-30.



P.S. ---- I hope this made sense and helped...

8) 8) 8) 8) 8)

[ejai]

Thanks Phoenix for your suggestion. I will try it tonight and will write back in this thread what my findings are.

Before I forget, Phoenix what setting did you leave the black level selection on, darker or lighter?

All help is appreciated.

[Erwin]

What are the settings available (dark level) on the E50? What are some of the features you miss when compared to the E30, ejai?

[Erwin]

Oh yeah, I forgot to ask. How does the player seem in comparison to E30 in the following areas: speed (recognizing a dvd-r/dvd-ram/dvd disc), menu setup, finalization time, the time it takes when you push the "stop" button, and it's button setup? Do you plan to redo all of your E30 DVD-R discs? How many DVD-Rs did you burn with the E30? I burned 70, I believe. I know, I am full of questions . Thanks again ejai.

[Phoenix]

Hi Ejai,

I left the settings as follows:

Input : Lighter

S-video output : darker

Also FYI I recommend viewing broadcast TV through the S-video out and not the component (progressive). It seems that regular broadcast TV regardless of source looks dark and soft through component output. I first thought it was the E-50 but tried recordings played back on my Denon 1600 and had the same results. So if you want to get as close a color match and quality match to the orignal braodcast input you should watch it through the S-video only.


P.S. I also tried the above on a pioneer elite burner and had the same results with S-video compared to component.


8) 8) 8) 8) 8)

[ejai]

Thanks Phoenix,
I will try what you've stated.

Erwin, well if I remember correctly (I'm not at home as I write this) but the E-50 has one out whereas the E-30 has 2. The placement of buttons on the controllers have changed somewhat. I prefer the layout that was originally on the E-30, also the FUNCTION button is no longer on the front of the E-50 casing (Ifi it is, I can't find it) and if I remember correctly the ENTER button is also removed from the case.

These gripes aren't major but can be annoying if you are familiar with the E-30. You will definately need the controller when it comes to using the E-50.

Everything else seems to be the same, the speed the recorder takes to identify the disk being used is still the same. I've burnt at least 80 disks on the E-30 and I don't plan to redo them (might be because I threw away the tapes). If I could I would redo some of the videos.

Two channel DVD-Audio support has been added, It's basically the same box as the E30 with slight changes. I must admit I do like the darker more richer color video.

At first I was going to send it back, but now it has grown on me.

EJ

[ejai]

Well I tried what Phoenix said and this is what I found

The video was lighter than the original, very much similar to the E-30's black level bug. I noticed that once I changed the input to lighter I was only creating the problem I had with the E30. Also by changing the output to darken (using the the s-video output) to view the video I was only fooling the E50 to making the light video seem darker.

Once I placed it in another dvd player the true video colors were exposed. I know this because I recorded a video segment for 30 secs using the settings Phoenix stated, and then I recorded another 30 secs immediately after that segment using the original settings.

I actually saw the video go from dark to light and lose some contrast and color depth. I must agree that the video contours were less noticable but for me I like the dark contrasts and vibrant colors.

I've noticed that the contours are very noticable when recording the video but when playing back on another dvd player the video is much better.

My conclusion is that I will stick with the original settings, I do agree that the video settings Phoenix spoke about are a bit better than the E30 but not close enough to the original for me.

Thanks anyway Phoenix, I'm sure some people might like your settings better.

ej

[Phoenix]

No problem ejai.

Also it does make a difference on what TV and color settings you use on that TV. Also the quality or type of wires help two.

I use cinema quest silver wires for all my video feeds and let me tell you it makes all of the difference in the world.

For my particular setup my settings not only get rid of the croma pattern but give the final broadcast picture run through the E-50 a accurate representation of the original source. I would say about 99.5% accurate.

But if I input a laserdisc or a VCR I need to set it back to default to get the best results. So I would pat Panasonic on the back for adding the black level adjustment because it gives a much better flexability for different scenarios.


8) 8) 8) 8)

[ejai]

Thanks again Phoenix and I do agree.

