Capturing on a hard drive with long stored files a bad idea?

[lollo]

For some reason I can still see filed blending in your sample, someone can correct me if I'm wrong.

I do not see field contamination in Recapture.avi. But each field is very low quality and their timing architecture is weird, as Sharc alreay pointed out.

Is not a simple (constant) phase shift because a DoubleWeave().SelectOdd() does not fix the video. It must be some dynamic phase shift, embedded in the tape or introduced by a faulty device.

It can be fixed with a field matching operation, here a comparison comp.avi. But OP should solve his capture issue first.

video_org=AviSource("Recapture.avi")

#video_org_rep=video_org.DoubleWeave().SelectOdd()

video_org_rep=video_org.TFM(order=1, mode=0, PP=0, slow=2, field=1)

stackhorizontal(\
subtitle(video_org,"video_org",size=20,align=2),\
subtitle(video_org_rep,"video_org_rep",size=20,align=2)\
)

[jagabo]

Yes, 25p content was broadcast BFF but captured TFF. It can also be made progressive again with something like:

AssumeTFF()
SeparateFields()
Trim(1,0)
Weave()

Though this has the same problem as DoubleWeave().SelectOdd(). The filter chain gets confused because there are an odd number of fields left after removing the first field. If you work linearly from start to end there's no problem. But if you go to the end and step backward the filtering gets messed up.

On the other hand, TFM() can sometimes mismatch or deinterlace inappropriately.

[lollo]

On the other hand, TFM() can sometimes mismatch or deinterlace inappropriately.

With PP=0 TFM does not look for combed frames, so no deintarlacing is applied. And I add mode=0 for this type of material.

The only case where I noticed a such configured TFM in confusion is in rare footage where the picture is static and there is some vetical/horizontal shifting (i.e. end credits on uniform background); but the outcomes is just a frame pattern change, so nothing serious.

But again, if the defect is not baked on tape, better to fix the capture.

[Gary34]

The one i saw was a European model apparently. Slightly different layout on the front as it doesn't have the Tint buttons. One of the later models anyway

You saw one that had 2004 on it that was PAL? I’m pretty sure you just saw a board image of mine. I haven’t heard of anyone else having one that was made that late.
[Attachment 89878 - Click to enlarge]

[jagabo]

On the other hand, TFM() can sometimes mismatch or deinterlace inappropriately.

With PP=0 TFM does not look for combed frames, so no deintarlacing is applied. And I add mode=0 for this type of material.

Sorry, I didn't notice you used pp=0.

[Gary34]

Well I guess we know that a recap doesn’t fix that now. https://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vcr-repair/14060-tbc-3000-causing.html LS has the same issue with his 3rd and 4th gen TBC 3000s and from what he said there is not a known way to fix it.

[Sharc]

Well I guess we know that a recap doesn’t fix that now. https://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vcr-repair/14060-tbc-3000-causing.html LS has the same issue with his 3rd and 4th gen TBC 3000s and from what he said there is not a known way to fix it.

Thanks for the link. So the TBC flaw and the capture window offset has obviously been known, and the OP may now revisit his capture process to address the remaining issues with the fields sequence mess - unless this is also caused by the flawed TBC-3000.

[Gary34]

The ATI AIW cards don't have anything in the way of resilience. If your frame TBC isn't there you might want a more resilient card.
https://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/video-capture/15204-ati-aiw-card.html

[Gary34]

The TBC 3000s are really risky to buy now. I had bought mine in 2023 from a college professor nearby who just wanted the 800 he paid for it forever ago and said he would feel bad charging the prices he saw online. The online ones are beat up ones that don't work. The one he had was kept in air-conditioning and labeled in a neat office for 20 years. The guy went to his friend who was into professional video and music and tried to have him sell it and everyone he talked to said it was old and they didn't want it. then he listed it under regular facebook using a stock photo of a Pal unit. He didn't take into account condition of inflation or anything. It was really risking the 800 though because anything could have been wrong with it. It's best to buy refurbished. Even if you buy something refurbished stuff happens.

[Master Tape]

Well the first example was captured with the TBC in the VCR turned off, so all signs point to it being the external. I normally use a Panasonic ES-10 whenever i have to with tapes the VCR's TBC doesn't like .....

Did you try with the ES-10 in passthrough for these problematic cases? Similar issues or worse even?
Also, what is the source format on the tape really: Interlaced, PsF, or field switched progressive video (not unusual for PAL)?
Are you positive that your VCR is in good condition? (Aged) NV-HS860 can be pretty picky with respect to their TBC functionality - depending on tape condition.

