want opinions on "best" capture settings for ATI A

[pglenn]

I know there are probably 1001 opinions on this, but I am looking for suggestions as to the "best" settings for using the ATI All-In-Wonder cards for TV-Capture, and/or VHS tape recording to digital. I currently have the ATI AIW 7500, with cable coaxial input (from my VCR which has cable in). My PC is running WinXP, P4 2.3gig, 512mb RAM.

I have experimented with various custom setting on the ATI Digital VCR for recording, but havent found the "perfect" settings yet for duplicating the input quality.

I also have been experimenting using VirtualDub for capture, using various compressions/codec settings but still have yet to find the best settings for that as well, though the Divx Fast-Motion comes "closest" to perfect.

So far, the best settings I have found for the ATI Digital VCR seem to be as follows:
- MPEG-2
- 352x480, NTSC (525)
- 9.99M/sec
- Inverse 3:2 Pulldown NOT selected
- Deinterlacing NOT selected
- Visual Masking NOT selected
- P-Frames = 2
- B-Frames = 2
- Motion Estimation Quality = 98
- Motion Estimation Ranges horizontal=32, vertical=16

But even the above settings seem to give a very, very (I mean just barely visible) slight snow over the picture, and seemingly just perceptable thin "flashing" horizontal lines with a very slightly darker overall picture then the TV input.

I am looking for any opinions on using what I have (VirtualDub or the ATI software, plus my PC setup) for recording, or suggestions on other software. Also opinions on what people have found to give them the best settings for recording.

Patrick

[FOO]

I have had an 8500 forever and I only capture 2 ways.

1. If I want to edit, apply filters, etc to get the best possible
video, i capture AVI with PicVideo MJPEG codec at 720 x 480
and frameserve that to TMPGenc with Vdub or Avisynth.

2. If I just want to grab a movie without all the trouble, I capture
direct to MPEG2 720 x 480 at 4000-5000 VBR and delete
commercials with MPEG2VCR. No deinterlace no IVTC MP2 audio

Vdub isn't too good with ATI because it doesnt support WDM drivers
and ATI doesn't have VFW drivers.

I usually author with MF2 without menus.

I have tried every other way there is (that I know of)

[lordsmurf]

@pglenn
Upgrade to ATI MMC 8.x
From the settings you gave, I see you use an old version.

On 352x480, anything past 4.00 just bloats the file size. 9.99M/sec is overkill, and falls outside DVD specs.

And don't forgot what you see on the monitor isn't the same as the tv.

[vhelp]

Hi guys,

If you want to use your ATI cards w/ vdub, you have to install the VFW
driver.

You can still find them on Hauppauge's website. Even if ATI does not have
them (though I do not believe that you "cannot" get them from ATI)
Hauppuage sitll has them, and all you have to do in D/L them from under
the W98 section somewheres.

Look for either one of these vfw files to D/L:
* wtvdr418.exe
* wtvdr419.exe

Or, if you can find the ATI-TV Wonder drivers, these have the VFW drivers,
which you can get on ATI's web site anyways..

Once installed, reboot and you're in business to capture w/ vdub or avi_io
and have a ball at it.

This driver works w/ all ATI Analog capture cards ie, my ATI-TV Wonder
and Hauppague cards, and even my Osprey-210 card.

Works like a charm for me on both my pcs.

Good luck,
-vhelp

[Will Hay]

For me it's Virtualdub with PicVideo at quality 19 (of 20) at 720x576 and encode with TMPGEnc at around 7000VBR
Will

[bpjenn]

I agree with Lordsmurf. You really need to upgrade to MMC 8.5 and anything over 352x480, 4M-5M is unnecessary. Here are my settings for capturing my home videos (8mm/VHS):

Video: (DVD Compliant-can author a DVD from file with these settings)
--MPEG-2 DVD
--352x480
--Encode Interlace (MMC 8.5 DVD Player (the one based on Cyberlink PowerDVD) will deinterlace for computer monitor)
--Record Cropped Video Checked (to get rid of overscan area for computer playback)
--P Frames 4
--B Fames 2
--4-5M VBR
--Motion Estimation 100
--Videosoap-None
Audio:
--48000KHZ, 16 Bits, Stereo, LPCB (this makes it DVD compliant and playable on almost any stand alone DVD player)

[pixel]

Definitely upgrade to MMC 8.1 or 8.5.

Settings:

Mpeg 2,
352x576 or 352x480,
VBR Max 5000, average 4000,
MPEG2 DVD profile (drop down menu in top left hand corner),
Encode Interlaced,
Motion Estimate at 100 (If you drop frames lower this),
Audio at 224 or 256,
Light Videosoap for all videos, unless they are quite bad, then use Heavy,
Cropping.

I would suggest Lordsmurf's real-time MPEG 2 capture guide, its very good, but simple enough for anyone to use.

