VHS player output quality.

Originally Posted by Cole

Therefore is getting a VCR with S-Video output (to attach to the S-Video input on my ADVC-50) really worth getting to improve capture quality or is the gain in quality insignificant and not worth the cost of the VCR.

I see only a slight difference between video captured from RCA or S-Video on the same VCR. The S-Video produces a slightly sharper image. Overall though using a good VCR will improve captures. S-video usually only comes on better VCR's.....

Dixons may not sell them any more but plenty of places do. JVC are well known for making S-VHS VCRs which output S-Video. Have a look at http://www.empiredirect.co.uk/content/products/details/html/JVC-HRS5975.htm. If you don't like the idea of ordering over the net, you will probably be able to get one from Comet, Miller Brothers, John Lewis or maybe even Argos.

I don't know anything about those specific models but just beacuse they are old doesn't make them bad. Some specific models of older VCR's are sought after. Have you tried cleaning them? That's a little bit out of my realm but I would think it might be a good idea to give it a try.

Originally Posted by Cole

I stuck with this one as it doesn't have on screen graphics (triangles in the corner when pressing play, square for stop etc).

Those on screen graphics can usually be turned off on the VCR menu.

Originally Posted by Cole

Thanks, that is useful. What you are saying is that the only way to get better capture overall from non S-VHS VCRs is down to the quality of the VCR itself but not necessarily the output connection.

That's my experience too, The quality of the playback VCR is the most important factor. The difference between S-Video or composite output is marginal, specially if you are using normal VHS tapes. I compared the s-video and composite signal from my SVHS JVC with a good tuner signal through my TV-card and DV-passthrough. Really the difference is not that noticeable. More important is to have a clean and stable signal.
I have 2 SVHS machines here (not high end) but for my VHS transfers I still prefer my normal VHS. It just gives me a nicer picture.
Better just try first how your normal VHS machine performs before buying a new one!

Well the second one is definiley the worst of the lot. Appears to me the first is the best but it's hard without doing a side by side comparison.

I went with your first pic -->

In order of rank..

1st - Because, in the end, it held the detail better.

3rd - slight better brightness, more detail (noise) but suffered same
....... w/ detail and distortion.. otherwise, if your "color" is your
....... only disatisfaction, then I would go with this one.

2nd - worse. Too noisy and bad detail/distortion.

I made this conclusion based on my own tool for disecting video/pics.
I widdle tool I cooked up a couple of years ago for just this sort of
stuff. Anyways.

My vote was for your first pic :P

-vhelp 3070

My vote is also for VCR #1. Even on #2 you can see slightly more detail (check the face - left chick - on the JVC you can't almost see the detail of the upper wrinkle).

lordsmurf, first thank you for the grate guides you are putting up - really well done.
As I'm not in US, can you advise on externall TBC corrector different from what you list as your recomendation.
I'm in Japan and here there are many devices mainly refered as video corrector (cost about 150USD).

I want to do something like Cole but as I already have 2-3 VCRs don't want to buy new S-VHS with integrated TBC.

Is it enough to connect TBC device after the VCR and output to the capture card?

If you were reading the thread we were doing a couple of months back, the arguement was whether commercially produced VHS or VHS-C camcorder tapes had enough luminance bandwith to make the S-video connector worthwhile.

This mainly applied to the NTSC system where the 3.58MHz subcarrier (and its sidebands) sit very close to the theoretical perfect 3MHz luminance low pass filter. What we seemed to conclude was that since even the best home recorders low passed luminance considerably below 3MHz, tests showed little difference in cross color distortion using the composite vs. S-Video output for home recorded VHS material. Commercial VHS and VHS-C camcorder tapes were not tested.

For SVHS material which has luminance up to >4MHz, one would expect a signifiant advantage to S-Video connections.

For the PAL system, the VHS issue is much less of a problem since the color subcarrier sits well above luminance at 4.43MHz.

So lordsmurf, are you saying that if for example he use the VCR#1 and external TBC+noise filter there will be no improvement?
What is better if the TBC is integrated in the VCR?

