Need the Net, but Have No Money

[pchan]

One thing might be I can do most of what I need to do with the Slimjet browser and that isn't a "heavy" browser and maybe that helps speed things up.

Along with just about every browser it's Chromium based. Edge, Brave, Opera.... and of course Chrome are Chromium. If you want an analogy Chromium is the chassis and drivetrain. The different browsers add the bells and whistles. The only major browsers not using Chromium are Firefox and Safari.

https://www.chromium.org/Home/

The older versions Slimjet has listed compatible with Win7 use the last version of Chromium compatible with Win7 which is from 2023.

Just FYI but many sites will block older versions of browsers/OS simply because the majority of that traffic is bot traffic from older outdated machines that have been compromised.

You are fighting an uphill battle with Win7 and it's only going to get worse as time progresses. The only real choice is install Linux.

I tried using Windows Vista as long as I could until there was no more browser support. I gave away the Acer laptop and be done with it. Now, there is good OS alternative i.e. Linux especially Linux Mint. It is as good as Windows and it even detects my WIFI Brother printer and load the driver automatically(it's better than Windows 10). It's a losing battle to keep holding to Windows 7.

[GAhere]

I use a command prompt shortcut on all units for clearing the clipboard, so that is just one click. AND, one can learn a lot by watching how much a given site has put on one's clipboard.

Keeping multiple tabs to a minimum is a habit from way back. In fact, I still remember the TRS80 days, when you entered a command and then went and made a sandwich and when you got back it MIGHT be finished doing what you asked it to do.

I simply don't rush myself or my computer, unless it was a bad shake we just had and I want to know where the epicenter was and how deep. Then I will rush a given computer.

Basically it is a "Hobby" that consumes time, energy to keep you busy.

Nothing wrong with a hobby but then again, trying to keep the Win7 PCs alive on on the net is the same thing as attempting to connect and browse the net with your TRS80s.. After all the TRS 80s ARE computers.. and they ARE obsolete with zero browser support.

I might be repeating a bit of personal history, but I started out as a professional in aviation and we are super strict in aviation about check sheets and log books and being slow and careful. And that is also where I learned about "machines" being happy or not. After you have flown a given bird a number of times you can get a feel for its style. In fact, there is a term we use in aviation - a hanger queen - because it seems in every military unit you may fly for there is that one bird that is always glitchy and eventually that becomes the one that gives up a certain piece of equipment in an emergency and logistics can't get you the part fast enough.

Bottom line, I treat all computers and use them the same way, no matter what. I don't mind "go slow".

Well, I treat all machines carefully, as if they understand what I'm saying. Yes, I sometimes talk to machines. You should see me in convenience stores when I talk back to those new machines that take your money. I still haven't gotten an answer why all those machines have female voices here in Japan. Actually, Alps supermarket now has those style machines, too.

Computers are really a pile of silicone, copper, gold, lead, tin and plastic, not really a "machine" as a "machine" typically implies more things that move and spin than a couple of fans and hard drive. They are dumb, stump dumb all by their selves and in programming classes I had are only as smart as the one that wrote the programs it uses and no more.

As far as TRS80s, no museum value, any computer museum will simply turn away those donations as Radio Shack sold so many of them the market was flooded and saturated. Same goes for Timex Sinclairs, Ataria 400 and 800, Comodare VIC and 64 and industrial version the "PET".. Even the venerable humble IBM 5150 (AKA the PC), XT and AT (all early x86 series) which ran on what we know as DOS which IS still the underpinnings of the modern OS when know as XP all the way to W11.. the market was flooded.. Granted the underpinnings have been fine tuned and adjusted and vastly improved over the DOS Version 1, 2, 3, 6.

Each version serves a purpose for a short time then one must move on as newer designs in hardware and software WILL replace the older software and hardware that is no longer being developed.

A PC is more of an "appliance", it will reach it's "end of Life" and will require replacement just like an appliance.. Yours are on the edge of that cliffside of no longer being useful for Internet use..

Nothing says you can't keep using them after the online websites start failing, you can use them for other stuff like writing documents play games or creating your own computer museum..

As far as "millions" of people not being able to access Yahoo mail via Win7, I have my doubts.. I suspect they too have moved on to a newer supported OS with a newer supported browser. Win7 was released in 2009 and official extended (paid) support was end of life in 2020.. That is 6 yrs ago.

You would have to living under a rock to never have heard that Win7 for online purposes is dying on the vine..

You have done well to keep it online (with more effort than I would bother with), but eventually the reality is websites will slowly stop responding to 115 ESR period.

I would like to help you however, the only options you have is

1 Continue to do nothing and complain that websites don't work (IE vent) but don't play the poor card, free to near free modern PCs with Win10 or Win11 are easy to find. Currently there is a very nice modern laptop listed on my local Craigslist for asking price of $60 (US) that could keep you online for many yrs.. One can haggle on the price and perhaps get it a bit cheaper.


[Attachment 91240 - Click to enlarge]

Myself, I have found hoards of free computers, the last bunch filled full size a 3/4 ton pickup bed.. Netted a bunch of good working Intel i3 and i5 desktop/tower and mini desktops along with some older working laptops.

2 try r3dfox (a FF variant) which is a ported modern version of Firefox 147 which has been modified to install on Win7

3 Check security settings in Win7 AND ff 115 ESR (32 bit may not have higher security protocols enabled by default)

4 Move on to much newer PC capable of Win10 at a minimum.

[thecoalman]

...and it even detects my WIFI Brother printer and load the driver automatically(it's better than Windows 10)..

