Question about TBC in TRV-65 Hi8 Camcorder

[AquaCCD]

Hello everyone,

I just joined the forum because I've started using a Hi8 camcorder again. It's a Sony CCD-TRV65. Unfortunately right now I'm traveling for work so I don't actually have access to it but I have a day off and I'm trying to gather data for setting up some sort of capture workflow when I get home in a few weeks.

Anyway, my camcorder records and plays back just fine. Looking at the LCD screen on the camcorder, what I see on playback is completely acceptable. If I could record the exact same pixels I see on the LCD and save it to my computer, I would be fine. I guess that seems obvious but what I mean is I don't need any video enhancement or reconstruction.

I have a composite USB capture card lying around somewhere, and I'm pretty sure what the opinion of most people on this forum would be about that device. I'd like something better than that.

The other day I tested playback from my camcorder to a CRT TV using a composite video cable. The video quality was still acceptable to me, but there was significant vertical jittering and from what I could find out, it seems like the TBC isn't enabled when playing back through composite. I can't find much more info on this. The video looks fine without jitter in the LCD on the camcorder, but not when it's outputting to another display, which makes me worried because when I capture the video it would also look shaky.

Does anyone know if there's a way to enable TBC on the composite output of these Sony Hi8 camcorders? If not, does the TBC at least work when using the S-Video output?

If I can get the internal TBC to work when outputting video from any port, I'd be happy. If not, it means I would have to go down another rabbit hole which I'd rather avoid. Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks!

[dellsam34]

TBC when enabled is active on all outputs, Your LCD screen looks stable because it's small and has fixed assigned pixels unlike the flackery CRT screen that has an electron gun scanning the screen with no assigned pixels, Anyway you should capture from S-Video not composite for better quality.

[VWestlife]

There is an option in the menu to turn on or off the TBC (page 33):
https://www.sony.com/electronics/support/res/manuals/3861/38619011M.pdf

[AquaCCD]

TBC when enabled is active on all outputs, Your LCD screen looks stable because it's small and has fixed assigned pixels unlike the flackery CRT screen that has an electron gun scanning the screen with no assigned pixels, Anyway you should capture from S-Video not composite for better quality.

Interesting, I can't show an example right now but the vertical jitter on the CRT was pretty intense. Not saying I don't believe you, but I am surprised. You wouldn't happen to be able to point me to a source that would confirm TBC is enabled for playback, would you? (Hope I don't come across as rude, I'm just curious.) For playback on a CRT in this case, what do you think would be a good idea to make the video more steady? Just a standard video stabilization program?

And yes, my plan once I figured out the TBC stuff was the capture with S-Video, not composite. Is there a standard, acceptable quality S-Video capture device you could recommend? A USB device would be convenient but I could go for a PCI card as well. Thanks for the advice!

[dellsam34]

I assumed you had the TBC turned on but looking for another option to enable it or disable it on certain outputs which doesn't exist. VWestlife answered your question.

[AquaCCD]

There is an option in the menu to turn on or off the TBC (page 33):
https://www.sony.com/electronics/support/res/manuals/3861/38619011M.pdf

I had seen that, but I'd gotten worried that maybe it somehow only worked for the internal display and wasn't connected to the video outputs or something. Maybe I was overreacting.

I think I've seen you over on Tapeheads too. Hi again.

[AquaCCD]

I assumed he has the TBC turned on but looking for another option to enable it or disable it on certain outputs.

It was on when I checked settings. I just got worried when the video on the CRT looked shaky. But I'm a bit less worried now, I think a decent S-video capture card and perhaps a run through video stabilization software will be good enough for my purposes, at least for now. I'm sure that will likely change in the future

[dellsam34]

So my assumption was correct, If the TBC is on, it is ON on all outputs, CRT TVs are good for pointing out defects, That's why a lot of hobbyists and repair techs use them for troubleshooting video defects, They are not top quality displays by modern standards, replaced by plasma and OLED, but they are good tools for the mentioned tasks.

[AquaCCD]

So my assumption was correct, If the TBC is on, it is ON on all outputs, CRT TVs are good for pointing out defects, That's why a lot of hobbyists and repair techs use them for troubleshooting video defects, They are not top quality displays by modern standards, replaced by plasma and OLED, but they are good tools for the mentioned tasks.

