Help me to understand why I got noise in capturing

[thecode]

Hello,
I have just bought a Metz VF61 that is a Panasonic HS860 clone. I own, also a basic Samsung VCR.
I am trying to capture some old VHS and I am experiencing this:

1) CAPTURING with SAMSUNG
Overall quality is acceptable, viceo colors are soft and no noise. Some problem with the sync, but it has no embedded TBC
2) CAPTURING with Metz
TBS seems to work almost well, infact date/time displayed no more flickers, but I have a captured video too sharp because it apperas so many colored dots in the not well exposed zones. It appears like when in a Picture editing software you exceed with the 'sharp' function. Same result if TBS and 3DNR is off.

If I connect Metz directly to TV, I get a good, soft video colors, like the output of the Samsung capturing. The best result, for me, it would be the Samsung soft colors with no flickers that Metz succesfully do with the use of TBC. How can I do this? I should change the captuing devices? Please note that the capturing device is the same used with Samsung and Metz but I get different results in capturing but in displaying to TV is the same result.

[dellsam34]

It just means the Metz has more details, Soft is not an indication of good picture quality, Are you capturing from S-Video on both? Without video samples no one can tell which is better.

[thecode]

Yes I am capturing using S-Video from both. Take a look to these 2 frames just to understand what I mean.

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/13qixVva2zDl8KHxRJUH-u7PVRyyu97EE?usp=sharing

Both are taken using same capturing card, same PC same software in AVI uncompressed. The softer is from Samsung, the sharper is from Metz VF61 (Panasonic HS860).

[lordsmurf]

Panasonic is too sharp by default, this is well known.
Adjust the sharpen slider about 1-2mm left of center/unity.

[thecode]

What do you mean with:

Adjust the sharpen slider about 1-2mm left of center/unity.

I have no such selector

[dellsam34]

The Metz frame grab looks closer to the tape than the second one which has dull blurry details and chroma artifacts in the white areas, What picture setting do you see on the Metz menu? The brightness is little higher with clipped levels, If you can tone that down little bit that would help improve it. keep the DNR ON unless it is giving you problems, it really helps clears the white areas from chroma noise.

[manono]

I have no such selector

My Panasonic HS860 does. You can't access the menu? Do you have the remote control? Me, I turned sharpness completely off.

[thecode]

First of all I want to greet everyone is helping me about fixing it.

Metz menu have just a Functions->Picture setting with just 2 options: SOFT and SHARP and I had alredy set it to SOFT.

About brightness, I see that Metz is a bit high respect to the Samsung capture but Metz have no bright adjust to help.

Now I tried to activate 3D DNR and the result is in the shared folder:

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/13qixVva2zDl8KHxRJUH-u7PVRyyu97EE?usp=sharing

Manono, your HS860 have another control for sharpness? And for brightness? Can you tell me?

[orsetto]

If the Metz is an exact clone of the Panasonic 860 (which seems to be the case, they look exactly alike in photos), then OP timecode is correct that the unit does not offer a "range" of picture detail settings. This model only has binary SOFT/SHARP picture options buried three levels deep in a function menu: not very helpful when you really need a neutral or off setting. The only apparent options are SOFT, SHARP, or AUTO (let the unit choose between the two depending on its own evaluation of tape quality). If there is some non-intuitive way of getting finer grained settings (hold down the arrow keys until a scale appears onscreen?), the instruction manual does not explain or allude to it. If these simplified picture settings work well with your tapes and capture device, the 860 is a nice player, but it might be a bit inflexible if the default settings clash with the rest of your capture chain. Re somewhat distorted brightness/contrast when TBC/DNR is active: thats a common issue with many similar VCRs, more of a problem with some tapes than others (automated prosumer TBC/DNR circuits have their limits, even in the classic JVCs and Panasonics).

The 860 is a very late-period model with more JVC than Panasonic engineering, so it does not have some of the traditional front-panel hardware controls familiar to owners of earlier, similar "genuine Panasonic' models. Those more common older models did have a physical sliding lever which allowed somewhat finer control of the "custom detail/sharpness" circuit. The newer 860 has virtually no physical controls on the front panel aside from separate TBC and DNR on/off buttons (an excellent idea one rarely sees in VCRs: typically the the TBC and DNR are linked in a single button, diminishing versatility with different tapes). Other than having the desirable TBC/DNR, the 860 was more of a consumer than prosumer unit: no flying erase head or other editing features that were standard in nearly every TBC/DNR-equipped vcr. Half the instruction manual is devoted to the inane "tape library" feature that nobody outside Japan ever used, most of the rest is devoted to timer program features, with perhaps 15% of the text regarding actual operation of the unit and its tape function menus.