Looks like the Dr Who series. What were they called, the dielect or something like that.


MAK

That's Davros, mate! :P

The quality of that JVC looks fantastic, I just wish these machines were available Down Under!?

Good investment, Cole.

@ racerx

I was thinking Dr. WHO too, yesterday while at work, but I was afraid to
comment on it, case I was wrong. Anyways.
.
.. It was one of my favorite shows back in the mid 90's, when they used
.. to air it on my cable (at the time) and my favor Dr. was the tall one, w/
.. the curly hair, and the young girl - who I thougth was cute.
.
.. when I first saw a this show, I couldn't help but call it crap. It truely
.. was a work of crap. Everything was soo fake, and then some. But. You
.. couldn't help but be drawn to it. show after show, after show after show.
.. I was instantly in love with this show. Then one day, it was taken off
.. the air.

@ cole

Your latest pic is much better. But, I feel that it is so close to your first pic,
but the color is slightly darker (which is what you wanted) and looks good. I
like it.
.
.. I (personaly) would not apply any filters in your editing/encode steps.
.. Not for Dr. WHO. I would encode it at 720 x 480 and highest bitrate you can
.. allow for each of these VHS projects, as they weren't more than an hours long.
.. don't skimp on 352 encode. Give Dr. WHO his respect. (if it is Dr who)
.. but if it ain't dr. who, then it probably could have ben another corney
.. favorite piece of crap I would have loved.

-->

I'm glad things have worked out for you.

Good luck,
-vhelp 3077

ok. I factored into the equation, your comment on the up-comming dvds.

First, I didn't know about each show's length, and your goal to fit the
whole seaon (2:40 min) onto one dvd.

.. I'm a fan of CBR and high bitrate. By now, you know this.

One of the reasons why I was suggesting *not* to perform any filtering
is because your VCR is already doing this for you - hardware'wise
And, since the ADVC-50/100/110 does not filter (inside) as most analog
capture cards do, (the ADVC-300 does filter) In fact, it does the same
basic filtering as what most Analog Capture cards; VCRs; (ie, your JVC)
and some DV CAMS (ie, my TRV22 incorporates a filter step) do.
.
.. Only the ADVC-50/100/110 do not filter the captured source.
.
But, I do realize, that your end goal is to fit all onto one DVD, and I
do understand this now.

Second, ..then, if you still want to fit the whole 2:40 min project onto
one DVD, you could try CQ instead, and *keep* the 720 pix ranther than
bumping it down to 352 pix. You could try one of the Amnon82's or kvcd's
CQ tool that does this CQ figuring out thing. - - that's just an option
and a suggestion (all bias 'ness aside) - - I'm no guru of these "assisting
functions", but its worth looking into, if you can afford it. Or..
.
My suggestion (untested) is to use a CQ at MIN: 4000 and MAX: 9000 (or higher)
and set your CQ at a 72 param value, and see if that fits it. You can
vary the MIN if all else fails. (its a learning curve thing) or maybe
you don't have the time or patiance. Anyways.. It probably will, with room
to spare.., but I'm not sure. I'm throwing ideas around.

-->

.. The tricky part when working out CQ, is to make sure that what
.. ever test encode you do, you have to make sure you don't change
.. anything later on, when you found a reasonble final value for CQ.
.. .
.. In past times, I made the discovery that when working out any given
.. pre (calculating and Encoding) "driving values", that later on, if
.. you use them, in your final encode, but change something else in
.. your chaing of events (ie, AVIsynth filters; even colorspace) that
.. you could throw off the final MPEG size.., because *that* value was
.. not included in the pre testing phase(s) of your preliminary measures.
.. .
.. Anyways.

But, if you want close to absolute quality, then I might suggest you
try a 352 pix @ CBR at 6000 bitrate minimum, and see how many of those
episodes you can get on one DVD disk. I realize that it would be better
to get the whole season on one DVD disk, but unless you go the CQ way, then
any other way is not going to get you the end goal, unless you bump the
res down to 352 and use a 2-pass VBR and Bitrate Calculator setup
instead.., which is ok, but you'll just have to wait the x-time, is all.