I have a Brother laser jet, no problems either however Brother provides native Linux drivers. Some printers aren't exactly plug and play. Other hardware that is less than Linux friendly is Logitech if you are power user. You'll get basic functionality but if you have a device with advanced functionality you need to install Solarr or similar software.

The only real problem I've had is with initial install for Mint. I wrote the stick per their instructions and it booted from USB only once. Second boot it was complaining about missing file. I have no idea why I was getting this error "Failed to open \\EFI\\BOOT\\mmx64.efi - Not Found". the second time around. The solution to this was using Rufus in ISO mode. Then open the stick with Windows file explorer, make a copy of EFI/boot/grubx64.efi and rename it to mmx64.efi.

The second hiccup was graphic drivers not loading with secure boot enabled. Once I got past the error I mistakenly installed with secure boot disabled as this was one of the suggestions to get around the missing file error, I never set it back. This didn't fix the missing file error and then caused graphic drivers to not be loaded once secure boot was enabled. Solution to this was simply installing Mint from scratch with secure boot enabled.

As far as software goes no problems there. Only thing I miss is Notepad++ because I have been using it forever. The Linux port is missing a key functionality, search in directories. Another app I use frequently is file comparison. I was using Winmerge for Windows, I've only used it once but Meld is superior.

[GAhere]

@ProJiJi Did you perhaps accidentally enable Two Step Authentication in Yahoo Mail by chance?

One would hope that Yahoo was smart enough to not allow that to be activated without you including a valid method for getting the code..

Basically two step requires an additional verification code which typically can be a phone number that accepts SMS texts and you get a verification number that you must enter..

Pretty much every "secure" website like mail and banking either requires this or will attempt to trick/force you to do this.. They make it very easy to accidentally force it by making you opt out.

[ProJiJi]

I'm very likely repeating myself here, and I'm sorry for that; as I have had to participate in multiple discussions on many sites over the past year relating to the sudden uptick in bot trouble; I was pretty much out of all loops on the Net until maybe March or so last year.

Upon some requests for assistance on certain security work I think about mid 2025 I started spotting more than I expected folks that were also using this same setup of an older Windows 7 unit and I collected some data, but stashed it away because it was just collected from curiosity and not too important back about July/August of last year.

But just now I decided to take another quick look and this is just one result and I use this here because the editors/writers of that piece added many references to verify their points/numbers:

October 2025
https://www.gbnews.com/tech/windows7-market-share-increase-statcounter

According to StatCounter, Windows 7 has been rapidly gaining market share in recent weeks — a full five years after support for the desktop operating system was officially terminated. At the latest count, Windows 7 is now used by some 22.65% of all Windows PCs worldwide. That's an increase from the 18.97% just a little over a month ago.

And then scrolling down their page is this:

So, why has there been a recent surge?

It appears that Asia is the main area of the world responsible for the increase, making up 40% of all users currently using Windows 7.

“It’s not about preference as much as practicality,” says Dr Lian Zhou, a digital infrastructure researcher at the National University of Singapore, told Indian Reference Review. “In rural areas or public institutions with tight budgets, reactivating old machines with Windows 7 is often the only viable choice.”

I can understand why so many in the rich nations around the planet want to keep pushing this narrative that we must follow the leader (the tech giants) and keep buying into this-or-that about how websites won't let those using the older Windows 7 units onto their websites, but "Have No Money" was a key point of the title of this thread and now I'll ask you to give thought to what Dr. Zhou has asserted.

And if that isn't enough, I could find a number of other "experts" that are also indicating that, as of late, there are MORE people going back to Windows 7 for reasons other than money.

Many, many people are getting fed up with the intrusive methods that Microsoft has become more and more reliant upon to keep their shareholders happy.

Right now a lot of people can't figure out Linux/Debian because for some reason those folks at Linux/Debian feel their HowTo sheets are just fine and the answers I am getting from them over at their site is if you don't understand what is already out there, too bad. But I did a good 20 to 30 hours total of research and the HowTo sheets and such are NOT good enough, so people are simply going to revert back to Windows 7 and the number over the past 6 months or so prove that.

Now in one tech Community I recently was participating in I suddenly realized the key point that could be made and named it "The Apollo 13 Moment" because that fit exactly.

In that situation there were three highly trained, intelligent crew members up there in that broken spacecraft and another hundred or more highly trained, intelligent people down on Earth and they had a crisis inside the crisis; they had to get the air scrubbers from one spacecraft to combine with the other spacecraft, or those three up there in space would be dead within hours.

End result was the folks on the ground came up with a very detailed step-by-step way of accomplishing that task and so that crisis within the overall crisis was solved. Key is very detailed and easy to communicate instructions that were perfect in almost every way, not because the people doing the communicating and the people doing the listening were stupid, or not tech experienced; but because lives were at risk and the instructions were a one-off. They screw up and three people are dead. Well, that very same style of step-by-step could be used here on the surface of the planet from tech-smart folks to those that are not so tech-smart and ditch that uppity-up attitude that if you don't understand, then stuff it.

What I get when I go into these tech Communities is a kind of snobbish style of thinking from highly motivated, intelligent tech folks that state if a potential customer can't understand these instructions that customer shouldn't use this system. The the management and PR folks of the motivated, intelligent tech teams put out publications about how easy it is to use this-or-that OS. We read "Come Join Us and Use Linux. Use Debian." But those new manuals are not at par with "The Apollo 13 Moment". The tech gurus under those managers look down on people who can't read code/ Who can't handle a terminal. Why can't they? Because the manuals are simply not showing enough graphics.

