What resolution is TV shot at.

What resolution is TV shot at?
More to the point, should I buy Farscape / Star trek DS9 / etc. On dvd (for way to much money) or should I wait until the HD versions come out on HD-DVD / Blu-ray.

I know that things that are filmed (movies) can benefit from the move to HD but does "video" TV benefit?

Thanks

-a-

Depends on the show and their producer(s). It's a mix. Some are shot on film and then transferred to video for broadcast. Some are shot hi-def and down-rezzed to SD, some are shot SD. It'll likely be a mix for some time to come (although likely there'll be more HD as time goes on, and less SD and film).

Things shot on film (16, 35,super35, 65, 70mm) or on HD can benefit by going to BD/HDDVD, depends on the quality of the master/transfer/compression. SD wouldn't really benefit.

Scott

Thanks for the reply,

Is there anyway to know for the two or three shows I'm thinking of buying?
Any guidelines, like:

old stuff (pre 1970 is on film)
1970-92 would likely be on video SD
and new stuff would be HD

just wondering.

Is it the same deal for animation?

Farscape upto and including season 3 I think was shot on PAL video (it was filmed here in Australia). Best quality would probably be to get PAL Australian DVD's. HD isn't going to gain anything. Season 4 and The Peacekeeper Wars are different. Could be they were shot HD. I don't know. Anyway season 1-3 I think are fullscreen at least and season 4 and PK wars are WS.

DS9 would have been shot on NTSC video probably.

Most current TV I would imagine is shot on HD digi cams since it is cheaper than film and easy for HDTV. Older show would be shot on film or video depending on the budget, etc. Like Enterprise I think they started out with film and finished with HD digital.

A series like Star Trek DS-9 would have been shot on 35mm film but edited and effects done in SD digital video (Rec-601 720x480i/576 4:2:2:4). They usually separately created NTSC (720x480i/59.94) and PAL (720x576i/50) resolution masters. To re-edit for HDTV, they would need to transfer the needed scenes from film at HD resolution and recreate the effects sequences in HD.

In recent years, this kind of series would be edited in 1080i or 720p HD with SD NTSC and SD PAL versions created off the HD masters. Most often 60 Hz. and 50 Hz versions are separately edited.

There is a very recent trend for TV post production to be done at 24fps HDTV (1920x1080p/24) the same resolution as HD/BD DVD. A single 1080p/24 master can be easily converted to 1080i/480i at 29.97, 720p/480p at 59.94, 1080i/576i at 25 or 720p/576p at 50.

AVID and others released 24p versions of their editing software (intended for TV production) a couple of years ago. Over time the only differences between TV and theatrical film editing will be native resolution (1080p vs 4kx4k). Currently, many effects processes can be done realtime or near realtime at 1080p, but require extensive non-realtime computation at 4kx2k or 4kx4k.

http://www.zerocut.com/tech/p24.html
http://www.avid.com/solutions/postproduction/hdsolutions.asp
http://www.avid.com/resources/whitepapers/hdworkflowWP3.pdf?featureID=886&marketID=1

Star Trek: Enterprise is the only Star Trek show that was ever shot in HD. I know the 4th season was. Possibly the 3rd season, but I don't know. I don't believe seasons 1 and 2 were.

Paramount has no plans at present to release any Star Trek shows in any HD format. They are probably waiting to see if either format survives and sells enough copies to justify the cost and time for them to release the shows in it.

Animation is always (as far I can tell) in either 480i or 480p, which is a valid format for HD, but it's compatible with current standard definition DVD. For example, I believe the Simpsons broadcast in 480p, which is a valid resolution for HD, but it's not really any better than current DVD technology. Malcolm In The Middle, on the same network, broadcasts in 720p.

I can't answer your question about Farscape as I'm not a fan, but I would guess that anything recorded prior to about 2003 is most likely not HD.

Don't get caught in the trap of assuming that the way it is shown at broadcast is the way it was shot (or even edited)!

Don't know what animation apps a show like the Simpsons uses, but I would guess that it would be a combination of specialty animation/rotoscope/tweening/onionskinning apps, like Moho, and compositing apps, like AfterEffects or Combustion. A vector-based app like Moho is, in essence, of infinite resolution. It only has a stated resolution when you export the final show. AE/Combustion uses vector and bitmap graphics, but AE at least can have a HUGE canvas size (IIRC, 32000x32000 pixels?), so it all depends on what quality level the producers want, and what infrastructure they can afford to support.

