LG V281 DVD/VCR Combo USB Capture Card strange problem

[lollo]

And what are this "indipendent indications" in your analysis?

[lordsmurf]

Uncheck: drop frames when...

This is bad advice. It essentially disables dropped frame reporting. "If I close me eyes, you can't see me!"

Herewith:

No.

The below is correct for most USB cards:



And the blue box is the audio settings. This can vary wildly with the same card, but different OS, different drivers, different VirtualDub versions. You'll have to experiment, and note it usually only affects audio preview.

And yes, it does report such dropped frames, despite drop frames flag being unchecked.

No.

It does, but not as accurate.

I use the latest versions of VD2. I'm pretty sure a lot of things were fixed/changed since then.

No.

VirtualDub2 is the VirtualDub FilterModr renamed, and it was based on VirtualDub 1.10.x, which introduced capture errors. 1.10.x was more about filters, formats. Not capture.

The filters actually got worse in FilterMod, never fixed in 2. There are issues, such as the resize filter. I reported this for years to the dev, but he just ignored detailed bug reports.

(The Magewell card is sensitive to time errors, so still not convinced. Never mind)

Yes.

All HD cards are this way. SD was a poor afterthought feature.

[CaptureCraft]

And what are this "indipendent indications" in your analysis?

If you activated re-synchronization, you get Sync section on the right panel and you get Resample line in Audio section.
Your Relative Rate in Audio section would float up and down because of resampling. Without that it stays stable.
If you activate logging and get all audio logged, you can compare it to the audio length in captured file. With resampling they won't match.

[lollo]

To OP: as you can see, nobody agrees on Vdub timing settings. It has always been like that

[lollo]

And what are this "indipendent indications" in your analysis?

If you activated re-synchronization, you get Sync section on the right panel and you get Resample line in Audio section.
Your Relative Rate in Audio section would float up and down because of resampling. Without that it stays stable.
If you activate logging and get all audio logged, you can compare it to the audio length in captured file. With resampling they won't match.

That only show the audio resampling mechanism, which can be disable or not, but not the complete stream manipulation. You still do not know what's going under the level. But again, is only my guess.

[CaptureCraft]

And what are this "indipendent indications" in your analysis?

If you activated re-synchronization, you get Sync section on the right panel and you get Resample line in Audio section.
Your Relative Rate in Audio section would float up and down because of resampling. Without that it stays stable.
If you activate logging and get all audio logged, you can compare it to the audio length in captured file. With resampling they won't match.

That only show the audio resampling mechanism, which can be disable or not, but not the complete stream manipulation. You still do not know what's going under the level. But again, is only my guess.

What is the complete stream manipulation? What's there to manipulate with? On top of that, it should be something that CANNOT be verified afterwards using independent software, like MediaInfo, for example.

[lollo]

I mean silently dropping/introducing frames. Or skipping audio frames (we have non control over it). Maybe, just a guess.

MediaInfo??? That's only a flag reader, not a video analyzer, it has no idea about what is really inside an audio/video stream!

[CaptureCraft]

I mean silently dropping/introducing frames. Or skipping audio frames (we have non control over it). Maybe, just a guess.

MediaInfo??? That's only a flag reader, not a video analyzer, it has no idea about what is really inside an audio/video stream!

Why would it silently drop/insert frames? Have anyone caught VD on that?
Also, you were talking about stream manipulation, like something global, now you're back to frame level.

[lollo]

Why would it silently drop/insert frames? Have anyone caught VD on that?

Yes, I have seen it, but really depending on settings. And on doom9 forums there were some posts about it in the past.

Also, you were talking about stream manipulation, like something global, now you're back to frame level.

Ok, this discussion is becoming useless: global versus frame level (???), speculations (also on my side) instead of facts.

Let's stop here.

You are happy with your Vdub timing settings and your a/v synch captures, that's fine! (My first answer to the original question about capture software was different anyhow, so really all this debate is not important for me)

[rgr]

If you do not enable them, Vdub will drop the frames without reporting!

BS. Bad as usual. When selected, VDub drops frames when - suprprise! - "they are too close together".

