Looking for a camera with an SD video in a smooth rate

[gerry667]

Hello video help forum, old idiot here.
you can call me gerald.
I'm getting on in years and I never paid much attention to video resolutions, frame rates or aspect ratios.
until recently. I see all this new uh stuff being made and I'm simply not interested in mega HD or 4k or whatever the new buzzword is.

what I'm looking for is a camera that only shoots in/ can shoot in a 4:3 aspect ratio, at 60p (or 60 fps, whatever)
I've found several cameras that can technically do this, but they're all some 'wide' aspect ratio. It'll claim to do 480/60p but what it really is doing is 854 x480, which is a 16:9 ratio. or its doing 720 x 480, which is a 3:2 ratio.
I'm really fed up trying to look up JVC or Sony manuals trying to find a camera that can actually do what I want, not *technically* what I want. (many are just filled with no info, as if it needed to be hidden from consumers...) all these manuals will tell me it can do whatever width resolution at 24/30/60p, or it will tell me the resolution is 640 x480 but won't tell me the frame rate (usually @30p which isn't what I want)

I've gone and bought 3 cameras already like an idiot hunting and being misled and probably should have asked for help first.
I'm not interested in filming 16:9 and cropping being I'm not trying to lose information and that I'm entirely hopeless at editing. (yes, I have tried that program you're about to recommend, I am bad at computering.) I don't even care if its HD or not, I'm just looking for a camera that is 4:3 at 60p, with (I guess) square pixels rather than the mess of anamorphic or non-square pixels. and I suppose I ought to use something with no tapes, because I guess they aren't made anymore...
I know that even the exact same resolution can be made pretty much any ratio and you squash and stretch to fix it in post. I'd like to avoid any post shooting edits.

doing research is a huge pain because like I mentioned manuals have all got partial info, or technically true info that turn out not to meet my criteria. for some more popular cameras, if I'm lucky I can find some 10 year old unboxing video and then hope I get lucky again and they click through the camera menus and show off the different resolution and frame rate modes. I have not been that lucky very often. Internet searching in general has just become almost incomprehensible in general the past few years and I have no idea why.

if anyone here has knowledge on what I'm looking for, I do appreciate your time.
yes, I am a video idiot.

thanks
Gerry
-

[Sharc]

How are you going to watch these videos? On a legacy 4:3 CRT TV? On a "modern" 16:9 TV? Take note that for the latter you would always have large left and right black bars on the TV screen when watching your 4:3 video.

(Legacy) digital D8, DV videocams record and store "4:3" video anamorphic as 720x480, 60i (SD, interlaced, NTSC). The TV/player converts the anamorphic 720x480 (3:2) picture to 4:3 on the fly and deinterlaces (converts) the 60i to smooth 60p. Legacy 4:3 CRT TVs would play it as 60i. I am not aware of any videocam which records video as 640x480 (4:3) - except for still pictures.
What are your 3 disappointing camera models? Check the settings. Some have the choice between 16:9 and 4:3 (e.g. by setting 16:9 to "OFF" for SONY TRVxxx), and later HD (AVCHD, mp4) models record in square pixels like 1920x1080 for 16:9, or maybe some 1440x1080 for native 4:3. Details depend on the model. Newer 2k, 4k models are all 16:9 only AFAIK (except for still pictures where one has the choice).

A pre-owned DV or Digital8 (SONY DCR-TRV series) model is probably closest to what you are looking for.
Also check your TV settings if it does automatically adjust the aspect ratio according to the source, otherwise you need to set it manually.