It would seem to make sense that if there's only one TBC on/off setting that it'd be enabled for video outputs, it just doesn't say it specifically. My target display is a CRT though, so some sort of video stabilization is probably what I'll need. If you have any pointers for that I would love to hear them.

[dellsam34]

Some Panasonic DVD recorders known to have good stabilization capabilities for consumer capture devices, DVD recorders models such as the ES10 and ES20, People who dealt with such setups will chime in to help you.

[Sharc]

@AquaCCD: You can't really judge the video quality on a small monitor like the camera's display or a mobile phone. Small displays do mask many defects.
Capture card: For USB devices the I-O Data GV-USB2 is my preference. Also the Hauppauge USB-live2 can do a nice job, with some minor caveats though IMO. There are few more models, but there exists a lot of cheap crap devices.
For video stabilization a DVD recorder in passthrough has already been mentioned. Well known for good stabilizing performance are the Panasonic ES-10 or ES-15. ES-20 I wouldn't recommend. It works but it performs sub-par in my experience. Try first to capture without the external stabilizer and just use the camera's internal TBC, it may be good enough. Watch the result on your large CRT TV/monitor.
Capture lossless interlaced 4:2:2, S-video. Capture SW AmarecTV or VirtualDub. Eventually do some post processing as required (denoising, compression etc.). Be prepared for a certain learning curve. Plenty of posts about this subject.
If you are really planning to watch your videos on a CRT monitor/TV, leave them interlaced, don't deinterlace. For modern progressive monitors/TVs you may want to deinterlace the capture in post processing, but take note that today's TVs can do the deinterlacing themselves with reasonable/good quality.

If all this sounds intimidating you may also consider a standalone HW capture solution like the SONY devices discussed in other threads/YT by @VWestlife, or as a last resort use a standard DVD recorder to capture to standard DVDs.

[AquaCCD]

@AquaCCD: You can't really judge the video quality on a small monitor like the camera's display or a mobile phone. Small displays do mask many defects.
Capture card: For USB devices the I-O Data GV-USB2 is my preference. Also the Hauppauge USB-live2 can do a nice job, with some minor caveats though IMO. There are few more models, but there exists a lot of cheap crap devices.
For video stabilization a DVD recorder in passthrough has already been mentioned. Well known for good stabilizing performance are the Panasonic ES-10 or ES-15. ES-20 I wouldn't recommend. It works but it performs sub-par in my experience. Try first to capture without the external stabilizer and just use the camera's internal TBC, it may be good enough. Watch the result on your large CRT TV/monitor.
Capture lossless interlaced 4:2:2, S-video. Capture SW AmarecTV or VirtualDub. Eventually do some post processing as required (denoising, compression etc.). Be prepared for a certain learning curve. Plenty of posts about this subject.
If you are really planning to watch your videos on a CRT monitor/TV, leave them interlaced, don't deinterlace. For modern progressive monitors/TVs you may want to deinterlace the capture in post processing, but take note that today's TVs can do the deinterlacing themselves with reasonable/good quality.

If all this sounds intimidating you may also consider a standalone HW capture solution like the SONY devices discussed in other threads/YT by @VWestlife, or as a last resort use a standard DVD recorder to capture to standard DVDs.

The GV-USB2 and Hauppage both seem like good choices. I assume when people say to avoid USB dongle type devices it's more about the chipset and hardware than the form factor, right? I was considering one of those Dazzle USB capture devices to start off with since they're cheaper. I'm aware the GV-USB2 is probably better, but could you speak on how much better it is than the USB2? From the videos I've seen online so far, there's a noticeable difference, but not a very large one.

I'm fine working with whatever software is needed. I don't think I'll need a standalone recorder.

[Sharc]

The GV-USB2 and Hauppage both seem like good choices. I assume when people say to avoid USB dongle type devices it's more about the chipset and hardware than the form factor, right? I was considering one of those Dazzle USB capture devices to start off with since they're cheaper ....

Dazzle? Good luck with the models vs drivers vs OS mess. Maybe read through some of these threads to get an idea
https://www.videohelp.com/search?q=Dazzle
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/407566-Which-version-or-chipset-are-on-new-Dazzle-...es#post2672131
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/407779-Elgato-vs-Diamond-VC500-vs-Dazzle

[Alwyn]

Note page 33 of the manual, in the TBC section:

Set TBC to OFF when:
•Playing back a tape you have dubbed over.
•Playing back a tape on which you recorded the signal of a TV game or similar
machine.
•The playback picture fluctuates.