Since I'm using Direct TV and VHS as my source the black level works better for me. The source material and setups do make a difference.

I have to admit I do like the quality of the E50's video over the E30 (a big change from my first post), and if Erwin is listening, do check out the E50 but buy it from a place that will allow you to return it after a week or so. I'm sure that is all the time you will need to evaluate it for yourself.

Also I would like to hear your opinion as well.

Thanks,
ej

[Erwin]

"buy it from a place that will allow you to return it after a week or so. I'm sure that is all the time you will need to evaluate it for yourself. "

Yeah, that's why I was relieved to finally see it at Wal-Mart which probably has the most flexible return policy (a little too flexible though). If I ran a major retail store, there is no way I would allow a return on item that did not have a box when consumer brought it back unless it was sold that way.

[handyguy]

E30 also has a few recording modes, you also got to look at the options for them. Try for example, changing the mode from AUTO to Fixed.

There are also numerous playback settings that reflect how you see light & brightness & sharpness. Got to try them all cause you can see the effect right away on the screen as you do them.

I used High8 & s-video & the recording looks exactly the same as the original.

E30 has a lot of inputs & outputs, which is pretty cool.

[ejai]

I do agree that there are more inputs and outputs on the E30. I wished Panasonic had kept the setup the same on the E50 as it is on the E30.

I don't understand why they took them out.

ej

[dfgh11]

I have an E50... mine seems fine

[next]

Get an E-30 if you can.

The E-50 and E-80 are a stripped down versions of the E-30.

The black level question was over hyped.

[scottymac]

Get an E-30 if you can.

The E-50 and E-80 are a stripped down versions of the E-30.

The black level question was over hyped.

DING! DING! DING!

We have a winner for the best post I've read for days contest!



I would also like to add that the E50 is not just a stripped down version of the E30, but a re-designed model, containing cheaper components to keep costs down, and profits up.

And I echo your over hyped statement. I have seen E30 produced disks on many different DVD players/CRTs/RPTVs and have not seen the "washed out" look that some oscilloscope junkies have noticed. I have, however, noticed that many people have improperly calibrated HT setups.

[next]

Never noticed the black bug on the E30 that so many mention.

[ejai]

In order to notice the bug you have to play the recorded video on another player other than the e30 recorder.

Since I've bought the e50 I was able to really see the difference. I re-recorded a couple of the videos I recorded using the e30 with the e50 and yes there is a noticable difference.

The e50 video looked more colorful and the dark areas were more darker giving more of a contrast to the light areas. I wish I could record the videos over but I threw most of them away (also a little thing called cost).

ej

[FulciLives]

Hello

The "black level" bug is well documented. It has nothing to do with user error. The older models (such as the E-20 and E-30 as well as the HS2) would default to a black IRE level that is only correct for PAL or JAPANESE NTSC. The level is NOT correct for USA NTSC. Since the units were made by a Japanese company this BUG made it through until people here in the USA started to notice it. The newer models (such as the E-50, E-60 and E80) have selectable black level IRE settings depending on your source. It is selectable by the user unlike the older models.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[Scootershaka]

I completely agree with Phoenix about the black level input. I have directv and after sending it through my EM-50 S-video line 1 input, I noticed some real funky patterns in the video. Very annoying, not sure how to describe the picture but maybe it's the chroma thing. I'd switch to my receiver video input for satellite and notice a difference. My normal satellite through receiver looked fine. Not sure but it drove me crazy as I tried to figure out why the picture changed. After trouble shooting what seemed to be for hours, I made it to the black level input. The default being darker in and lighter out. By changing it to lighter in and darker out the satellite picture was identical to the receiver satellite input picture. Now I'm ready to record. Thanks for concurring with this Phoenix! I think they should of made it more clear in the manual, but as with anything, you just have to keep trouble shooting till it works.
If anyone knows how to make chapter selections for recording a program onto a DVD-R let me know. I want to able to record a video cassette and be able to jump to scenes like a normal DVD. Any suggestions?