Just for any tapes that trip up the VCR's TBC. That is interesting about the aging TBC in the machine being picky, that would make more sense as i'm pretty sure analogue channels didnt have macrovision in the signal. When it does work (for the most part) the NV-HS860's TBC is very strong, it's straightens the picture up better than any other VCR i've tried.

Well I guess we know that a recap doesn’t fix that now. https://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vcr-repair/14060-tbc-3000-causing.html LS has the same issue with his 3rd and 4th gen TBC 3000s and from what he said there is not a known way to fix it.

Forgot i made that thread on there. I'll need to update them on things.

The ATI AIW cards don't have anything in the way of resilience. If your frame TBC isn't there you might want a more resilient card.
https://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/video-capture/15204-ati-aiw-card.html

Oh damn, that makes sense then, they go badly out of sync when i've captured stuff without a TBC when it was off for repairs.

The TBC 3000s are really risky to buy now. I had bought mine in 2023 from a college professor nearby who just wanted the 800 he paid for it forever ago and said he would feel bad charging the prices he saw online. The online ones are beat up ones that don't work. The one he had was kept in air-conditioning and labeled in a neat office for 20 years. The guy went to his friend who was into professional video and music and tried to have him sell it and everyone he talked to said it was old and they didn't want it. then he listed it under regular facebook using a stock photo of a Pal unit. He didn't take into account condition of inflation or anything. It was really risking the 800 though because anything could have been wrong with it. It's best to buy refurbished. Even if you buy something refurbished stuff happens.

That was some good luck. I bought mines in 2018, but didnt use it until a couple of years later. Apparently it only became known they started to have problems from 2019. Just my luck!

So what should i do.. Stop using the TBC and get a more resilient capture card.. or get a different TBC (such as green box AVT-8710) but where would i find one?

[Sharc]

So what should i do.. Stop using the TBC and get a more resilient capture card.. or get a different TBC (such as green box AVT-8710) but where would i find one?

Do you REALLY need an extarnal full frame TBC? Did you try a DVD recorder in passthrough (ES-10, ES-15) instead of the faulty TBC for stabilizing the picture?
As discussed your captures also had issues with weird fields sequences. Not sure where this comes from.
Worst case you have to repeat the capture and eventually splice the healthy sections. Short glitches of 1...3 frames may be bridged by replacing the bad frames by motion interpolated frames from adjacent healthy frames. A bit laborious too .....

[Master Tape]

So what should i do.. Stop using the TBC and get a more resilient capture card.. or get a different TBC (such as green box AVT-8710) but where would i find one?

Do you REALLY need an extarnal full frame TBC? Did you try a DVD recorder in passthrough (ES-10, ES-15) instead of the faulty TBC for stabilizing the picture?

I mean i don't want dropped frames (i can live with the syncing issues, which can be fixed in post)

I could use the ES10 in general, though i know passing through your VCR whilst it's TBC is turned on means the ES10 can't stabilise the lines more since the VCR has already done that. But from what i gather it still acts as a decent frame TBC itself? I'd only turn the VCR's TBC off when absolutely necessary. I just dont like the issues the PAL ES10 introduces when in the capture line, such as more noise, bad luma values, over exposure, posterization.

Alternatively replacing my ATI with a Pinnacle should prevent any dropped frames and make for a more stable capture without a full frame TBC, in theory?

Worst case you have to repeat the capture and eventually splice the healthy sections. Short glitches of 1...3 frames may be bridged by replacing the bad frames by motion interpolated frames from adjacent healthy frames. A bit laborious too .....

Yes i have done that several times. Not fun...

As discussed your captures also had issues with weird fields sequences. Not sure where this comes from.

I'll have to recapture those parts without a TBC in the line and see how it looks. Once i find the tapes they're on...

[Gary34]

Oh damn, that makes sense then, they go badly out of sync when i've captured stuff without a TBC when it was off for repairs.

You can see the lack of resiliency with the AIW cards here when he connects it to a regular VCR with no TBCs https://youtu.be/3SRoGgJZbwc?si=sNzNEgW1RmDyXo4J That doesn’t mean it’s a bad card though it’s just not resilient.

Alternatively replacing my ATI with a Pinnacle should prevent any dropped frames and make for a more stable capture without a full frame TBC, in theory?