I have some old manuals from about 20 years or so ago that are really good. I have found a couple sites where the manuals do have a fair bit of graphics that can aid the novice. But after about 20 hours of the search I found no Linux/Debian manuals that would match the level of sophistication that used to be put into manuals way back. I mean in one package. Not having to go there; go here; go over there; and then put it all together yourself to figure out how to use a given system.

I don't think top tech folks of the younger generation even know HOW to explain things to a novice. I know, that reads as my being mean, but I can prove that. I have the logs. I have the screenshots. I have a mess of saves in one form or another - a lot of pdf saves.

There are millions of not-at-all rich novice customers around the planet and they would jump at a chance to have a useful Linux/Debian unit, IF somebody would put together a Garth Anderson style online manual for them. (I think that was his name.)

We had a manual put together online here in Japan some 20 or 30 years ago that was fantastic at teaching Linux to people, but that isn't so good for new systems.

Folks, I have been doing the necessary studying and let me show you just a sample of just one recent folder:

[ProJiJi]

Oh yes, to answer one thought somebody had; I have never allowed the two-step verification system on any account except one and just a few days ago I removed that one. That was GMail. In my opinion that two-step verification system is just another scam. High class scam, for sure; but a scam.

What I have noticed over the years is that each new "security" system requires you add a new way to connect one account/device to another.

That is a lot of what is hiding behind that security curtain, data gathering.

Anyway, two-step verification isn't what is stopping the Yahoo access. Sorry for the rant, but I am so fed up with the return of serfdom to humans on Earth. That is EXACTLY what is happening, and the new KINGS and LORDS are the tech owners.

But to be one of the "IN CROWD" you best follow the leader and walk-the-walk and talk-the-talk or you are a "ProJiJi" who is off his rocker and too old and will soon be gone, anyway.

[ProJiJi]

By the way, this from GAhere, deserves attention on its own; a post set aside from all others that will follow as I study what you folks have written.

They make it very easy to accidentally force it by making you opt out.

Why that has not been made illegal is a question I've thought about frequently, but as I am so far from my own nation I don't really have any way to ask some lawmaker type.

Tagged to that should be the adverts for some other types of services not related to supposed security that has that "Close" thingy on it and will activate something if you click on that.

I can't really remember when all this trickery started, but . . . well, I simply don't know.

But there has to be some researcher, or research team, that has logs on all this. Where's the Ralph Nader of the Internet?

What is even more interesting, in a bad way, is the search engines are not allowing that sort of stuff to be easily found, IF one goes searching for it. I have a cute response on another tech site from a Mod Squad member who didn't seem to like something I posted and one point she/he made was that Google didn't have the time to set search results to keep some stuff hidden. That's not true.

You see that list of just a few files I collected over the past couple weeks and you'll notice in just those few files there are a lot of MP4 files. Well, Google loves to point people at YouTube stuff, even if there is something better suited to answer a query. That "something" might be found on Page 10. They also get paid to push other sites ahead of what might really be an answer.

And they sure will stifle stuff they flat out don't like. When you try to study Linux stuff on a Google search engine, even using the advanced tool, it isn't easy to get to "good" stuff.

So trying to find a Ralph Nader of the Net on a Google search engine wouldn't be easy, I don't suppose.

And a whole bunch of tech sites don't like my style, because it isn't slanted in favor of Microsoft or Google or other big tech folks. And those are the very folks that pay money for a successful site to place adverts.

I still belong to a small group of retired Google folks and a couple in the group are still active at Google and even some of them won't discuss in our private group some of what goes on at Google. And not just because they signed that confidentiality agreement. There really is some fear in some knowing type folks that know they could be treated in a mighty nasty way by big tech.

And the little tech bosses can be just as bad. When you get into community life on the Net, you really are back in the Middle Ages, all over again. No need to study the history books about the Middle Ages. Just join a Net Community and spit out the opposite view of what is popular at any given frame of time and guess what; bye-bye.

Anyway, hit "Close" for the service offered or an advert and "We Got You" should be against the law in North America, in the EU, here in Japan, any of those supposedly "free" brick-and-mortar social structures around the planet.

Is it?

[ProJiJi]

I guess I'm working backwards for a bit.

thecoalman, you got that quote box thingy a bit turned around in your recent post.

Post number 62, GAhere, is sort of bypassing a very busy thread right here in this Community:
Windows 7 Image Updater ... September 2017 thru February 2026.

There seem to be a lot of folks right here in our Community interested in using Windows 7, BUT they are using much more modern hardware than I am at present. And I am fully aware of the pitfalls related to using old hardware.

BUT I have been trying to focus on why we haven't seen any notification from Yahoo about some sort of change.

You noted my complaining and then used the plural form "websites" but I am not recalling when I posted complaints about other websites. I could have forgotten, true. As far as I am aware, I only have to use a FireFox 115 or this Supermium32 and I can get on any website, except Yahoo.

But I suspect I am forgetting that you have outlined your view in some previous post here that you don't agree that Yahoo should be held to account for no notification about changes in security parameters, correct?

So no problem there. You have a different view of priorities than I have.

But that view that we are required to march to the beat of the Big Gals/Guys leading us down this mighty Net Highway is fraught with danger. What if Google suddenly, without warning, decided if you don't have Windows 11 you are not going to be able to access any Google service, including GMail? Big Gals/Guys Google and Microsoft make a backroom deal to get Windows 11 profitable in the future because so many people don't like it and so BAM! Google closes the door and no announcement.

According to your point of view, GAhere, that is just fine, right?

Or would you then argue that I am making a situation too big and so it would never happen? Too much damage would result if that Google Slamming That Door Shut were to happen, so it won't happen.