[AquaCCD]

Note page 33 of the manual, in the TBC section:

Set TBC to OFF when:
•Playing back a tape you have dubbed over.
•Playing back a tape on which you recorded the signal of a TV game or similar
machine.
•The playback picture fluctuates.

I'll definitely try with TBC both on and off to compare the results when I can. But I'm just curious, do you know why having TBC on would cause the picture to fluctuate?

[CaptureCraft]

@AquaCCD: You can't really judge the video quality on a small monitor like the camera's display or a mobile phone. Small displays do mask many defects.
Capture card: For USB devices the I-O Data GV-USB2 is my preference. Also the Hauppauge USB-live2 can do a nice job, with some minor caveats though IMO. There are few more models, but there exists a lot of cheap crap devices.
For video stabilization a DVD recorder in passthrough has already been mentioned. Well known for good stabilizing performance are the Panasonic ES-10 or ES-15. ES-20 I wouldn't recommend. It works but it performs sub-par in my experience. Try first to capture without the external stabilizer and just use the camera's internal TBC, it may be good enough. Watch the result on your large CRT TV/monitor.
Capture lossless interlaced 4:2:2, S-video. Capture SW AmarecTV or VirtualDub. Eventually do some post processing as required (denoising, compression etc.). Be prepared for a certain learning curve. Plenty of posts about this subject.
If you are really planning to watch your videos on a CRT monitor/TV, leave them interlaced, don't deinterlace. For modern progressive monitors/TVs you may want to deinterlace the capture in post processing, but take note that today's TVs can do the deinterlacing themselves with reasonable/good quality.

If all this sounds intimidating you may also consider a standalone HW capture solution like the SONY devices discussed in other threads/YT by @VWestlife, or as a last resort use a standard DVD recorder to capture to standard DVDs.

The GV-USB2 and Hauppage both seem like good choices. I assume when people say to avoid USB dongle type devices it's more about the chipset and hardware than the form factor, right? I was considering one of those Dazzle USB capture devices to start off with since they're cheaper. I'm aware the GV-USB2 is probably better, but could you speak on how much better it is than the USB2? From the videos I've seen online so far, there's a noticeable difference, but not a very large one.

I'm fine working with whatever software is needed. I don't think I'll need a standalone recorder.

The GV-USB2 is a mediocre capture card at best. It was giving me about 70 lost/duplicated frames on 1.5 hours video. Also, it gives small distortion.
I was very happy when I sold it. Luckily, because of the hype, I was able to sell it at higher than I bought price.

Panasonic ES-10/ES-15 are really good. Just make sure you turn off the built-in TBC, because all the timings would be changed by it and Panasonic's TBC would be absolutely useless.
However, there is a serious issue with S-Video and component out signals - due to the dedicated amplifier, they produce hot, overexposed signal, which causes clipping on the next node (capture card or some other device).
Component output is not affected.
So, if you ever decide to use, there are a couple of workarounds.
Use component output. You would need to find a card which accepts component signal.
Use European PAL version (it works with NTSC too), it has a SCART connector, which has separate original S-Video signal, which is not affected by dedicated amplifier used for S-Video out. You would need a transformer to produce 220v power source.

Forgot to add - you need frame TBC. I use Sony RDR-HXD890. That really helps with signal levels and frame stabilization.

[Sharc]

The GV-USB2 is a mediocre capture card at best.....

So what other capture card(s) which are currently under active production at comparable cost are your recommendations then?

Use European PAL version (it works with NTSC too), it has a SCART connector, which has separate original S-Video signal, which is not affected by dedicated amplifier used for S-Video out

The signals are basically the same (unless they are misaligned or badly calibrated by the factory), but the S-video luma+sync (Y-wire) on the DIN/Hosiden output is AC-coupled while on the SCART output it is DC restored (fix clamped black level). This makes a difference for the subsequent device (capture card's own DC restoration and AGC). Verified with my PAL ES-15.

