That was a close one

[northcat_8]

Not picking on rkr1958 and not directed at you but I know a great number of people who try to protect their children like this. I know 16 year old kids that aren't allowed to see R rated movies. Heck, I know 3 kids that aren't allowed to see a movie over rated G without parent supervision, they take the rating seriously PG means Parental Guidance. (I swear.) A teacher at our school got in trouble for showing Shrek in class!!!! Are YOU kidding me????

I have 2 observations:

#1 - having seen some of these kids come back to visit post high school or seeing them "out and about" the majority (not all) but the majority of the "straight laced" kids go buck ass wild after they turn 18. Girls who's parents wouldn't let her get her nose pierced comes back with eye brow, tounge, lip, nose and god knows what else pierced. Alcohol and porn are very prevelant in their post high school world. I know a girl who's parents were on her 24/7 about everything. She was always dressed nice, never questionable. Always did her homework, never cussed, never drank, nothing. 100% Poindexter, social misfit in a public high school. Saw her last summer 2 years after she graduated...she's a stripper in Dayton.

#2 - to parents who choose to raise their children in a sheltered manner. How did your parents raise you? Was it the same? Did they shelter and protect your senses? And if they didn't raise you like that, they why change the process, you turned out alright didn't you? I love the paradox of parents who were spanked as a child, who choose not to spank their children.

From what I have seen most of the time a kid is sheltered in their formidable years they live wild until around age 23-24. My cousins were the sheltering type of parents, they have 3 kids. They never spanked their kids and I've never heard either one of the 2 parents cuss (ever). The kids always got "Timeouts". The oldest is 22 now, pierced lip and tounge, 2 kids, one while in HS, 2nd kid same mother, never married. Oldest was very bright, very athletic, extremely sheltered in HS...or so his parents tried and he's a walking clusterphuk as an adult. Second kid, a girl 20, great athlete, 2nd in her class academically. Sheltered as well. She would say she was spending the night with a friend and then go out with friends or stay with a boyfriend (12 football players that I know of, over 2 years). She drinks like a fish and is going to school to be a cosmotologist. I guess turning down academic and athletic scholarships to some very good schools was the smart thing to do. Now the 3rd one is only an 8th grader, and she seems normal. She fits in with everyone else in her class socially. Not that she does what some of the others do but it is not "Taboo" to her, she knows what everything is about. She is going to be alright. My cousin works a normal 9-5 job in a plant, his wife is a teacher. They go to church 3 days a week and are very active in it. To see them 12 years ago, all happy and in full control of their and their kid's world. They don't look like that now.

I know raising kids isn't an exact science but for God's sake parents pickup a psychology book, a child's psychology book and not one from a "Raise your kid's the right way" collection. Just a normal book that explains the way the adolesent mind develops. Learn that from age 5-18 a person's mind (yours did too) develops in a spiral. One example: a child will be out going, then will seem a bit shy, then out going again, then shy again. That's a fact. Although the time frames are long and the degree of it depends on the child, it is a fact. It is a basic learning / application process. It is how they and we grow up physiologically.

When I grew up my parents tried to shelter me a bit here and there. When I couldn't watch some movie because of whatever, all that did was make me wonder what in it was so bad I couldn't see it, and I would eventually see it to find out. My parents were dead set against me drinking as a kid (understandably) so what did I do? I drank. I choose to raise my kids different. My son is 17, all I ever told him about alcohol is "I don't want you to drink, but if you do, just don't drive or ride with someone who has been drinking. I will come get you no matter where you are at, No questions asked." And he doesn't drink, and I know that for a fact. Rather than make it taboo, "if you do this, you're in trouble" type of thing, all I did was; I removed all of that, let him make the decisions and work from there. I just don't glamourize behavior that I deem negative but don't fly off the handle about it when it happens.