But you are of the view that the exact same style is okay for Yahoo to do it. Why? Because fewer people are inconvenienced?

Whether it is the Big One with Google and Microsoft or the Little One with Yahoo, it is the exact same MO - the exact same Method of Operation. But because fewer little people are hurt by the Little One, it is okay, yes?

Now, I am an old man, so I can offer that if we had that style of thinking back in the early 70s in the auto industry, that Pinto would have continued to be sold until more people got killed.

If you unlock the door to bad stuff being done and it then gets kicked in by some Big Gal/Guy, you can't then complain; because you unlocked the door.

Just because only one million customers are affected instead of one hundred million, doesn't make it right.

But that's just my view. Our views on this one are obviously different. No sweat.

By the way, I do appreciate that you taught me my TRS80 can't be used to watch YouTube. Well, you didn't point that teaching directly at YouTube, but I got that lesson. Thank you.

Oh yes, and that mention of a 3/4 ton pickup full of old computers is intriguing, but here in Japan, you best be a licensed garbage type entity to be doing something like that. Very, very strict laws here about garbage. if we want to throw away a computer we have to pay the city/town some money to get a tag to put on it before we put it out on a certain day of the week to have it picked up. But there are excellent recycle shops that do sell very inexpensive units, when one wants to get newer hardware and not pay that big money at Yodobashi Camera or Bic camera, and the others.

And I did get into one of my Yahoo accounts a few days ago using Bookwormpup64 on another Windows 7 32-bit unit that I suppose was 64-bit "capable" enough to allow the use of that BkWorm OS; portable on a stick. But that was what I was writing about in the other thread. Here I wanted to focus on what Dr. Zhou has cited. As have other intellects in this business.

If you want to clash with Dr. Zhou on this issue, please go for it.

Maybe you'd like to go into the back country of some nation like Thailand, or Cambodia, or many areas of mainland China, where they really, really do not have that 3/4 ton truck full of hardware and sure don't have money to buy even a used piece of equipment, if they even have a retailer near their town or village that sells recycled equipment.

And that is just one small area of the planet.

But just a million people in the grand scheme of things in your area of the planet isn't such a big deal, yes?

[Brazil]

bla

No offense but it would take you less time to try R3dfox than to write half a book in each of your posts.

R3dfox:
https://github.com/Eclipse-Community/r3dfox
Direct link to latest 32-bit version:
https://github.com/Eclipse-Community/r3dfox/releases/download/v147.0.1-1/r3dfox-147.0.....installer.exe

Try it and report back, please! PLEASE!

[ProJiJi]

bla

I honestly thought I had maintained a polite posture throughout my posts and for all my sheep pals I would like to correct that misrepresentation of our sheep language; science known as 'bleating' but to you humans we are said to use BAA. Not BLA.

Or maybe you were thinking about that fella you can see in that image down below that covered the Boyington slot of that show, which was Baa Baa ... in their first season - - - and those were some "Sheep" that were some nasty folks in that series. It was that combination of the wrong vocabulary usage (should be baa) and that "report back" that reminded me of that series. Can't say as I often was given that order when I was on active duty: "Report back to me ASAP!" You do out rank me, don't you, Brazil? You write like you do. One thing is obvious, though; you don't read too well. You can't make it to field officer rank if you don't improve your reading skills.

Still, I guess I better go back and see where I messed up and wasn't polite with my typing.

[thecoalman]

And if that isn't enough, I could find a number of other "experts" that are also indicating that, as of late, there are MORE people going back to Windows 7 for reasons other than money.

Many, many people are getting fed up with the intrusive methods that Microsoft has become more and more reliant upon to keep their shareholders happy.

So I'm mad at Ford and to show my displeasure I go acquire a Model T? If I'm using that for my daily driver the only one getting punished is me. It's very good analogy for your case.

That's crazy when there is a free modern alternative available not made by Ford. Avoid all the hassle and throw the finger to "Ford".

[Brazil]

Can't say as I often was given that order when I was on active duty: "Report back to me ASAP!"
I better go back and see where I messed up and wasn't polite with my typing.

I was polite as well. I didn't say "ASAP" but "Please". Twice.
You've been advised by at least three people to try R3dfox v147 but you didn't, yet. You ask for help but it looks like you don't do anything.
Do you expect any kind of magic ?

[Columbo]

He's a troll. He's doing the same crap over at doom9 too.

[ProJiJi]

And if that isn't enough, I could find a number of other "experts" that are also indicating that, as of late, there are MORE people going back to Windows 7 for reasons other than money.

Many, many people are getting fed up with the intrusive methods that Microsoft has become more and more reliant upon to keep their shareholders happy.

So I'm mad at Ford and to show my displeasure I go acquire a Model T? If I'm using that for my daily driver the only one getting punished is me. It's very good analogy for your case.

That's crazy when there is a free modern alternative available not made by Ford. Avoid all the hassle and throw the finger to "Ford".

You go from the data gathering of modern-day tech companies that is a hot topic with many intellects all over the planet, to a reference to the Model-T; and compare displeasure of a tech company's MO to something Henry Ford accomplished? That is an interesting lesson I need to remember.

I notice that you didn't bother to correct your post I made mention of. You know, where you misquoted me! Doing a misquote in both the brick-and-mortar world AND in an online community is usually frowned upon. But you felt it was okay to ignore my mention of that, right?

By the way, do you know what the biggest problem was with Ford's work back then with that Model-T? Very few paved roads. If you had complaints back then, it would have been about the lack of roads. Not the vehicle.

Anyway, fix that misquote, before I report that, which I haven't done, yet. Thought I was being polite by simply mentioning it and not reporting it.