EDIT:: B frames 2, P frames 4

[bpjenn]

Pixel, reencoding of cropped video will not occur if you select the proper setting in MMC. You must select MPEG-2 DVD (not just MPEG-2) under format in MMC 8.5 with Record Cropped Video checked. I don't recall if this was availabe with 8.1. I've authored many DVDs using VideoStudio 7 and DVD MovieMaker 2 and no reencoding takes place if you make the proper settings in these programs.

[pixel]

bpjenn, are you saying that if you choose the DVD MPEG2 setting in MMC, you still get a standard DVD resolution catpured and it is not smaller due to the cropping option?

Or are you just saying it makes a non-compliant video, but if you pick the right settings you can create a non-compliant DVD without re-encoding?

[pixel]

I just tried a test clip from a VHS cassette there and it did capture with it cropped, but still DVD compatible. Thanks for that bpjenn

You learn something new every day

[bpjenn]

It is DVD compliant. The resolution is 352X480 (you can, of course, select 720X480 if you have a fast enough computer). This feature was added by ATI in either 8.1 or 8.5, I don't remember. I was so thrilled when this was done! All my playback of DVDs are done on computers and to be able to get rid of the overscan without the need to reencode was a godsend.

[lordsmurf]

You must select MPEG-2 DVD (not just MPEG-2) under format in MMC 8.5 with Record Cropped Video checked. I don't recall if this was availabe with 8.1.

Well, that solves it. I completely overlooked the "MPEG-2 DVD" setting. Was so used to just using MPEG-2 since the old MMC 7.x days.

Cropping with MPEG-2 will make non-compliant video as it will trim off all sides of the image. Capturing MPEG-2 DVD merely masks the overscan areas in black.

This works in MMC 8.1 and above. Have not tested MMC 8.0.

HOWEVER! Be aware that under the DISPLAY tab of the settings page, you MUST selected "Crop Video" there as well.

Again, this is only beneficial when capturing from a source that contains garbage in the overscan areas. My preference would to capture all available data when the source is perfect cable, broadcast or satellite transmissions captured directly.

I'll make necessary updates to my guides!

And yes, clearing the overscan does allow more bitrate to be used by the show. I was capturing a 2.6 MB/s show just now, and the picture quality DID immediately improve after the mask was put in use. I was actually quite surprised it would make such a difference.

Thanks.

[FOO]

Anybody know how to set the cropping size ?
(without diddling the registry )

[bpjenn]

ATI MMC seems to be getting better all the time now. With the next version 8.6 coming soon you will get DVD authoring too. I'm not sure if it will let you do any kind of editing-remove commercials, etc. Maybe 8.7 will? Then it will truly be an All-in-Wonder solution!

[presto]

Lordsmurf et al,
I have not been able to find anything at all from ATI on video soap settings. Did they really put out video soap without any explanation of what a combo filter is and what the difference between combo 1 and combo 2 is or did I just miss it? I searched for soap on the site and got nothing. I read the manual and it only tells how to apply soap but not what the filters are intended to do.

The only info I have so far is what is in Lordsmurfs guide as far as his recommended settings.

Here are a few specific questions:

1) Capturing a great signal from TV - Any Soap?
2) Capturing VHS that was recorded at slp. The picture is not bad but all of the areas that are supposed to be solid seem to be "alive" with molecular life. - Does this need soft focus or combo filtering?
3) Would it ever make sense to soft focus and sharpen a picture? Smoothing it out to get rid of the shimmering and then sharpen it so that it doesn't look out of focus?
4) What does combo 1 do? When do you use it? What setting?
5) Same for combo 2 and why does it take so much computing power?
6) When someone says use light soap on everything to reduce file size is that the soft focus setting or combo1?
7) What does the sport setting do?
8) Where is ATI's guide for all this?

Thanks

[lordsmurf]

1) Capturing a great signal from TV - Any Soap?

>>> Use no soap. Soap is for degraded signals. Soap is a video restoration technique.

2) Capturing VHS that was recorded at slp. The picture is not bad but all of the areas that are supposed to be solid seem to be "alive" with molecular life. - Does this need soft focus or combo filtering?

>>> The tv normally covers this up. The salt-n-pepper may work. Combo blurs a lot, so only use it if the quality is REALLY degraded. Don't use soft focus.

3) Would it ever make sense to soft focus and sharpen a picture? Smoothing it out to get rid of the shimmering and then sharpen it so that it doesn't look out of focus?

>>> You got it. Doesn't always work, but can. I use the SHARP filter on my JVC VCR, then capture with soft focus. Or vice versa. SOFT on the VCR, and sharp in the soap.

4) What does combo 1 do? When do you use it? What setting?

>>> I remember seeing the writeup once. It's a mix of blur and despeckle. Two filters.

5) Same for combo 2 and why does it take so much computing power?

>>> All three filters. Even my system, powerhouse that it is, will drop when using this one... sometimes. It's three filters with high settings.

6) When someone says use light soap on everything to reduce file size is that the soft focus setting or combo1?