[rgr]

I'm pretty happy with VD with all the artificial synchronization turned off.
Just give me all the video frames and give me all the audio.

That's all that matters (if they are in synch)!

Agreed!
The question is what makes them out of sync.
If you eliminate all the problems, then you're golden and you don't need to apply extra effort for synchronization!

What do you use for capture?

[rgr]

Uncheck: drop frames when...

This is bad advice. It essentially disables dropped frame reporting. "If I close me eyes, you can't see me!"

No, this disables frame dropping when they are (for some reason) too close.
Of course there will be no report then because the frames will not be dropped. You are confusing effect with cause.
(The only exception might be when you have "resync video" set, but I've never checked that.)
The option should be disabled.

The below is correct for most USB cards:

Force audio clock should be disabled, although it doesn't really matter.

"Do not resync" is a completely wrong setting - always "resample audio". Unless you have a capture device that already does this. Most don't.

[rgr]

I mean silently dropping/introducing frames. Or skipping audio frames (we have non control over it). Maybe, just a guess.

VirtualDub is not AmarecTV - it doesn't silently drop frames, giving the user the false impression that all frames have been captured.
If you set "sync audio" you'll have all the video frames, and the audio frames will be resampled accordingly.
If you set "sync video" it drops video frames to match the video to the audio (similar to AmarecTV).
"Do not resync" - set it when the device is already matching the video and audio for you (either via dropped/inserted frames or audio resample).

[rgr]

I use the latest versions of VD2. I'm pretty sure a lot of things were fixed/changed since then.

No.

VirtualDub2 is the VirtualDub FilterModr renamed, and it was based on VirtualDub 1.10.x, which introduced capture errors. 1.10.x was more about filters, formats. Not capture.

The capture module has been virtually untouched since 1.9.3, apart from minor fixes. And capture works just as well - VDub2 (the latest version) was the only one that could capture all frames and not lose any, and on worse hardware it lost 2x fewer frames than AmarecTV.

[CaptureCraft]

I'm pretty happy with VD with all the artificial synchronization turned off.
Just give me all the video frames and give me all the audio.

That's all that matters (if they are in synch)!

Agreed!
The question is what makes them out of sync.
If you eliminate all the problems, then you're golden and you don't need to apply extra effort for synchronization!

What do you use for capture?

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/421026-LG-V281-DVD-VCR-Combo-USB-Capture-Card-stra...e2#post2802780

[rgr]

I'm pretty happy with VD with all the artificial synchronization turned off.
Just give me all the video frames and give me all the audio.

That's all that matters (if they are in synch)!

Agreed!
The question is what makes them out of sync.
If you eliminate all the problems, then you're golden and you don't need to apply extra effort for synchronization!

What do you use for capture?

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/421026-LG-V281-DVD-VCR-Combo-USB-Capture-Card-stra...e2#post2802780

So if you have the correct sync on "Dont sync", then the card does it automatically. Either by dropping frames or by resampling the audio. The latter would obviously be better.

[CaptureCraft]

I'm pretty happy with VD with all the artificial synchronization turned off.
Just give me all the video frames and give me all the audio.

That's all that matters (if they are in synch)!

Agreed!
The question is what makes them out of sync.
If you eliminate all the problems, then you're golden and you don't need to apply extra effort for synchronization!

What do you use for capture?

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/421026-LG-V281-DVD-VCR-Combo-USB-Capture-Card-stra...e2#post2802780

So if you have the correct sync on "Dont sync", then the card does it automatically. Either by dropping frames or by resampling the audio. The latter would obviously be better.

What makes you think that card (actually many different cards) does any of these things?
I mean why it even has to do it?

[Sharc]

... as you can see, nobody agrees on Vdub timing settings. It has always been like that

Love it! To each his own

[VHS-Digital-Buddy]

Ok, here we go again.

I made 4 recordings. 2x Roxio, 2x Nero. Much smaller file sizes. Roughly 30 seconds each. All raw copies.