And, Brazil, you were polite? You summarized my writing with "bla" - - - and in your circle of friends/colleagues that is not being impolite? Thank you for that lesson.

[ProJiJi]

My goodness, you folks are not so good at denigrating another human, are you? Gottta pull out that lame stuff, which includes that cute word "troll".

You see, if you had been a bit more clever you'd have wondered about Dr. Zhou, as I did after I did that post. I had to get back to other tasks, but I had something nagging me, and it relates directly to your work over at phpBB, thecoalman.

You see, some of us in security had figured out that a whole bunch of those bots were initially coming out of Singapore last year and then making it appear they were actually based in other countries, especially other Asian nations. You saw that IP list posted about March or April of last year, thecoalman.

Well, one in our team had done some research on User Agent data and I remembered that Windows 7 had been a key factor in some of the results of that research.

Well, last night and early this morning I have connected those numbers Dr. Zhou published as very likely being connected to that bot "factory" that used to be in Singapore.

It's since been moved.

BUT - BUT - BUT --- if you folks were a little more diligent in your character assassination attempts you'd have fired something at me other than blanks.

And I couldn't help but notice that nobody commented about all those Video Help Community members posting in that other thread that has been going strong for over seven years and that thread’s purpose is to allow folks to use Windows 7. No comments from any of you on that one?

Just denigrate the bearer of the information you don't like to read? Even if we toss Dr. Zhou's research notes into the trash, we still have an odd bit of information that is fact; and fact proven right here at Video Help - - - a lot of folks are turning BACK to Windows 7. More than one would expect, if that operating system is - - - well, all those adjectives y'all like to use don't need repeating.

And the reason I made mention of some folks (that's now plural, you'll notice) - - - made mention of some folks' reading skills; I already wrote that I used Bookwormpup64 on another Windows 7 machine and got into the target Yahoo account.

And I did try to refocus on the lack of awareness by some of y'all of the facts on the ground in non-rich nations in back areas where they just ain't got the money you folks got. And it is so very obvious so many of you folks don't much care about that, do you?

And I made that point about folks with “No Money” a key issue in this thread right up there in the title. Must be kind of fun to live in a bubble.

Not that there is anything at all wrong with becoming successful and earning such that you can retire comfortably, but to ignore the have-nots is . . . Well, you folks like to throw darts at others, so you choose what adjective fits.

But I understand there is, for example, a large homeless camp of a sorts in a very rich city in California, LA, and I wonder if some of them can only afford that used Windows 7 laptop they might have been carrying around from one homeless camp to another, if they have some way to connect to the Net. One homeless shelter to another, if they can connect to the Net. Any of you rich folks care anything about them? Or is that in the category of another troll's topic?

Oh yes, thank you for that troll badge. That can be considered an honor amongst all you fine upstanding Community members.

And one of you have that correct about a book. I've already made note of one aspect of human history and another that is super weird is that thousands of years ago event details were lost because few could write and so not enough information was recorded. Now is the complete opposite; such a flood of information that in a couple hundred years, threads like this will be lost because too much information is available. Pretty remarkable, isn't it?

[thecoalman]

You go from the data gathering of modern-day tech companies that is a hot topic with many intellects all over the planet, to a reference to the Model-T; and compare displeasure of a tech company's MO to something Henry Ford accomplished? That is an interesting lesson I need to remember..

Oh the humanity, I didn't properly remove nested quote. This is old forum software and it doesn't automagically remove them. I fixed it for you just so a moderator doesn't have to roll their eyes over your complaint.

You see, some of us in security had figured out that a whole bunch of those bots were initially coming out of Singapore last year and then making it appear they were actually based in other countries, especially other Asian nations. You saw that IP list posted about March or April of last year, thecoalman.

Generally speaking bot nets are not centralized. They are comprised of exploited machines that have been compromised typically because they are running old outdated software, both residential and commercial. The exploiter may try to gain personal information but they don't do anything to that particular machine to raise suspicions, you are not the target, you are the tool.

Those machines are used for numerous things whether it's DDOS attacks, spam or the increasing amount of scrapers so many site owners are trying to manage.

I had two back to back DDOS attacks a few years back and it was almost all Southeastern Asian IP's, this region along with Africa is going to dominate the source of compromised machines because so many of them are vulnerable running old outdated software. One of the more interesting things was as the sun was rising in that area of the world the attack would intensify significantly, people were waking up, doing there morning routine an turning these machines on.

And I couldn't help but notice that nobody commented about all those Video Help Community members posting in that other thread that has been going strong for over seven years and that thread’s purpose is to allow folks to use Windows 7. No comments from any of you on that one?

I have a WinXP machine and Win7 machine, I keep them around for old software that won't run on anything else, this is typical use for old OS. They never get connected to internet.

Not that there is anything at all wrong with becoming successful and earning such that you can retire comfortably, but to ignore the have-nots is . . . Well, you folks like to throw darts at others, so you choose what adjective fits.

If you do not have the money to get a new machine with Win11, install Linux. You have a perfectly viable option that solves all your problems. If you are going to insist on using old outdated software expect problems whether it's web sites blocking you, web sites not working properly, getting hacked etc.

[lordsmurf]

My goodness, you folks are not so good at denigrating another human, are you?
character assassination attempts
Just denigrate the bearer
thank you for that troll badge.

Drama.
This thread has quickly become a mix of "TL;DR" and "IDGAF"

I have a WinXP machine and Win7 machine, I keep them around for old software that won't run on anything else, this is typical use for old OS. They never get connected to internet.

This.

If you do not have the money to get a new machine with Win11, install Linux.