That depends on your tapes if that will work or not. Getting a frame sync TBC like an AVT 8710 is a more reliable way to prevent dropped frames. You also would lose the ability to capture illegal values if you use a Pinnacle card. I know the AIW cards can. Then again some TBCs clip illegal values.

So what should i do.. Stop using the TBC and get a more resilient capture card.. or get a different TBC (such as green box AVT-8710) but where would i find one?

Digitalfaq is the most reliable place to buy a frame sync TBC. You can try your es-10 and see how it works before buying another frame sync TBC.

[Sharc]

I could use the ES10 in general, though i know passing through your VCR whilst it's TBC is turned on means the ES10 can't stabilise the lines more since the VCR has already done that.

You would have to try out which one performs better and if it makes a difference. Depends on VCR, VCR condition and tape condition.

But from what i gather it still acts as a decent frame TBC itself?

Not really. It's basically a strong line TBC.

I just dont like the issues the PAL ES10 introduces when in the capture line, such as more noise, bad luma values, over exposure, posterization.

Your own experience or copy-paste statements? (S-)VHS tapes are not pristine sources. Additional noise and posterization introduced by the ES-10/15 is like dropping a coffee cup during an earthquake and complaining about the extra vibration and damage this causes. I have seen more severe problems which were caused by low quality S-Video cabling than by the ES-15 itself.

Well, you have to try, as I/we don't have your tapes and equipment.

[lollo]

I mean i don't want dropped frames (i can live with the syncing issues, which can be fixed in post)

What you can easily fix in post is an offset in a/v synch, but not constant synch is not simple. And a/v asynch is generally caused by dropped frames.

Alternatively replacing my ATI with a Pinnacle should prevent any dropped frames and make for a more stable capture without a full frame TBC, in theory?

Not really. There are just few cards resilients for major defects in the incoming stream, because they have internal TBC features, such as the BE75 and the Canopus NX.
All the rest require a "clean" signal, and if the condition of the tape is not as such, an external TBC is needed.

Your own experience or copy-paste statements?

Another example of parroting a legend. The posterization defect in the ES10/ES15 is introduced because people tend to play with the procamp to compensate a real defect of the devices (the luma range expansion); "over exposure" and "more noise" is another set of myth.

[Gary34]

Another example of parroting a legend. The posterization defect in the ES10/ES15 is introduced because people tend to play with the procamp to compensate a real defect of the devices (the luma range expansion); "over exposure" and "more noise" is another set of myth.

You are the first person i've read say all that about the es10/15. I found this after you said that https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/361978-The-side-effects-of-hardware-filters-%28screenshots%29. So are you saying the only downside of the es 10/15 is the luma expansion? If you have links proving that would you list them.

[Alwyn]

You can try your es-10 and see how it works before buying another frame sync TBC.

Good advice. Unless you're a perfectionist wanting to outlay a thousand + bucks on something that may or may not have problems, just go ES-10, 15, and a few other Panasonic, Sony or Pioner DVD recorders. I'll bet you'll find your captures will be good.

VH and DigitalFAQ are full of posts about very costly but bung TBCs. I think i'm reasonably particular but there is no way in the world I'd buy a "proper" TBC these days. Very few complain about the DVD recorders used as stabilisers. And those who do complain don't back up their criticisms with evidence.

[CaptureCraft]

I use DVD recorder. I can't compare it to Panasonic es10/15 nor to dedicated TBC.
However, I can compare it to TBC from the latest JVC devices.
I must say JVC is so behind, so my old captures look like garbage, and I'm in process to recapture them.
I can provide details what exactly is better.

[Gary34]

You are throwing away data you well need for editing if you plan to do any restoration in Selur’s Hybrid or anything like that by capturing to H.264. VHS is really noisy and benefits from some restoration. All the noise and head switching doesn’t compress well into a lossy codec. In this video the confetti is like noise https://youtu.be/r6Rp-uo6HmI . H.264’s efficiency relies on redundancy. It’s using P and B frames to compress actoss multiple frames and rounds values inside of macroblocks. Then you have multiple stages of lossy compression by the time you get to YouTube and it looks like crap. It’s a Lossy codec meaning it loses information. H.264’s purpose is to compress for sharing online. Huffy compresses losslessly meaning it doesn’t lose information. It’s better to clean up your video before lossy compression.