[Alwyn]

Panasonic ES-10/ES-15 are really good. Just make sure you turn off the built-in TBC

How do you do that?

What is the point of using the ES-15 if you "turn off the TBC"? Why is it "really good" after that?

[Alwyn]

why having TBC on would cause the picture to fluctuate?

Good question. There must be some scenarios Sony has identified where the TBC messes up the output.

[Alwyn]

The GV-USB2 is a mediocre capture card at best. It was giving me about 70 lost/duplicated frames on 1.5 hours video.

You have fundamental issues with your setup, in that case. The GV-USB2 is a great digitiser, as good as the USB-710, and more resilient than the USB-Live2 with bad signals.

[CaptureCraft]

The GV-USB2 is a mediocre capture card at best.....

So what other capture card(s) which are currently under active production at comparable cost are your recommendations then?

Use European PAL version (it works with NTSC too), it has a SCART connector, which has separate original S-Video signal, which is not affected by dedicated amplifier used for S-Video out

The signals are basically the same (unless they are misaligned or badly calibrated by the factory), but the S-video luma+sync (Y-wire) on the DIN/Hosiden output is AC-coupled while on the SCART output it is DC restored (fix clamped black level). This makes a difference for the subsequent device (capture card's own DC restoration and AGC). Verified with my PAL ES-15.

As far as I know nobody produces good consumer capture cards nowadays as not that many people buy them.
What market is flooded with is multiple reincarnations and variations of Ezcap, which are garbage.
Generally I see 2 options.
1. To purchase one old but tested from LordSmurf. I don't know his prices, but what I do know, they require old OS, like Windows 7, or maybe even XP.
2. To purchase semi-professional card. They are supported, they work under modern OS. They are good quality. However, they don't like "drunk" signal. You have to make sure you have good frame TBC.

I don't want to recommend anything to anyone.
However, I find it would be OK just to say what I use.
Right now I have "AJA KONE LHe+ - 0" and "Magewell Pro Capture AIO".

As far as I remember the schematic for ES-15, there is an amplifier only for dedicated S-Video out, which screws things up.
There is no amplifier for S-Video signal in SCART.

[CaptureCraft]

Panasonic ES-10/ES-15 are really good. Just make sure you turn off the built-in TBC

How do you do that?

What is the point of using the ES-15 if you "turn off the TBC"? Why is it "really good" after that?

I was referring to scenario when people might try to use both built-in TBC in their VCR/Camcorder and Panasonic
So, if you use Panasonic, then you need turn off TBC in VCR/Camcorder.

Component output is not affected.
So, if you ever decide to use, there are a couple of workarounds.
Use component output.

You need to proof-read your suggestions.

I don't see any issue.
And your quote is partial. You cut off the part, without which this quote is meaningless.

[CaptureCraft]

The GV-USB2 is a mediocre capture card at best. It was giving me about 70 lost/duplicated frames on 1.5 hours video.

You have fundamental issues with your setup, in that case. The GV-USB2 is a great digitiser, as good as the USB-710, and more resilient than the USB-Live2 with bad signals.

Yes! And that fundamental issue was gone as soon I switched to a semi-professional card!
That makes me think GV-USB2 is fundamental issue!
I do not know about other cards you mentioned. All I know that I would never ever would use any USB-based capture cards!

[Alwyn]

I don't see any issue.
And your quote is partial. You cut off the part, without which this quote is meaningless.

Yes, my apologies. Got my wires crossed. Original comment amended.

Of course, a Component digitiser opens another can of worms.

[Sharc]

I don't want to recommend anything to anyone.
However, I find it would be OK just to say what I use.
Right now I have "AJA KONE LHe+"

USD 1500.- vs USD 70.- Oh well. Out of range for most I guess, for capturing home VHS tapes.

As far as I remember the schematic for ES-15, there is an amplifier only for dedicated S-Video out, which screws things up.
There is no amplifier for S-Video signal in SCART.

As I wrote the basic difference between S-Video vs S-video on SCART socket is the clamping circuit for DC restoration, not some amplifier gain.
If there is a level/gain shift it originates from the input circuits of the ES-15 (gain, AGC) and how it treats the signal coming from the VCR. Whatever, it's manageable.

[lollo]

The GV-USB2 is a mediocre capture card at best. It was giving me about 70 lost/duplicated frames on 1.5 hours video.