This.

[GAhere]

You see, some of us in security had figured out that a whole bunch of those bots were initially coming out of Singapore last year and then making it appear they were actually based in other countries, especially other Asian nations. ...

... Well, one in our team had done some research on User Agent data and I remembered that Windows 7 had been a key factor in some of the results of that research.

Well, last night and early this morning I have connected those numbers Dr. Zhou published as very likely being connected to that bot "factory" that used to be in Singapore....

"Bots" are nothing more than computer code that is present on multiple computers (servers or Server farms) all across the world. They do not just come from ONE single country. MANY "bots" are actually at the HEART of the Internet and ARE a vital part of making the Internet viable. Every time you do a web search, "bots" are there helping you complete the search.. "Bots" can and do search the Web for new pages of information, then will index and catalog making your searches much faster with improved results.

The problem is "Bots" can also be reprogrammed and used for malicious reasons (AKA Malware), these bots search and seek out all of the computer systems that have poor security practices, old outdated OS and software with fatal security flaws. Once found the Bot will then be able to not only access your PC without your knowledge but also use your PC as part of an attack on other PCs..

And I couldn't help but notice that nobody commented about all those Video Help Community members posting in that other thread that has been going strong for over seven years and that thread’s purpose is to allow folks to use Windows 7. No comments from any of you on that one?

Just denigrate the bearer of the information you don't like to read? Even if we toss Dr. Zhou's research notes into the trash, we still have an odd bit of information that is fact; and fact proven right here at Video Help - - - a lot of folks are turning BACK to Windows 7. More than one would expect, if that operating system is - - - well, all those adjectives y'all like to use don't need repeating.

I think you misunderstand, most folks on VH that are using Win7 are often doing so with the PC DISCONNECTED from the Internet, in other words OFFLINE.

This is often done when specific software does not install or work on a newer OS.

Example1, I have some software that will install on Win7, it will not install on Win10 without doing a workaround like installing it on Win7 and then running Win10 ISO as an upgrade.. So I am using the Win7 until The Browser stops working with most websites. Then I will run the Win10 ISO using the UPGRADE path to 10..

Example 2, I have older 16 Bit DOS software, 16 Bit software will not install or run on a 64 Bit OS, as such I have a XP PC that it runs perfectly on.. That XP PC is disconnected from the Internet and I access the PC using a KVM switch..

...And I did try to refocus on the lack of awareness by some of y'all of the facts on the ground in non-rich nations in back areas where they just ain't got the money you folks got. And it is so very obvious so many of you folks don't much care about that, do you?

And I made that point about folks with “No Money” a key issue in this thread right up there in the title. Must be kind of fun to live in a bubble.

"non rich" nations will ALSO have the same problem with old obsolete browsers no longer working.

The problem is "CHANGE", it is inevitable that as computers get faster and more complex instruction sets are added to the processors the software will get more complex and add in the use of the enhanced instruction sets. Once that happens the compatibility becomes and issue. Software is no longer written for processors that do not have the enhanced instructions. It becomes time consuming and costly to write programs for every OS version let alone test it on every OS version.

Not that there is anything at all wrong with becoming successful and earning such that you can retire comfortably, but to ignore the have-nots is . . . Well, you folks like to throw darts at others, so you choose what adjective fits.

But I understand there is, for example, a large homeless camp of a sorts in a very rich city in California, LA, and I wonder if some of them can only afford that used Windows 7 laptop they might have been carrying around from one homeless camp to another, if they have some way to connect to the Net. One homeless shelter to another, if they can connect to the Net.

Most "homeless" encampments I have seen in the US with my own eyes do not have electricity, running water, heat, food and often no or very little shelter from the elements.

In other words the basic essentials of life..

Toting around a computer and connecting to the Internet IS NOT AN ESSENTIAL part of staying alive.

You NEED WATER, FOOD, SHELTER, HEAT AND COOLING to sustain life.

ABSOLUTELY NO ONE NEEDS INTERNET to sustain life.

Every winter a large city nearby me opens up thousands of shelter beds to get homeless out of the sub freezing weather

Any of you rich folks care anything about them?

I am not "rich" by any means, I am not poor per say according to national economic standards, but not rich either, I am in the in between area that does not qualify for any handouts..

But nice deflection..

How about YOU give them water, food, shelter instead of worrying about a useless doorstop outdated computer.

TEACH them HOW to break the homeless cycle and become successful and be able to afford the luxury of the Internet.

Even then as I have mentioned, there ARE plenty of GOOD USED PCs for free or near free cost. Folks who have to have the fastest, shiniest PC often give their older and slightly older but very usable PCs away for free or near free..

I have had to start to turn away free used modern PCs, used be able to spiff them up with a fresh OS install, turn them around for a few bucks and resell them.. Last few languished for over a year on Craigslist before I sent them to Goodwill to teardown for parts.

There are constantly sellers on Craigslist that buy skids at a time of off lease business computers (servers, desktop, laptops) for pennies on the dollar. Some companies even PAY to have retired computers that can no longer be used to be removed by the pallet load.

As far as poor third world countries goes, there are many different groups that will take used working PC equipment provided they are modern enough to run the LATEST version of Windows and distribute those PCs to third world countries for hospitals and schools. They will not take an old XP/Vista era PC which is barely capable of Win7.

There used to be a group that would take very outdated PCs and load them with DOS and a program called GEOWORKS that ran on DOS and distribute them to third world countries but because that program no longer has a developer to develop the browser to accept the newest Internet security protocols it to has gone by the wayside.