To each their own and I know all kids are slightly different, but I do know as a child grows up they are inquizitive, they are experiencing many new things and they are going to find out, it's just a matter of when. I compare raising a child to moving a pig. For some of you city hicks, when you are trying to force a 275 lb hog somewhere it doesn't want to go, it's not going and you can't make it. It is stronger than you, more violent than you and more stubborn than you. The only way to get it to go where it doesn't want to go is to guide it, let it make the decisions and it will eventually go. That's why around fair grounds you always see pig shuttes are so narrow, that's is so they can't turn around, once in that shutte, their only choice is to go forward. Without those shuttes, you might as well be trying to push a 275 lb concrete block through mud.

Guide your kids, don't put constraints on them, they will fight them, now they will either fight them with you, or accept you stand and then hide the behavior from you, then they will talk to teachers like me about how to live with your rules until they turn 18, at which point they will do whatever the hell they want and you can't do anything but be mad about it. (which incidently, is why some of the behavior gets so wild sometimes).

[ZippyP.]

I went to catholic school for 12 years and I f***in' hated it. BTW, I was protected from nothing by going there. Just as much drugs etc. as the regular schools.

[rkr1958]

northcat_8, Pew ... that sure was long response. I'm still trying to read through it and digest it.

I'd like to make a couple of points in response.

1) There's a difference between sheltering a child and rasing them with discipline and respect for others. The latter is what we (my wife and I) wish to achieve. The community (e.g., City) in which we live is composed of highly educated and professional people with a wide diversity of backgrounds. The way that I was raised was that, "Children are meant to be see and not heard". We're not that strict but nothing irritates me more that a child irrupting adults (unless the house or someone is on fire). So back to point 1 ... I'm want to instill discipline and respect ... not shelter.

2) Our reasons for Private Catholic School over public school are: (1) better discipline, (2) more focus on the 3-Rs (Reading, Writing & Arithmetic) & (3) being taught in a more traditional atmoshpere ... one that doesn't have to go overboard to be Policitally Correct.

[Tommyknocker]

Boy, do I agree. I have seen some of the half-raised in this generation. They curse, hit adults, are rude and disrespectful. And this is being done in plain eyesight of the parents. And if it happens on base, and you mention it to the parents, they make a quick phone call, and the next morning you're in front of your commander with your hat in hand.

[northcat_8]

northcat_8, Pew ... that sure was long response. I'm still trying to read through it and digest it.

I'd like to make a couple of points in response.

1) There's a difference between sheltering a child and rasing them with discipline and respect for others. The latter is what we (my wife and I) wish to achieve. The community (e.g., City) in which we live is composed of highly educated and professional people with a wide diversity of backgrounds. The way that I was raised was that, "Children are meant to be see and not heard". We're not that strict but nothing irritates me more that a child irrupting adults (unless the house or someone is on fire). So back to point 1 ... I'm want to instill discipline and respect ... not shelter.

2) Our reasons for Private Catholic School over public school are: (1) better discipline, (2) more focus on the 3-Rs (Reading, Writing & Arithmetic) & (3) being taught in a more traditional atmoshpere ... one that doesn't have to go overboard to be Policitally Correct.

To be honest...and not making a prejudice statement here but.....

I completely understand about wanting the respect and instilling that. I work in a very culturally diverse high school. I find the white kids to be the most disrespectful and I find the black kids to be the most respectful.

Now the reason I think that is, is because the mother is the center and strong hold of the family. I also notice at conferences that black mothers do not put up with any of the BS that white mothers put up with. If I tell a white kid I'm going to call his parents I usually get "I don't care, call them, here's the number." If I tell a black kid the same thing I usually get "NOOO, don't do that. I'll straighten up, I'm sorry."

I think if the parent demands respect from their kids, and are actually parents instead of trying to be their "friend" that carries over to the child's interaction with other adults.

The respect is developed over a series of learned experiences, I don't think there is any coorelation between "protective parenting" and disciplined, respectful kids.