You see, my idea of quality (w/ respect to VHS) is to duplicate as best
as possible (baring your skills/knowledge level) the VHS source, pixel for
pixel. That's very hard to do, w/out raising the bitrate. But I've
gotten close to this idea by using CQ (on occasion) And, mainly because
CQ is more quality designed in mind, and has a better chance at filling up
a disk w/ reasonable quality, on a per/disk bases.

But, you're main concirn first, is to find out weather or not, this show
was Telecined (24 fps to 29.970 fps NTSC) and if so, you can obtain good
results by using some of the suggestions above.. or whatever your PAL
equivalent is, in IVTC'ing this source.., that is, if its possible.
but first find out what type of source you have.. Film or

Oh, and don't worry about weather or not these are comming out on DVD's.
Because you never know what might not make it onto dvd's. Plus, this is
a fun hobby.

-->

I see you have choosen to revise your avator, with good reason !!

Good luck, so far.
-vhelp 3079

Well, as for advice..

If what Jim (above) posted works for you, then by all means, use it.
But, there's nothing wrong with runing experiments, when time allows,
or you want to *push* the envelope a little. Small steps. It takes
time to develop certain instincts. I guess you're on your way

IMO, the CQ mode is more or less, for advanced users.. though anyone
could use it.

As i was saying..

Being that you have an ADVC device (as I do) please observe the folloing
advice, which is based on my current experience.
.
.. and the more I use it, the more I'm convienced, that messing the the
.. color is not the route to take (specially for DV formats because of the
.. "tune" color space it is already pre-advantaged for) And, the ADVC perfect
.. for pretty much everything, even commercial VHS, as long as you have the
.. *right* VCR ( of which I had not factored into the equations until recently,
.. as in your sample pic )
.. .
.. My vcr must be missing that filter that your's has, and as such,
.. I was basing my ADVC dumping on commercial VHS sources on this.
.. So, in a sence, I owe the thanks to you. Anyways.

Again, as I was saying..

If you are encoding for TMPGenc, (again) please observe the following
preporation of its encoding your DV source AVI's:

* Options\Environmental setting\..
* [x] Enable reading referrd..
* [ ] Interpolate YUV..
* [ ] Set equation for..

And, as long as your source AVI's are DV related (at least from the ADVC)
you should have no problems with the color space, or color level, for
that matter.
.
When using the above settings, TMPG allows the source to go through,
untouched (other than its internal RGB conversion, should it require it
to be converted (ie, if you open your ADVC's DV source avi directly in
TMPG, vs. frameserving it from say, vdub.., which happens to be in RGB
already)
.
My theory is this, if TMPG senses that the "source" 's color space is RGB
already, it won't require another color space conversion. I'm basing all
this from my encoded outputs thus far.
.
I do tend to play a little though, with the color filter on some of my
dv sources..
.
.. but only because I have a Graphics card that has the capability of
.. outputing video in close to TV mode. When in this mode, (which is [x] Overlay
.. mode ticked inside TMPG) I can see the color space in a totally different
.. perspective, and spot the color changes, even the slightest by one pixel
.. count - something that current Graphics cards of today are not able to provide)
.. I take advantage of this feature in my Graphics card and TMPG. AFAIK, there
.. is no other graphics card and Encoder/App that incorporates such a fine-tune
.. concerto of events of this nature. Its truely a phenomina.., and I know about
.. it. Anyways.
.
So, I can mess around a little with the color filter on some sources.
.
The Graphics card I have is the ATI Rage Fury Pro (AGP) FWIW. It has
the old Theater chip (maybe the first version) inside it.., but not the one's
of today ATI cards, which doesn't seem to have this phenomina I described in
detail, above.

Well, hope I help some more.

-vhelp 3080

Hi,

Can anyone tell me if the JVC HR-S5967 has TBC?

Regards

JT

Originally Posted by oojimmyoo

Can anyone tell me if the JVC HR-S5967 has TBC?

No TBC.