[gerry667]

the display I watch it on doesn't matter.
I don't mind black bars on my videos as long as I'm not recording them onto the video itself. I assume my TV is a 16:9er, so if it shows black bars, that is okay. I may also try to use my computer tower to watch the videos, I use the VLC video player. I'm not optimistic a PC or a TV will take a 4:3 video (recorded as 3:2) and squash and stretch it into the 4:3 ratio it should be, reliably.

digital8 and DV cams are nice, but I don't think those tapes are being made anymore, so once the stock runs out, that's it. I'm also a bit aprehensive about 60i. like I mentioned previously, I'm not too familiar with video, I used to just shoot it and play it. however, I was told that deinterlacing a 60i video will not give you 60p. I would either get 30p from it, or a 30p video interpolated to 60p.
I'm not too bothered if the resolution is 640 x 480 or not, my only requirements are that whatever resolution it may be needs to be, its needs to be at 60p in a 4:3 ratio. if its HD or sub SD, I don't care, as long as its 4:3, 60p, etc etc

I don't have trust in whatever I watch these things on to be smart enough to de-anamorphic to the ratio I want, and deinterlace satisfyingly, *and* at the right framerate all at once.
the more I can just 'bake' into the video, the better, and de-interlacing, interpolating, and anamorphic are not that
I'm tired of editing and futzing around with TV settings.

[Sharc]

I might be wrong but I don't think you can find what you want with current consumer camcorders. They ar all 16:9 AFAIK, even though they have an option to store the video as 1440x1080 60p which is in fact anamorphic 16:9, so it plays as 16:9.
You might have your reason why you insist on 4:3. The simplest solution is probably to mark the 4:3 frame on the 16:9 flip-out screen and then mask or crop it in post.
Maybe someone else will chime in with a better proposal.

Edit:
Here a pro line with 4:3 sensor, model E2-M4 Mark II:
https://www.z-cam.com/

[dellsam34]

Starting from the very first analog 4:3 camcorder (Reel2reel, VHS, Betamovie, Video8, Betacam ...), all the way to a digital 4:3 camcorder (DV, digital Betacam ...), None of those did 60p, 30i is the common frame rate with the exception of some prosumer digital camcorders that did 24/30p (25p for PAL market), So rest assured that a 60p camcorder with only 4:3 aspect does not exist or at least did not exist for the consumer market.

Now about screen format, don't let your hate to modern gear blinds you from choosing the right camcorder, There is nothing wrong modern camcorders, they are just trying to get as close as to what the human eye sees, If you don't like some features simply turn them off, The goal is to get a decent looking videos. If you don't like the 16:9 ratio, shoot within a 4:3 window and crop your videos later, There is nothing wrong with 16:9 as an aspect ratio if shot and seen as intended, It's wrong when a format is butchered and cropped to fit a different screen ratio when the movie maker intended the movie to be seen in the original ratio.

Widescreen got a bad rap from the TV era where a lot of uneducated consumers thought that full screen meant you are getting the full movie and widescreen meant that you are getting a chopped up version of the movie taking the top and bottom sections off, while in reality it's the other way around, it's the left and right sections that got chopped off in a full screen version so it will fill the 4:3 CRT screen.

SD, HD, 4K in the other hand are just screen resolutions, think of it as a canvas for an artist, Some artists like to draw on a rough canvas, others like smooth canvas, Higher resolution meant that you can watch your work on a bigger screen without seeing the canvas, lower resolution limits your viewing to small screens. The advantage of higher resolution such as 4k is that it is backward compatible, You can watch a SD content in a 4K file or a 4K screen but you can't see the native 4K resolution in a SD file or a SD screen. So why limit yourself to SD?

Here is a nice video that a lot folks missed back in those days explains the drama about full screen vs wide screen.

While at it, this video shows the history of aspect ratio, it is very simple and very educational.

So to summarize, shoot based on the playback screen's aspect ratio you or your audience is intended to see the work on, not based on your love or hate to a particular screen format or video format.

[Alwyn]

I was told that deinterlacing a 60i video will not give you 60p. I would either get 30p from it, or a 30p video interpolated to 60p.

Depends on how you deinterlace it. For example, if you double-rate deinteralce 60i (that is, 60 interlaced fields per sec), you will get 60P ie 60 progressive frames per second. QTGMC will do this very well (reputed to be the best consumer-level deinterlacer around but difficult to set up unless you use a GUI).