That's just an observation from the inside of HS life.

[budz]

northcat_8 wrote:

The respect is developed over a series of learned experiences

Teaching a child to respect others starts at a early age. What we instill in our children at a early age makes all the difference in the world. To set boundaries, limits & to teach respect on a child at 15 yrs. old is too late if it has never been done before. Example is a toddler age child throwing a temper tantrum in the toystore, the parent gives in and buys the toy he/she wants. It sets the tone that everytime a temper tantrum happens the child knows he/she will get their way. Now try breaking that habit when the child is a 15 yr. old teenager. It'll be too late by then to set boundaries and limits because the child will most likely rebel.

As northcat_8 wrote we need to guide children and not to put restraints on them. Private school vs Public school in my opinion has it's pros and cons. As already stated there is drug use in both sectors. Discpline should be taught by the parents which begins in the home not in the SCHOOL. Private schools student to teacher ratios are smaller than public schools which they can provide much more individualized attention to each student. As for public schools the student to teacher ratios are much higher. I have 2 cousins and 2 aunts that teach in the public school sector. My one cousin teaches the 5th grade with 32 kids in her classroom. I know some who went to private schools & public schools all their lives and they turned out to be drug addicts and criminals because they had sheltered lives or parents who didn't give a rip what they did or did not do.

Don't shelter your children just guide them the best way you know how to. As northcat_8 said pick up a psych. book and read. If you don't know how to guide kids then ask some professional like a doctor or counselor. Parenting isn't easy and no parent can be the perfect parent in my eyes.

[rkr1958]

Discpline should be taught by the parents which begins in the home not in the SCHOOL.

I agree 100%. To go even further, I believe a lot more values should be "taught" be the parents and not the SCHOOL. Specifically, our views (my wife's and mine) on certain social and religious issues. Want I'm looking for is a school environment that reinforces our values and value system. This does not mean we will not expose our son to opposing or alternate views and values. We will. We'll also explain to him why people believe different from us and why we believe the way we do. One day he'll have to choose a value and belief system for himself. More importantly, one day he'll have to decide what's right and wrong. All we're trying to do is to give him the tools and knowlege to select wisely. And all we're looking for in a school is one that supports us in this goal. We we don't want is a school that's so policitally correct and morally watered down that anything goes and that there is no right and wrong. So watered down that its taboo to even consider that spirituallity and / or religion might be part of somebody's life.

[Doramius]

I think I understand what you're saying. IMO I find that morals and Political correctness often contradict each other and aren't often together.

There are people who want to offend those with different moral beliefs, so morals seem to disappear.

People are going to get offended. Piss off. It happens everyday wether you want it to happen or not. It's all based on point of view. If you get worked up about it, it may create a bigger problem. Just as Northcat said, children that were spanked and turned out fine or better may take the approach and not spank their childen. As time goes by they find their 32 year old son and his current live-in girlfriend haven't moved out. He's currently unemployed because of attitude and temper. And he dresses like an 80's punker in Gothic colors.

We all have judgment to reason. We can make choices. I really don't think people choose right or wrong in most cases, unless you know something for certain and you choose for or against it. In that case you're deliberately making a bad decision, or well researched wise/good decision. I think mostly it's a best thought through decision in which you find out wether your sonsequences are good or bad. What I have a hard time with is when people have physical facts about a good decision and path that's been proven, they feel their judgement is more correct and choose a different path. These same people complain that it's someone elses fault that things turned out bad for them and they refuse to find fault in themselves. [/rant]

[northcat_8]

Discpline should be taught by the parents which begins in the home not in the SCHOOL.