Might even be some groups that will load Linux for third world countries

If you are truly concerned for "poor" people not having Internet, then find, start and get involved in working with an organization to provide the needed more modern equipment.

Very easy to vent and pretend to be a victim, MUCH harder to put your own sweat equity into making the world a better place.

[Brazil]

I have older 16 Bit DOS software, 16 Bit software will not install or run on a 64 Bit OS

It's possible. Try this:
https://www.groovypost.com/howto/enable-16-bit-application-support-windows-10/

or that:
https://mendelson.org/otvdm.html

[GAhere]

I have older 16 Bit DOS software, 16 Bit software will not install or run on a 64 Bit OS

It's possible. Try this:
https://www.groovypost.com/howto/enable-16-bit-application-support-windows-10/

or that:
https://mendelson.org/otvdm.html

Not compatible.

The one DOS program requires 100% fullscreen DOS screen control and DOS command interpreter. Starting with Win7, MS removed the capability of full screen DOS box and that was continued into Win8, Win10 and Win11.

MS did make a small concession in Win10 for LIMITED SUPPORT full DOS screen but program still does not run.

Program was originally designed for Commodore 64 computers but was eventually ported from a Commodore 64 into PC DOS and is really designed to run on true DOS command interpreter. It was with a few tweaks able to run under XP as XP still had DOS command Interpreter.

That leaves me several options.

1 Run in a virtual machine environment

2 keep a XP PC for that program.

option 1 would require setting up a virtual PC environment, the downside to virtual environments is the limitations each version of the different VMs create. Most have very limited connections between the VM and the actual host hardware. One like DOSbox has no parallel printer support, only RS232 support and limited or no USB support along with limited display driver support.

Option 2 gives the DOS program 100% full access to ALL of the PC hardware that Windows drivers support including video, sound, Par/Ser ports USB drives and heck it is actually "network" aware and can access network drives and printers..

Guess which option works the best? Hint, not option 1..

And yes, I have dabbled with VMs.. Win10 Pro gives the option of using the built in MS VM platform at no extra cost but OS support within MS VM is a bit limited..

[lordsmurf]

Most "homeless" encampments I have seen in the US with my own eyes do not have electricity, running water, heat, food and often no or very little shelter from the elements.
In other words the basic essentials of life..
Toting around a computer and connecting to the Internet IS NOT AN ESSENTIAL part of staying alive.
You NEED WATER, FOOD, SHELTER, HEAT AND COOLING to sustain life.
ABSOLUTELY NO ONE NEEDS INTERNET to sustain life.

I'm amazed at how many homeless people have smart phones. More than 50%!!!
In some locations, it's 70-90%!!!
Those are real stats.

[thecoalman]

No reason to be amazed since they don't pay for them. If you are in the US look at your phone bill and you'll see something like "Universal Service Fee", that's how they are paid for.

[ProJiJi]

Most "homeless" encampments I have seen in the US with my own eyes do not have electricity, running water, heat, food and often no or very little shelter from the elements.
In other words the basic essentials of life..
Toting around a computer and connecting to the Internet IS NOT AN ESSENTIAL part of staying alive.
You NEED WATER, FOOD, SHELTER, HEAT AND COOLING to sustain life.
ABSOLUTELY NO ONE NEEDS INTERNET to sustain life.

I'm amazed at how many homeless people have smart phones. More than 50%!!!
In some locations, it's 70-90%!!!
Those are real stats.

I appreciate that observation being raised. I only just now checked and saw that there is a SIM-free type phone that can be used in some nations. Maybe 'contractless' is better vocabulary usage. I'd never felt a need to study that aspect of the Net and wasn't aware there were legal ways of not having to sign a monthly contract.

I did know there were illegal methods of using a cell phone from work I did with law enforcement and central government entities some years ago. Actually, more than a decade ago.

I also do not know what sort of free wireless service is provided in other nations. Here in Japan many governing entities provide free wireless service in some areas, like at main train stations. I think I have seen that in commercial entities, too. I walk past a Starbucks in a commercial district here and I have seen something about free wireless, so I suppose they would be the same in the U.S., Canada, etc. Maybe?

That is another aspect of Net communications I have not briefed myself on, as I rarely use my phone to connect to the Net, and when I do I think I am paying AU/KDDI for any of that. I didn't arrange the contract for my phone and don't pay much attention to the monthly bills I pay, except I don't do any bills for utilities, phone, Net, anything, in that auto system. I always have those companies send the paper bill, which costs extra when paying at the convenience stores.

And as I was doing a check on that phone stuff I decided to see what stats were showing for Africa and these two links could be interesting for anyone who might care:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_technology_in_Africa

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_in_Africa

On another note about the Internet and anyone who is reading anything in this thread, do any of you view any area of the Net as public space?

If I walk across some line on a map into a city, like NYC, and am walking down the street, I am in a public space, correct? I think NYC could be classified as a "community".

And allow me to offer an AI piece that Google placed at the top of the search landing page:

Social media platforms are internet-based tools enabling users to create, share content, and build networks, with over 5 billion global users as of 2025. Key platforms include Facebook, YouTube, Instagram, and TikTok, utilized for social interaction, information sharing, and marketing. These digital spaces allow real-time connection but face scrutiny over mental health impacts and data privacy.
Investopedia

Do any of you view any of those noted above (Facebook, YouTube, etc) as communities?

Another thing; I heard recently on Armed Forces Radio that the IRS in the states is going to require tax returns be sent in an auto manner of some sort, but I don't handle my taxes myself, and the finance company I use hasn't informed me of any sort of new stuff I need to worry about. Of course, both governments only take my tax money. I haven't gotten a cash return since way-way back.