A practical example is a camcorder video say shot at 29.97fps (that is 59.94 interlaced fields per second). If you deinterlace that to double (frame) rate, you'll get a noticeably smoother video, running at 59.94 frames per second.

[Alwyn]

Here's an example, I just made up, of what I am talking about.

https://youtu.be/kJIV2iWrfJM

[Sharc]

@Gerry667: In case you still stick to shooting in 4:3 60p here the data of the Z Cam E2-M4 Mark II which I linked to in post #4


[Attachment 89967 - Click to enlarge]

I think it is quite a bit cheaper and more player compliant to shoot in 16:9 with a consumer camcorder and mount curtains in front of your 16:9 TV, if you don't want to crop the video in post processing

[JN-]

AFAIK The Panasonic GH5 6 and 7 do open gate but at only 30p.

[dellsam34]

Here a pro line with 4:3 sensor, model E2-M4 Mark II:
https://www.z-cam.com/

$2000 for a camera body? that's a lot of money to be able to shoot in 4:3.

[Alwyn]

that's a lot of money to be able to shoot in 4:3.

The other requirement is 60p.

[second--0]

I'm surprised nobody in the forum knows of gopro.
gopro 5 (hero) I believe does 4:3 960 60p
course, no camera company likes to boast about the lower video modes their camera can do. might not even appear in manuals. everyone's after the shiny HDs or 4k. some cameras aren't even programmed with anything under 720. so I understand the frustration.
though thats not SD

as for the m43 lumix gh5, @JN-
I thought the open-gate modes run at 30 only if you use max res or 5k mode. can't you record at rezes below 4k at 60 in open-gate mode?
anyway. there's your camera.
won't break the bank, 60p, 4:3. 960 is just above hd, but there you are.
though you'll get a wide FOV. action camera nonsense. hope you like home movies that make you look radical skateboarder or surfer :P

[dellsam34]

It also has these modes:

[gerry667]

Starting from the very first analog 4:3 camcorder (Reel2reel, VHS, Betamovie, Video8, Betacam ...), all the way to a digital 4:3 camcorder (DV, digital Betacam ...), None of those did 60p, 30i is the common frame rate with the exception of some prosumer digital camcorders that did 24/30p (25p for PAL market), So rest assured that a 60p camcorder with only 4:3 aspect does not exist or at least did not exist for the consumer market.

Now about screen format, don't let your hate to modern gear blinds you from choosing the right camcorder, There is nothing wrong modern camcorders, they are just trying to get as close as to what the human eye sees, If you don't like some features simply turn them off.

I'd hate modern gear less if they'd let me record how I'd like to. The tech is there, but they'll never let me. all this advancement, but they can't show off how easy it would be for their high tech to do anything 'old'. even the old camcorders had a 'wide toggle' in a a lot of cases, while the cameras themselves were capable of hd 16:9@60, you were *still* limited to 30 in any 4:3 mode. today's cameras don't even bother with that! no toggle to be found. I bet they could have allowed 60 in 4:3 but had head in clouds assuming all anyone ever cared for was a wide HD.

if it can do a wide mode with extra pixels at full frame rate, you can't tell me they weren't or aren't capable of 60 at a lower resolution and narrower ratio.

4:3 at a comparatively lower resolution for their sensor is peanuts. any old chip can crunch that in a second, especially anything 10x or 100x the speed of my last workstation, like you get miniturized in every gadget.

all this modernity and yet no one has their head screwed on enough to add the option to firmware.

and neither is it true that all unwanted features can be turned off. especially not then.

You can watch a SD content in a 4K file or a 4K screen but you can't see the native 4K resolution in a SD file or a SD screen. So why limit yourself to SD?

I don't necessarily care about SD. but I'm more likely to find what I'm looking for in SD, as 'HD' to everyone even back when it was new means 'wide', when it doesn't necessarily.
there was no real technical limitation, at least by the time of early hd camcorders. and certainly not now. what a joke.