Here is the link:
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1KG3b_rfPtJ3rCr1oGt43PNG9q7FtMye7

Some stats:

FILM (NTSC)

b66_Roxio - 104 frames dropped. 0 frames inserted. Sync: VT adjust +0ms, Current error 913ms
b66_Nero - 0 frames dropped. 0 frames inserted. Sync: VT adjust +0ms, Current error 0ms


Business Tape (PAL)

qoq_Roxio - 0 frames dropped. 1 frames inserted. Sync: VT adjust +0ms, Current error -7ms
qoq_Nero - 0 frames dropped. 0 frames inserted. Sync: VT adjust +0ms, Current error -1ms


For some reason Nero records the film in black and white. The rest of the recordings are in colour. Also, Video-Capture Pin-Video Standard stays "None" with Nero for some reason.


Thanks for any advice.

[rgr]

What makes you think that card (actually many different cards) does any of these things?
I mean why it even has to do it?

Because frames (fields) from analog sources do not flow into the computer at identical intervals.

[CaptureCraft]

What makes you think that card (actually many different cards) does any of these things?
I mean why it even has to do it?

Because frames (fields) from analog sources do not flow into the computer at identical intervals.

Yes, so? It is not like each frame will have its own FPS.

[rgr]

Ok, here we go again.

I made 4 recordings. 2x Roxio, 2x Nero. Much smaller file sizes. Roughly 30 seconds each. All raw copies.

Here is the link:
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1KG3b_rfPtJ3rCr1oGt43PNG9q7FtMye7

Some stats:

FILM (NTSC)

b66_Roxio - 104 frames dropped. 0 frames inserted. Sync: VT adjust +0ms, Current error 913ms
b66_Nero - 0 frames dropped. 0 frames inserted. Sync: VT adjust +0ms, Current error 0ms


Business Tape (PAL)

qoq_Roxio - 0 frames dropped. 1 frames inserted. Sync: VT adjust +0ms, Current error -7ms
qoq_Nero - 0 frames dropped. 0 frames inserted. Sync: VT adjust +0ms, Current error -1ms


For some reason Nero records the film in black and white. The rest of the recordings are in colour. Also, Video-Capture Pin-Video Standard stays "None" with Nero for some reason.


Thanks for any advice.

Nero (PAL) (as I wrote earlier) not only every other field is dropped and replaced by previous field, but you can also see additional dropped frames.
Throw it away.
If you have an enemy, give it to him.

[rgr]

What makes you think that card (actually many different cards) does any of these things?
I mean why it even has to do it?

Because frames (fields) from analog sources do not flow into the computer at identical intervals.

Yes, so? It is not like each frame will have its own FPS.

Yes, it does. This is called a jitter (or rather a time base error or time base instability).

[CaptureCraft]

What makes you think that card (actually many different cards) does any of these things?
I mean why it even has to do it?

Because frames (fields) from analog sources do not flow into the computer at identical intervals.

Yes, so? It is not like each frame will have its own FPS.

Yes, it does.

Not in VirtualDub.
Your jitter doesn't go anywhere.

[Sharc]

Ok, here we go again.

Thanks for any advice.

OMG. I just took a quick look: all your new captures have (almost) all flaws and issues I can think of.
The "best watchable" - if at all - is the B&W b66_Nero IMO which got converted from 24fps->30fps progressive by frame repeat patterns like abcdd efghh ....
Not a very helpful comment I know, but it's time here to

[lollo]

BS. Bad as usual. When selected, VDub drops frames when - suprprise! - "they are too close together".

Nope. The side effect extends beyond "what is written on the menu", because any of Vdub options are influenced by the rest of the settings.

VirtualDub is not AmarecTV - it doesn't silently drop frames, giving the user the false impression that all frames have been captured.
If you set "sync audio" you'll have all the video frames, and the audio frames will be resampled accordingly.
If you set "sync video" it drops video frames to match the video to the audio (similar to AmarecTV).
"Do not resync" - set it when the device is already matching the video and audio for you (either via dropped/inserted frames or audio resample).