IOData GV-USB2 is an excellent card.

If you experience dropped/inserted frames the problem is in your workflow or in the user (you).

Also, it gives small distortion.

Only in your fantasy.

However, there is a serious issue with S-Video and component out signals - due to the dedicated amplifier, they produce hot, overexposed signal, which causes clipping on the next node (capture card or some other device).
Component output is not affected.

Complete non sense, but I see that Sharc already answered.

Capturing a native Y/C signal from component outout is never a good idea (only exception if the Y/C is outputted after an internal conversion in few devices, which is quite rare.)

Forgot to add - you need frame TBC. I use Sony RDR-HXD890. That really helps with signal levels and frame stabilization.

You need an external TBC only if the tapes require it. If not, is useless and introduce degradation, as any additional element in the capture chain.

As far as I know nobody produces good consumer capture cards nowadays as not that many people buy them.

False. IOData and Hauppauge USB-Live 2 are excellent cards, in production, and working with modern operative systems.

Generally I see 2 options.
1. To purchase one old but tested from LordSmurf. I don't know his prices, but what I do know, they require old OS, like Windows 7, or maybe even XP.
2. To purchase semi-professional card. They are supported, they work under modern OS. They are good quality. However, they don't like "drunk" signal. You have to make sure you have good frame TBC.

1. The Pinnacle 510/710 USB cards, are not better than GV-USB2 nor USB-Live2. See Alwin comparison and many other comparisons available. The ATI 600 USB/TV Wonder 600 is also not better, see a recent comparison from our videhelp friend here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AzINdXpnwCU just as one example.

2. The "semi professional" card are not suitable for consumer format capture, do not perform better in video quality and are more sensitive to input signal instability.

I don't want to recommend anything to anyone.

Goods choice!

However, I find it would be OK just to say what I use.
Right now I have "AJA KONE LHe+ - 0" and "Magewell Pro Capture AIO".

Which do not perform any better than GV-USB2 or USB-Live 2 for VHS/S-VHS capture.

[CaptureCraft]

I don't want to recommend anything to anyone.
However, I find it would be OK just to say what I use.
Right now I have "AJA KONE LHe+"

USD 1500.- vs USD 70.- Oh well. Out of range for most I guess, for capturing home VHS tapes.

Not sure where this USD 1500 came from.
Quick search on eBay shows 10 units available at US $44.00.

As far as I remember the schematic for ES-15, there is an amplifier only for dedicated S-Video out, which screws things up.
There is no amplifier for S-Video signal in SCART.

As I wrote the basic difference between S-Video vs S-video on SCART socket is the clamping circuit for DC restoration, not some amplifier gain.
If there is a level/gain shift it originates from the input circuits of the ES-15 (gain, AGC) and how it treats the signal coming from the VCR. Whatever, it's manageable.

I doubled checked the schematic. Yes, you're right - the 1µF capacitor is the problem here.
However, it doesn't clamp anything here. This capacitor creates an artificial zero, which floats up and down on change of brightness due to the signal's asymmetry.
That artificially takes the signal way beyond the specs, which, of course, causes the clamping in the capture card.
Obviously, the overall brightness is off too.
You can't fix or manage that.
The only proper way to use S-video is to take it from SCART.
The input AGC itself is not that horrible.
As a matter of fact I don't even feel it's work.

[Sharc]

I doubled checked the schematic. Yes, you're right - the 1µF capacitor is the problem here.....

The capacitor is not a problem, it is intentional because it is actually recommended engineering practice to interconnect devices via AC-coupling to prevent problematic DC loops (worst case damaging/burning electronics).
Any reasonalble capture card - including GV-USB2 and USB-live2 - cope well with this "signal floating up and down" situation. It's actually a basic task of the capture card to restore the DC-level of the Y-signal and hence stabilize the "black" level.
If you experienced problems with the standard S-Video with your setup, use the corresponding SCART port, that's perfectly fine and alleviates the task for the subsequent capture device. Some have reported "transient brightness pumping" for the standard S-Video connection when switching from full black to full white and vice versa. It's just unfortunate that NTSC versions of the ES-10/ES-15 do not provide SCART sockets. I don't know how the Y-signal has been engineered at their S-video DIN/Hosiden socket. Anyway, it doesn't matter much as capture cards should cope reasonably well with either situation.