>>> If your source is perfect, that won't do anything but hurt it. The file size reduction is a bad reason to use it. Use it to make your video look better. Soap is only needed on old tapes with lots of errors. Remember that most minute little errors will disappear on tv anyway due to low resolution of tv screens. If you make the final disc, and it's a bit too big, pull out DVD2one (preferred) or DVD Shrink.

7) What does the sport setting do?

>>> Despeckle and soft focus. It's the combo filter. I see no rhyme or reason to the filter names or the intended functions. The more ATI tries to be useful, the more useless they seem to get. ATI, call it what it is, and be done with it. No fancy names or settings, please.

8) Where is ATI's guide for all this?

>>> They're useless. They made a great card and very functional software that can encode great quality, but as we can see from the default factory settings in MMC and the manuals that come with the equipment, they don't know diddly squat about video! They need to hire in some video professionals to work on the settings, and journalists like myself (as we speak human language, not techno babble and doublespeak) to write the manuals.

[presto]

Thanks for taking the time to answer. My captures are really good even on bad video so I can't complain too much. I still find it mind boggling that a company would just put out something called "video soap" and not give a detailed explanation of what in the world to do with it. Imagine how many users out there are making their videos worse because they figure filtering must be a good thing.

I'm thinking of taking one clip and running it through different filter combinations and settings and putting the many resulting clips on one DVD to see for myself what they do.

[pglenn]

I tried upgrade from the MMC 7.5 to the 8.1, I downloaded the files from ATI, but when I try to run the setup files, the setup locks up, never completely loads much less gets past the first screen. Is it incompatible with the 8.x or is there something else I am missing?

I stopped all other programs running, and uninstalled the current ATI files, didnt work.

ATI 7500
winXP

[presto]

It is possible your computer is just hanging up on the installation. When my screen just freezes durring installation (as apposed to getting a message from the setup program), I run EndItAll first and then try the install again.

In any case be sure you have the correct files and follow the directions as far as the order of installation and when to reboot.

The next concern is that the setup program may still see the old version even though you have uninstalled it or windows may automatically reinstall the old drivers when you reboot. The solution to all this is to do a clean install of ATI. I searched around and found several guides on how to do this. I don't know exactly where they are so you'll have to search a bit yourself. Sounds like a big pain but it's not really that bad and in my case it worked. When the computer rebooted it couldn't reinstall the ati display drivers because I had removed every trace of ATI from my computer. It then installed the generic display driver. Then my installation of the new driver worked.

I was plagued with dropping frames with MMC 7 and 8 untill I removed ATI from my system, Updated Windows XP, then installed MMC 8. Now for the first time I can record at full DVD with 100 per cent motion estimation and no dropped frames!

Whew

[pglenn]

well, good and bad. I installed the EndItNow and was able to install/upgrade the MMC 8.5 but now I have two additional problems. FIrst is not a major problem, I no longer have the floating MMC tool bar. I can deal w/o that. The main problem is now when I click on the ATI-TV option (startup/programs/ATI mutimedia center/TV) I get the opening TV screen but the TV never opens. I tested all the other features (DVD, VCD, VIEWER) and they open fine. I also opened VirtualDub and was able to open the TV viewer from there so I know it is working. Maybe I have to update the ATI video drivers?

Patrick

[Nelson37]

For installation, check the detailed instructions at rage3d. Yes, you need the newer drivers. I have same card with MMC 8.1.

My caps are 90% from digital cable. Non-digital stations require slightly higher bitrates.

After much experimentation, I have settled in at 720x480, DVD MPEG-2, Cropped, Avg 3.5 Max 4.0, no soap. Am undecided on a 15% to 20% Sharpen. Audio 48 K @ 224. Captures can be immediately burnt and played though I usually convert the audio to AC-3. Am working on direct cap to AC-3.

Video settings, assuming a 0 - 100 scale, (values are approximate as the #@!%& scale is unmarked) Brighness 60-65 (this is very necessary for TV playback), color 70-75, tint about 52-53, contrast 45-50, gamma about 15. Tint is the only one accurately adjustable on the PC (check for skin tones, default is slightly greenish), others must be burnt and played on standalone thru TV to evaluate.

Have used IVTC on dozens of Premium Cable movies. It works. Produces a framerate of 24.1x, with an embedded pulldown flag. Difficult to edit, and do not play well in many PC programs. WinDVD and two different standalones tested and play fine.

Change your input to S-video if possible, composite if not. Coax connection is worst of the three.

[presto]

Is the computer hooked up to the internet? One time my MMC refused to open on a particular computer and I realized that computer was not hooked to the internet. I think MMC checks something on the internet when it opens. I hope others will chime in and either confirm this or correct me.

[presto]

Maybe I have to update the ATI video drivers?

I just noticed this in your post. When you go to ATI's site and get the drivers they tell you what to install and what order to install them. It is very important to do it correctly.