Also, back before most animation was done on computers, it was drawn by hand on cels (roughly 8"x10") and photographed frame-by-frame with a 35mm film camera (so film resolution) or HD camera (HD rez), and then posted and then exported/converted to the size required for broadcast or distribution.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if they worked at 2k or 1080p settings, and then just downrezzed for broadcast.

Scott

..and the other side of the coin to this, is how they will re-process them.

I mean. They may or may not be IVTC capable. Just like the shows are now:

** DS9
** Voyager
** ST-NG (next generation)

These will not IVTC back to 24p properly, because of post editing. Now, I
can't say for sure, whether or not the DVD's out there today are IVTC'able.
However, even if they are, there are areas (scenes) that are post processed
at 30p or 30i, and they are processed with the 24p footage.

At least I've seen this in the ST-NG dvd's. I have the "John Luke specials"
and they are this way (above) for sure.


Only shows that *ARE* IVTC capable are:

** Star Trek (original series)
** Star Trek Enterprise


Currently, I think they took ALL the Star Trek saga's off the air waves.
I haven't seen any since two years now. So you can't even capture them
now.

-vhelp 3936

Most of what HBO and Showtime put on their HD channels is upscaled D1 or Digital Betacam 704x480. You would think they could find enough true HD material to fill one channel each. Seems a total rip to me.

Star Trek shows on SPIKE and G4TV

really!! at what time ? (sorry, OT here)

-vhelp 3937

Yup, most everything prior to 2003 was edited in 4:2:2 480i/29.97 and 576i/25. HD was edited mostly 1080i/29.97 for series.

1080p/24 episodic editing was pioneered by Laser Pacific and is slowly going mainstream.

I had the impression that studios were in the process of digitally archiving films, that are stored in their vaults? Kodak has/had an automated professional machine for years, that scans in each individual film frame at like 4K. This is way above HD resolution.

If only they would've made a master at 4K resolution, way back when the film was originally scanned in for DVD. Then they could just go back to that 4K digital master and scale it back down to HD 1920x1080. But it looks like the film industry were idiots, and only digitized all these films at 720x480/576.

btw...I have the first three seasons of Star Trek Next Generation. The video quality leaves little to be desired. Many scenes are compressed heavily, and it looks like they used a "grain disolver" technique to try to reduce grain. But it looks like it had a side effect. I see this "pattern" that is overlayed on top of the video. It's like a slight mesh effect. Not noticeable until you know what to look for, then it stands out all the time. I won't be buying any more.

Originally Posted by Wile_E

I had the impression that studios were in the process of digitally archiving films, that are stored in their vaults? Kodak has/had an automated professional machine for years, that scans in each individual film frame at like 4K. This is way above HD resolution.

If only they would've made a master at 4K resolution, way back when the film was originally scanned in for DVD. Then they could just go back to that 4K digital master and scale it back down to HD 1920x1080. But it looks like the film industry were idiots, and only digitized all these films at 720x480/576.

btw...I have the first three seasons of Star Trek Next Generation. The video quality leaves little to be desired. Many scenes are compressed heavily, and it looks like they used a "grain disolver" technique to try to reduce grain. But it looks like it had a side effect. I see this "pattern" that is overlayed on top of the video. It's like a slight mesh effect. Not noticeable until you know what to look for, then it stands out all the time. I won't be buying any more.

Movies are a separate issue from TV series. Movie effects were shot or rendered as progressive 24 fps. When movies are transferred to video, each frame is shot at video resolution with a tv camera (or flying spot scanner). The video can be output directly as telecined NTSC or PAL but that is old school. Most modern transfers (pre 4k digital cinema) are digitized frame by frame, filtered and color corrected and only then stored to video tape. The process had to be repeated with each new generation of videotape and separately for NTSC and PAL frame rates.

2" Quadruplex was replaced with 1" type C, then D2 (9 bit composite) or D1 (8/9/10bit 704x486/720x576 component), and then 1080i/720p HD formats.

4kx2K or 4kx4k Digital Cinema is a recent development. New films can be entirely digitally mastered (no film) or scanned from film. The master is digital data that can be converted to a couple of dozen distribution formats.

TV series were often shot on 24fps film but edited at TV resolution after transfer. D1 grade digital special effects were perfected during the 80's allowing advanced series like Star Trek Next Generation* and Max Headroom* to be edited real time in video. In all cases this was done with interlace Rec-601 YUV 4:2:2:4 and/or 4:4:4:4 video.

Twenty years later, this kind of workflow is becoming possible at HD and film resolution.


* These series and others edited at The Post Group in Hollywood.
http://www.postgroup.com/about.php
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Headroom
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trek:_The_Next_Generation