[CaptureCraft]

I doubled checked the schematic. Yes, you're right - the 1µF capacitor is the problem here.....

The capacitor is not a problem, it is intentional because it is actually recommended engineering practice to interconnect devices via AC-coupling to prevent problematic DC loops (worst case damaging/burning electronics).
Any reasonalble capture card - including GV-USB2 and USB-live2 - cope well with this "signal floating up and down" situation. It's actually a basic task of the capture card to restore the DC-level of the Y-signal and hence stabilize the "black" level.
If you experienced problems with the standard S-Video with your setup, use the corresponding SCART port, that's perfectly fine and alleviates the task for the subsequent capture device. Some have reported "transient brightness pumping" for the standard S-Video connection when switching from full black to full white and vice versa. It's just unfortunate that NTSC versions of the ES-10/ES-15 do not provide SCART sockets. I don't know how the Y-signal has been engineered at their S-video DIN/Hosiden socket. Anyway, it doesn't matter much as capture cards should cope reasonably well with either situation.

Actually, the capacitor is the problem. Not the capacitor in general, but rather it's capacity - it's too small.
You're absolutely right - any capture card (or any other device) should be able to handle that kind of signal, and they do.
However, you have to take into account how exactly this mechanism works.
To properly handle this signal you have to have a reference point. And this point is the bottom of the sync pulse.
So, every sync pulse gives a new reference point. It means that the between two sync pulses the referential voltage cannot and should not be changed by either side.
However, because the capacitor is too small and the luma changes rapidly, the base line drifts within one field before reaching next sync pulse, which would set up the new proper reference point.

Hence the "transient brightness pumping", clipping, and other "fun" staff.

Yes, as previously suggested, you would need to use SCART port of PAL unit for both PAL and NTSC signals to avoid dedicated S-Video port.

[CaptureCraft]

The GV-USB2 is a mediocre capture card at best. It was giving me about 70 lost/duplicated frames on 1.5 hours video.

IOData GV-USB2 is an excellent card.

If you experience dropped/inserted frames the problem is in your workflow or in the user (you).

Also, it gives small distortion.

Only in your fantasy.

However, there is a serious issue with S-Video and component out signals - due to the dedicated amplifier, they produce hot, overexposed signal, which causes clipping on the next node (capture card or some other device).
Component output is not affected.

Complete non sense, but I see that Sharc already answered.

Capturing a native Y/C signal from component outout is never a good idea (only exception if the Y/C is outputted after an internal conversion in few devices, which is quite rare.)

Forgot to add - you need frame TBC. I use Sony RDR-HXD890. That really helps with signal levels and frame stabilization.

You need an external TBC only if the tapes require it. If not, is useless and introduce degradation, as any additional element in the capture chain.

As far as I know nobody produces good consumer capture cards nowadays as not that many people buy them.

False. IOData and Hauppauge USB-Live 2 are excellent cards, in production, and working with modern operative systems.

Generally I see 2 options.
1. To purchase one old but tested from LordSmurf. I don't know his prices, but what I do know, they require old OS, like Windows 7, or maybe even XP.
2. To purchase semi-professional card. They are supported, they work under modern OS. They are good quality. However, they don't like "drunk" signal. You have to make sure you have good frame TBC.

1. The Pinnacle 510/710 USB cards, are not better than GV-USB2 nor USB-Live2. See Alwin comparison and many other comparisons available. The ATI 600 USB/TV Wonder 600 is also not better, see a recent comparison from our videhelp friend here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AzINdXpnwCU just as one example.

2. The "semi professional" card are not suitable for consumer format capture, do not perform better in video quality and are more sensitive to input signal instability.

I don't want to recommend anything to anyone.

Goods choice!

However, I find it would be OK just to say what I use.
Right now I have "AJA KONE LHe+ - 0" and "Magewell Pro Capture AIO".

Which do not perform any better than GV-USB2 or USB-Live 2 for VHS/S-VHS capture.

Your answers are mostly BS as you don't provide anything to support your arguments.
Unlike you, I did all the tests with different cards and devices.
Also, it looks like you confuse component and composite signals.
And that post was an answer to another user. I didn't ask your opinion about my choices, so please keep it for yourself.