[thecode]

Orsetto, thank you for your long and very clear analysis, I confirm that the Metz VF61 has just 3 options (soft, sharp and auto). Also, I checked the Panasonic HS1000 and I found the slider for sharpness that you were talking about and, yes, my Metz has no slider, at all. At this time I have understood that default setting of HS860 has high noise level in its output. At this point I have 2 doubts:

1) First of all I ask if it makes sense I sell it and buy another model /for example Panasonic HS1000 or JVC 7600/7700 (Philips VR1000)
2) Second of all. May I assume that if I capture in AVI with loseless codec I can post-edit the ewsult to obtaing a less noise video, maybe more saturated and less bright? I mean: Can I reach the same result with software help compared to other more performant VCRs

The answer to the previous questions let me decide if I need to sell it an buy another or stay with the Metz.

Many forum users think that noise video is exactly what is recorded in the tape and the soft videos output of other VHS are just post-processed videos and not real and something it loses some detail that you could manage better with post-processing... is it true?

Thank you to all will take time to help me.

[dellsam34]

Yes. that's not high noise, that's how a consumer analog tape should look like, As you said the Samsung is indeed over processing the picture and loosing a lot of details in the way which makes the overall quality looks like polished plastic, If you like that kind of look you can still do it in post processing or just use the Samsung VCR. The Metz by the way did a great job clearing that chroma stains from the picture just like the JVC high end units.

[orsetto]

The problem today is finding these premium VCRs in good enough condition that they don't need repairs, because not so easy to get VCRs properly repaired anymore. A great advantage of the Panasonic 860 (Metz) is that its among the very last VCRs made with the TBC/DNR feature: since it was mfd circa 2000-2001, it uses much more modern reliable integrated circuit boards that are significantly less prone to failure than the better-known, older, more common Panasonic models like NV-SF200. If you did not spend a lot of money for the Metz, I'd recommend you keep it and perhaps add another different VCR: you could always sell the Metz later after your project is finished. The Panasonic 860 is considered by many to be among the best PAL vcrs with TBC/DNR, but there are scattered owner reports that suggest its performance can be compromised by head wear. The more worn the heads of an 860, the more likely it is to inject spurious noise artifacts into its 3D NR circuit. Such a level of head wear would seem rather unlikely to strike most owners, however, given how new the 860 is compared to other popular VCRs. You can get a good overview of PAL vcrs at this guide (scroll past the NTSC vcrs to see PAL models below) at the DigitalFAQ website, which also has a wealth of other info about VHS capture:

http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/video-restore/1567-vcr-buying-guide.html

The issue of your Samsung and Metz both playing OK on the TV but differently thru your capture device is a difficulty many of us deal with. Each capture device reacts a bit differently with different VCRs, particularly to how each VCR alters the signal with its specific type of TBC+DNR. That is why threads like this often suggest owning at least two TBC/DNR vcrs of completely different brands (usually a Panasonic and a JVC) to provide alternatives when there is a conflict with the capture unit or tapes tracking. The Panasonic 860 was made at a time when Panasonic was putting their name on a few JVC vcr designs, so the two brands could cooperate on production costs: this was much more apparent in North American NTSC models, the 860 PAL model is not as obviously JVC and may contain elements of both brands' circuitry. So it is hard to say whether you would benefit more from adding an older Panasonic, or a JVC, so that you would have two clearly different VCR chassis. It might be worth trying a different capture device first, to see if it is more compatible with your Metz.

The final, newer vcrs from both JVC and Panasonic seem to have simplified, less versatile settings for TBC/DNR. Earlier Panasonics offered a physical slider for picture detail, which interacted with additional switches that boosted or reduced detail/noise. Earlier JVCs had more extensive menu choices for picture detail, DNR, and an additional stabilizer circuit. The tradeoff is the older models are usually not as well-preserved or reliable as the newer, and often we have little choice: you can only buy what is available to you in your country. This gets further complicated by re-branding arrangements in certain countries, i.e. Blaupunkt and Metz selling Panasonic, Phillips selling JVC (very little info on the web about these variations, most info is specific to original JVC and Panasonic models).

One last point we often forget: not everyone has the same visual preference. Most people on forums like this prefer "perfect" in the terms discussed and presented here by examples. But some prefer a much softer look that might be considered "blurry" by others, and some feel that a noisier capture is in some respects a more natural representation of how VHS is supposed to look. If you are doing these captures mostly for yourself and nobody else is depending on them, it is perfectly OK to decide you prefer something not quite perfect. Just keep in mind that the TV or computer monitor you're using now also influences the appearance of your capture: the further you go away from neutral to more noisy or more soft, the more you risk the capture will look unacceptable in a few years on a different TV or monitor.