But it is an added worry, to my thinking and writings, that taxes could end up being handled just by Net communications. I mean, for those that do their tax stuff themselves. One horrible solar flare could wipe out that communications ability for weeks or months and cause serious disruptions of a very basic part of life - paying taxes. I don't think a solar flare could burn a piece of paper, unless that was super bad and then tax money would no longer be a priority.

[thecoalman]

[QUOTE=ProJiJi;2792868][QUOTE=lordsmurf;2792781]

Do any of you view any of those noted above (Facebook, YouTube, etc) as communities?

They are private companies and under no obligation to provide services to anyone. That said they fall under section 230 and if they are going to hide behind that shield while censoring political speech they dislike under the guise of moderation they should have those protections stripped.

If the NYT publishes an article that is libelous they are responsible for that because they assert editorial control. If someone does it on social media platform the company that provides the service is not responsible. Section 230 was created to prevent an avalanche of lawsuits against providers in particular ISP's so they weren't liable for the actions of their users. It's a cornerstone for free speech on the internet here in the US.

When a social media platform "moderates" content because they dislike it that is not moderation, they are asserting editorial control over the content and should be liable. One bill I saw proposed I felt was a reasonable approach, sites with more than X million users would need to certify they not censoring political speech to maintain the protections under 230.

[ProJiJi]

Please excuse me, thecoalman, but your answer wasn't clear on the question of "communities" and if you view such like Facebook, etc. as being in a general category of "community".

Then I notice you make a reference to "obligations" of said websites; so, for the sake of brevity, a Google search engine AI Overview might be useful:

Private companies are subject to various laws regarding access to their services, which differ based on jurisdiction, industry, and the nature of the service provided. Generally, while private businesses have the right to refuse service, they are legally constrained by anti-discrimination laws, accessibility mandates, and, for certain sectors, data privacy regulations.

That seems to be an area of interest when we include the parameter of "obligation" but there is also this:

Understandable: Information and operation of the user interface must be clear, with logical, consistent navigation.

That is a summary under Technical Guidelines for Accessibility (WCAG 2.1/2.2 AA).

But the "understandable" category is just one category of many and I am not so sure it is so cut-and-dried as you seem to feel it is with your "under no obligations to provide services to anyone." thought process.

I tend to lean toward the thinking that it is, in fact, much more complicated. Especially if one starts to study the laws of the individual nations. And the standard legal practice at present of "where your server is located" is not going to stand the test of time. That will change. Maybe not 'soon' but it will change. And there are signs of that slowly developing in such like the U.S. "CLOUD Act".

Thoughts? < When you have time. Thank you. >

[ProJiJi]

...That said they fall under section 230 and if they are going to hide behind that shield while censoring political speech they dislike under the guise of moderation they should have those protections stripped.

* Quoted text has been truncated. *

Your reference to Section 230: An Overview is fraught with difficulties.

And I think this is also going to see revisions down the road.

[thecoalman]

I'm not sure what your question is about community, a private website requiring paid membership can have a community.

In the US a privately owned business can deny service to anyone. If you walk into my place of business and I tell you to leave because I don't like your haircut you need to leave. Same thing applies on a web site. It's privately owned and the website owner makes the rules.

There are some exceptions, e.g. highly regulated companies that hold monopolies like utilities and any business can't deny service based on race, religion etc. However, the business does not need to give you a reason they are denying you service either.

And the standard legal practice at present of "where your server is located" is not going to stand the test of time.

I can assure you that no US judge will enforce foreign law on a US citizen that is contradictory to US law. There is currently a case working it's way through the courts involving two websites solely owned and operated within the US. In this case the websites brought the suit here in the US and the judge will declare the foreign UK regulator Ofcom has no authority here in the US, that is without question because it's Constitutionally protected speech. If it would be illegal for the US government to fine them then certainly the UK has no authority.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/clyjq40vjl7o

And there are signs of that slowly developing in such like the U.S. "CLOUD Act".

If a company is operating in the country XYZ the US can demand all it wants, without the cooperation of XYZ there isn't a thing they can do. That said XYZ is usually going to cooperate or may have agreement with US for certain illegal activities.

Companies that are multi national are subject to the laws of the countries they are operating in. A foreign regulator like Ofcom cited above can regulate a company like Google because Google has both a physical and financial presence in the UK. Same thing applies for any company operating in the US foreign or domestic.

[thecoalman]

Your reference to Section 230: An Overview is fraught with difficulties.

And I think this is also going to see revisions down the road.

It's very important piece of legislation, the most important in regards to free speech on the internet here in the US. I'd only support modifying it to address the issues with these mega sites like Facebook, X, Youtube etc. which can form the narrative through their shear size. Any proposals beyond that scope I would not support.

[ProJiJi]

thecoalman, do support the internationalization of decision-making procedures that relate to Internet governance?

Or should I ask if you support such in a limited way?

For example, do you support the Internet Governance Forum?

[thecoalman]

thecoalman, do support the internationalization of decision-making procedures that relate to Internet governance?

I do not and it's impossible for that to happen in any legally binding way so it's moot question. Firstly legally binding treaties require 2/3 vote in Senate, not going to happen. Secondly, most "treaties" or international agreements the US engages in are executive agreements and are subject to the pen in the hand of the sitting President. Lastly, whether it's adopted by the Senate or the Executive branch it needs to be Constitutionally valid.

As far as the Constitution that power lies with the states, not the federal government. Each state has equal power and ultimately the states empower the federal government. If you could get 38 US states to agree to an amendment to be subject to international law that would impose EU style censorship and other laws here you have a winner. Good luck with that.