[CaptureCraft]

You are throwing away data you well need for editing if you plan to do any restoration in Selur’s Hybrid or anything like that by capturing to H.264. VHS is really noisy and benefits from some restoration. All the noise and head switching doesn’t compress well into a lossy codec. It’s a Lossy codec meaning it loses information. H.264’s purpose is to compress for sharing online. Huffy compresses losslessly meaning it doesn’t lose information.

Gary34, you're so ignorant, you don't even know the difference between compressed/uncompressed and lossy/lossless.
H.264 supports both lossless and lossy modes. Obviously, I use lossless mode.
So, how about you keep your unfounded assumptions for yourself and learn stuff before posting? Or, at least ask questions.

[lollo]

You are the first person i've read say all that about the es10/15. I found this after you said that https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/361978-The-side-effects-of-hardware-filters-%28screenshots%29. So are you saying the only downside of the es 10/15 is the luma expansion?

Not sure I understand your post, are yoy saying that I am the only one to recognize the benefit of some DVD-Recorders in passthrough mode to fix specific defects and that they may increase the luma signal?
We are not on digitalFaq here, where you can blah blah without evidences; you must prove all your statements with facts, otherwise you are not credible!

If you have links proving that would you list them.

Better, here a comparison between a problematic VHS tape (not S-VHS, to better appreciate the outcomes) captures with a convential workflow (Panasonic VCR (not a JVC VCR, to have a less smooth picture) + Hauppauge USB-Live 2) versus an enhaced workflow (same Panasonic VCR + Panasonic ES15 + same Hauppauge USB-Live 2). (The tape is problematic because all the even fields are damaged, so they have been replaced with a copy of the odd fields in post, but that's another story.)

Comparison of the two captures (compressed to h264 crf 17 to be able to upload): compare.mp4

Frame comparison with slider: https://imgsli.com/NDMxNjI1 (also note has ES15 has straighten the vertical lines)



Frame comparison: https://imgsli.com/NDMxNjI2



Now you tell me your conclusions.

Also note how the ES15 was able to fix a couple of problematic frames:





P.S.: about h264 encoding you problably ignore that it can compress loss less (I would never use it anyhow)

edit: CaptureCraft arrived first about h264

[Gary34]

I know H.264 can be losslessly compressed but I didn’t expect someone to capture tapes to losslessly compressed 10 bit H.264. Especially when they are blaming drops on Virtualdub.

[Gary34]

Not sure I understand your post, are yoy saying that I am the only one to recognize the benefit of some DVD-Recorders in passthrough mode to fix specific defects and that they may increase the luma signal?
We are not on digitalFaq here, where you can blah blah without evidences; you must prove all our statements with facts, otherwise you are not credible!

You are the first person I have heard say it doesn’t cause posterization and add noise. The fact that is fixed problematic tapes is well known.

[CaptureCraft]

I know H.264 can be losslessly compressed but I didn’t expect someone to capture tapes to losslessly compressed 10 bit H.264. Especially when they are blaming drops on Virtualdub.

I've never blamed VirtualDub for drops. I did tests to force that scenario by gouging compression rate.
I do capture tapes to lossless compressed 10 bit H.264 because I can and I want.

[lollo]

You are the first person I have heard say it doesn’t cause posterization and add noise.

False. But maybe you can post (or point to) some facts about your claims, because you did not conclude on my samples.
And while there, maybe also add a link to a post of some experienced user about it.

BTW, the link you posted earlier from Brad is not supporting you, this may help you: https://imgsli.com/NDMxNjU3/0/2

And finally maybe re-read what knowledgeable user Sharc said about it.

The fact that is fixed problematic tapes is well known.

You should stop parroting biased opinions and build your own expertize

[Gary34]

BTW, the link you posted earlier from Brad is not supporting you, this may help you: https://imgsli.com/NDMxNjU3/0/2

Obviously the link I posted isn’t supporting that the es 10/15 causes posterization. I’m not trying to make a claim that the es 10/15 does cause posterization or other issues. The link I posted was something to support your claim. It’s all I found.

[lollo]

BTW, the link you posted earlier from Brad is not supporting you, this may help you: https://imgsli.com/NDMxNjU3/0/2

Obviously the link I posted isn’t supporting that the es 10/15 causes posterization. I’m not trying to make a claim that the es 10/15 does cause posterization or other issues. The link I posted was something to support your claim. It’s all I found.

OK, I have understodd the opposite, I apologize.

But you are not coherent with your writing across all your posts! (at least as I understand them)

[Gary34]

OK, I have understodd the opposite, I apologize.

It’s fine.

The post about losslessly compressed H.264 I meant to put on the other thread.