I agree 100%. To go even further, I believe a lot more values should be "taught" be the parents and not the SCHOOL. Specifically, our views (my wife's and mine) on certain social and religious issues. Want I'm looking for is a school environment that reinforces our values and value system. This does not mean we will not expose our son to opposing or alternate views and values. We will. We'll also explain to him why people believe different from us and why we believe the way we do. One day he'll have to choose a value and belief system for himself. More importantly, one day he'll have to decide what's right and wrong. All we're trying to do is to give him the tools and knowlege to select wisely. And all we're looking for in a school is one that supports us in this goal. We we don't want is a school that's so policitally correct and morally watered down that anything goes and that there is no right and wrong.

I do agree that the private school sector has a far less varience of behavior and social issues. The environment is much more structured and more closely monitored because of the T/S ratio. The main difference is while the same problems exist at every school, the number of students partaking in that behavior is fewer in a private or smaller school. So if for example, you are a Coke head, in a private or small school there may be 1-2 other kids who can afford and will partake in that activity. Where as where I teach with 1500 kids, I know for a fact, if you are a coke head, there is a peer group for that, and you wouldn't have to search very long to find participants. (I know of 6 kids right now...if anyone is interested )

So watered down that its taboo to even consider that spirituallity and / or religion might be part of somebody's life.

seperation of church and state, "In God We Trust" but by golly not in a school you can't

I really like my HS, as I've said it is a very diverse culture. We have blacks, whites, mexican, spanish (from Spain), Indians (from India!!), Japanese, Korean, African, Yugoslavian, Iranians, Afganisanians, Ecuador, Chinese, Canadian, and a few others. (No engrish wankers though ) I have been there 4 years and I am constantly amazed by the diverse culture. And as a school we have to cater to all of those cultures and not upset their religious influences. For example, "fasting" is common and none of us Americans black or white can understand the logic behind that...and for most of us "fluffier" folks, that eliminates that religion right there ......sorry, I digressed.....what I was going to say, is one of my favorite things to do is to ask these kids about their different religions. Thankfully on 9-11, I had a well liked girl in class who just happened to be Muslim. The rest of the kids were amazed as she explained her religion and everything. I was careful to not single her out, I had the boy from Ecuador talk about their culture and things, as well as the girl from India, she is Hindu and she explained all of that. She also said "God Dammit" one day and then commented that didn't mean anything to her, so one of the very inteligent kids in class said "well, Ganesh Dammit it should." and the girl got bent, but understood the reference. I just had to laugh. Then the girl from Afganistan told about how her mother commited some sin against her father, and that he could legally kill her for what she did, so her grandma and grandpa litterally snuck them on to a cargo ship, and 2 weeks later they were in America. Her and her brother cannot return to Afganistan before the age of 25 or they will be sold into slavery to pay for the sins of their mother

The American kids were shocked. They couldn't believe it. We didn't learn much math that day, but my class was very educational and all of my kids walked out having a new appreciation for their freedom and realized that no matter how bad things seemed, they could be MUCH worse off.

I agree rkr1958 the world today is one crazy place. There are no more taboo subjects to kids. But think about it, a kid in HS today has never experienced a world before AIDS, there has always been a drug problem, porn is only Cinemax after 10 pm away, heck even R-rated qualified as softcore porn when we were all kids, 50 years ago Playboy was trying find women who would pose for their magazine, now there are so many women wanting to get naked and be seen that the internet is overrun with porn. Not a single kid was shocked over what Janet Jackson did during the Superbowl, a shit load of parents were shocked, but if no big deal was made of it the kids wouldn't have thought twice about it. Maybe some of those "shocked" parents should listen to their child's music from time to time It's a crazy world now, I'm sure glad I'm not growing up in it (although, my wife would debate that last statement, I just stick my tounge out at her when she does that )

[northcat_8]

Holy shit that was pretty long...sorry about that.

I guess I'm pretty strongly opinioned on the "kid" subject, but my god, it's so easy to see which kids need attention, which kids need someone to listen to them, which kids need for someone to appreciate them, if you just know what to look for.

Alright, I'll shut up now and go look for some porn.

[CoasterCreator]

agreed

[northcat_8]

agreed

DBG