Once more, VirtuaDub has been designed for a time where audio and video were being captured using two separated cards. Each card had its own accurate clock, and then timing reference, based on a quartz oscillatator. But between two accurate clocks from different source there is skew and relative jitter (the intrinsic long term jitter or phase noise does not play a role here).
That's why in VirtualDub menu there are options syncronize video to audio or syncronize audio to video.

Then, when the new "all-in-one" cards were available on the market, the VirtualDub option "automatically disable resynch when integrated audio/video is detected" has been introduced, because the clock of a card having audio and video capture on board is only one, in an attempt to disable potentially useless tasks and options.

Guess what? This option does not completely act as the name suggests (as the other options in VirtualDub), and even if you enable it, some sort of resampling is always happening.

AmarecTV mechanism is different and does not rely on legacy from the past and patch/workarouns applied on top of them: to keep audio and video in synch it drops frames when necessary, and most of the time a frame is inserted (duplicated) later to compensate (but not always).
The result is what can be read in the forums: excellent performances reported by many users across many different cases.

As I explained many times, AmarecTV writes a detailed report on the actions takes, frame by frame. Anyone can read and process this log file with basic math tools and have a clear picture of what happens in the capturing phase. And will find there all the frames, one by one, in the incoming video stream and the audio packets, together with all necessary timing information to rebuild the picture.
Of course, what has been lost prior to arrive to the capture software layer is invisible, but that's another story.

VDub2 (the latest version) was the only one that could capture all frames and not lose any, and on worse hardware it lost 2x fewer frames than AmarecTV.

In your crap test maybe, not in the real world.

Going back to the original question from the OP: I recommend starting with AmarecTV (unless you own/buy an old AIW card paired with a high-end sound card), but always remember that the eincoming signal should be time base corrected by default, and "more time base corrected" for bad tapes, because significant errors in the srream cannot bne really fixed by any software (few exceptions when using cards with intrinsic TBC capabilities, but, again, that's another story)

[lollo]

Ok, here we go again.

I made 4 recordings. 2x Roxio, 2x Nero. Much smaller file sizes. Roughly 30 seconds each. All raw copies.

Thanks for any advice.

Very bad

Before upgrading your workflow (but capturing both PAL and NTSC requires additional effort, one-in-all machine is not the best), the first thing you can try is to find at low cost a specific DVD-Recorder such as Panasonic ES-10/ES-15 and see if the improvement they bring is acceptable for you.

[rgr]

What makes you think that card (actually many different cards) does any of these things?
I mean why it even has to do it?

Because frames (fields) from analog sources do not flow into the computer at identical intervals.

Yes, so? It is not like each frame will have its own FPS.

Yes, it does.

Not in VirtualDub.
Your jitter doesn't go anywhere.

Is VirtualDub breaking the laws of physics? 🤣 You simply have no idea how it works.

[rgr]

AmarecTV mechanism is different and does not rely on legacy from the past and patch/workarouns applied on top of them: to keep audio and video in synch it drops frames when necessary, and most of the time a frame is inserted (duplicated) later to compensate (but not always).
The result is what can be read in the forums: excellent performances reported by many users across many different cases.

As I explained many times, AmarecTV writes a detailed report on the actions takes, frame by frame.

This nonsense again

And that's why AmarecTV is such crap - it matches the video by deleting frames (or inserting duplicates).

Of course, there will be 0 lost frames in the reports, because they are probably all captured and only then deleted (of course, as a typical blind and stupid fanatic, you will deny it )

VirtualDub does it much better - resamples the audio to match the correct FPS. That's why in VDub you have all the frames preserved, they are not lost forever.

VDub2 (the latest version) was the only one that could capture all frames and not lose any, and on worse hardware it lost 2x fewer frames than AmarecTV.

In your crap test maybe, not in the real world.

I know, it must be painful when you drop frames like crazy and I have them all "The test sucks because it didn't lose any frames" --> you're hitting a new low

[Sharc]

@rgr: why are you derailing almost every thread into an endless and out-of-context debate about AmarecTV vs Vdub, as soon as AmarecTV pops up somewhere?