Depends on how you deinterlace it. For example, if you double-rate deinteralce 60i (that is, 60 interlaced fields per sec), you will get 60P ie 60 progressive frames per second. QTGMC will do this very well (reputed to be the best consumer-level deinterlacer around but difficult to set up unless you use a GUI).

A practical example is a camcorder video say shot at 29.97fps (that is 59.94 interlaced fields per second). If you deinterlace that to double (frame) rate, you'll get a noticeably smoother video, running at 59.94 frames per second.

oh, hmm. I'll have to figure out and learn about deinterlacing then. I'm worried that it might not be a 'real' 60, but just doubling every frame to reach an arbitrary number, with every other frame being a double and not a new frame of information. so I'd get a 60 but there's only 30p of information.

all info about it, feel free to share along

In case you still stick to shooting in 4:3 60p here the data of the Z Cam E2-M4 Mark II which I linked to in post #4

hmm yeah, pricey. at least that's an example of something new being a bit smart.
quite the premium, but I guess those'r the features I was looking for. And they're clearly smart enough to do what the big brands won't. an uncommon ask with a price to match.

AFAIK The Panasonic GH5 6 and 7 do open gate but at only 30p.

ooh, Open-Gate seems just what I'm looking for. I wonder if it can go 60 in a lower resolution (but still 4:3) like @second--0 theorizes?

I'm surprised nobody in the forum knows of gopro.

If what you're saying about gopro is true, I'm surprised no one mentioned it sooner, especially on this site.
all the same, you make a fair point about the FOV. Torn about that one.
how did you come to know about that? gopro never popped up in my searches.

appreciate all the responses, all.
beem away a bit for holiday reasons

people keep saying to make a 4:3 guide on viewfinder but
how would I manage that? I'd probably screw up the sizing. be better if the 'real' camera manufacturers just did all the calculations themselves.

still weighing my options, so if you've got more expertise, I'm happy to listen. cheers!

[Alwyn]

I'm worried that it might not be a 'real' 60, but just doubling every frame to reach an arbitrary number, with every other frame being a double and not a new frame of information. so I'd get a 60 but there's only 30p of information.

No need to worry, if you double-rate deinterlace, QTGMC will create 60 different, unique frames from your 60 interlaced fields and it does it very well.

You can see the doubled-framerate in the YT I put up in post #7. Put the setting on to 1440P50, and then use the comma and fullstop keys to frame advance through the video. You'll see the right side moving every frame (50P), whereas the left side moves every second frame (25P).

[second--0]

If what you're saying about gopro is true, I'm surprised no one mentioned it sooner, especially on this site.
all the same, you make a fair point about the FOV. Torn about that one.
how did you come to know about that? gopro never popped up in my searches.

easy. have one! ;)
like I said before, you're not gonna get info about all the modes, or at least not often
most manuals leave out the real specifics; they're more about 'how to' use.
many reviewers are also just mouthpeices

no one wants to talk about the 'old' resolutions
the new thing has gotta have every pore on a face, so they'll talk about the high res it can do, not 'old hat'
they read off or get paid to read off the press release, talk about the new features, the price and if you're lucky you'll get a date as to when it launches (but won't say which year....)

not to mention google and bing went to the crapper. no wonder you didn't find anything!

[Sharc]

I'm worried that it might not be a 'real' 60, but just doubling every frame to reach an arbitrary number, with every other frame being a double and not a new frame of information. so I'd get a 60 but there's only 30p of information.

No need to worry, if you double-rate deinterlace, QTGMC will create 60 different, unique frames from your 60 interlaced fields and it does it very well.

Sure, but @Gerry wrote that he doesn't want to dive into post processing, let alone Avisynth and QTGMC. Also, he is concerned about availability of tapes for these legacy DV videocams. So I don't think this is a real option for him, just my guessing .....