Windows 10 and TV tuners issues

[Dencorub]

Hi All,

I am building a HTPC, and I am having a boatload of trouble with the TV Tuners.

System is:

AsRock J4005-ITX motherboard (Gemini lake SoC with Celeron CPU)
2 TV Tuners:

A Pinnacle PCTV 3010iX (PCI-E) - Tried 2 of these, same result.
AfaTech AF9035 USB

Software:

Windows 10 1809
DV Scheduler 6.05
ProgDVB x64 Latest
BlackGold Drivers for the Pinnacle, copied drivers from my Win 7 box for AfaTech

I have previously set-up a Pinnacle device on a Windows 10 box, but that was an earlier version of Windows 10. The supplied (by Win10) drivers kept crashing the PC, but the BlackGold drivers fixed the issue, and allowed us to scan for, and pickup, TV channels.

With this system, I can scan channels, and get both level and quality values in both ProgDVB and DV Scheduler that are the same as my Win7 box, but no TV channels are found.

Windows is fully up to date, and apart from drivers for the motherboard, the only other software installed was DV Scheduler, Java, and VLC. When DV Scheduler failed to find channels, I then tried ProgDVB.

Can anyone shed some light on why this might be happening, and any possible solutions?

[usually_quiet]

Pinnacle's newest official drivers for the Pinnacle PCTV 3010iX are intended for XP and Vista, which means it was probably released no later than 2007, 12 years ago. It's no surprise that Windows 10 support is not great.

If you only need it for its digital tuners, there are undoubtedly PC TV tuner devices with better DVB-T tuners available now.
These are two examples:
http://www.hauppauge.fr/site/products/data_quadhd.html
https://shopeu.silicondust.com/shop/product/hdhomerun-connect-quatro-p-n-hdhr5-4dteu/

I'm guessing that you are located somewhere in Europe, but these tuners are also sold in the UK.

[Dencorub]

Pinnacle's newest official drivers for the Pinnacle PCTV 3010iX are intended for XP and Vista, which means it was probably released no later than 2007, 12 years ago. It's no surprise that Windows 10 support is not great.

It's true the Pinnacle drivers don't do the job, but as mentioned, I have had these cards work under Windows 10 with the BlackGold drivers.

If you only need it for its digital tuners, there are undoubtedly PC TV tuner devices with better DVB-T tuners available now.

There may well be better cards, but these cards are around the traps for less than $20, and work fine as a digital tuner. I have 3 in my HTPC, and they work flawlessly.

I'm guessing that you are located somewhere in Europe, but these tuners are also sold in the UK.

I'm in Australia.

I plan to try re-installing an older version of Windows 10 to see if that makes a difference.

I'm hoping it's not something within the hardware used on the motherboard ...

[hydra3333]

Well, Hauppauge WinTV-quadHD are really good, never ever had a problem with them in years, including latest Win10.

http://www.hauppauge.co.uk/site/products/data_quadhd.html

Kogan in Aus stocks them. US and DE manufacturer websites can be visited.

You get what you pay for

Also used 7164 twin-tuners and they work OK; preferred the quadHD tuner since 4x tuners onboard only takes up 1 pcie slot ... unless you have two of them of course

Dencorub ? Goodness me, don't let that person touch your sensitive bits https://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/showthread.php?t=1615168

[Dencorub]

Well, Hauppauge WinTV-quadHD are really good, never ever had a problem with them in years,

For $170, one would expect them to be really good!

You get what you pay for

You certainly do. That's why, until this incident, I was very pleased with my $20 dual tuners. I certainly understand the idea of paying for top quality stuff, but 4x the price is just a tad too hard to swallow.

Also used 7164 twin-tuners and they work OK; preferred the quadHD tuner since 4x tuners onboard only takes up 1 pcie slot ... unless you have two of them of course

When I built my HTPC, I bought a board with 3 PCI-e x1 slots. It's been running with 3 of these cards happily for a couple of years. For the price of that quad, I got the motherboard, CPU, and 2 tuner cards to add to the one I already had.

Buying new stuff because something doesn't seem to work any more is last on the check list, especially when you know these cards do, or at least did, work under Windows 10.

[usually_quiet]

Pinnacle's newest official drivers for the Pinnacle PCTV 3010iX are intended for XP and Vista, which means it was probably released no later than 2007, 12 years ago. It's no surprise that Windows 10 support is not great.

It's true the Pinnacle drivers don't do the job, but as mentioned, I have had these cards work under Windows 10 with the BlackGold drivers.

If you only need it for its digital tuners, there are undoubtedly PC TV tuner devices with better DVB-T tuners available now.

There may well be better cards, but these cards are around the traps for less than $20, and work fine as a digital tuner. I have 3 in my HTPC, and they work flawlessly.

I'm guessing that you are located somewhere in Europe, but these tuners are also sold in the UK.

I'm in Australia.

I plan to try re-installing an older version of Windows 10 to see if that makes a difference.

I'm hoping it's not something within the hardware used on the motherboard ...

I understand that you are looking to make your old, inexpensive tuners work but if you have to be concerned about the possibility that the next Windows 10 update will break compatibility again, then maybe the savings isn't worth the trouble.

HDhomerun also sells products for Australia: https://www.silicondust.com/product/hdhomerun-quatro/ There is a dual tuner model that costs less. https://www.silicondust.com/product/hdhomerun-duo/

I own a different HDHomerun tuner which I have been using for the past 4 years. All the current HDhomerun tuners can either be attached to a home network, which allows them to be visible to computers/smartphones/tablets (running Android, Windows 7/8.1/10, Linux, iOS or OS X) on the network, or to the computer's Ethernet port, in which case the device is visible to only that computer. The AsRock J4005-ITX has only one expansion slot. Someday you might have another use for that slot.

[Dencorub]

I understand that you are looking to make your old, inexpensive tuners work but if you have to be concerned about the possibility that the next Windows 10 update will break compatibility again, then maybe the savings isn't worth the trouble.

Maybe, but buying new hardware is no guarantee that it will work with future updates to Windows either.

The AsRock J4005-ITX has only one expansion slot. Someday you might have another use for that slot.

Yes, but building a system to meet some new use sometime in the future is a bit silly. This board does precisely what I want of it, and significantly cheaper than other options available.

Anyway, to finish off this thread, and for the benefit of others with a card based on the Philips/NXP SAA7162 chip set, I have managed to get the card working a treat. After more research, I found drivers for the DigitalNow DNTV Live! Dual Hybrid PCIe S2 and S3 (of which I already had 2 of in other PC's) have a driver that works.

It can be downloaded at http://www.digitalnow.com.au/DNTV/DualHybridPCIe15761623drivers.zip

I can now rest, at least until the next update to Windows ...

[usually_quiet]

I understand that you are looking to make your old, inexpensive tuners work but if you have to be concerned about the possibility that the next Windows 10 update will break compatibility again, then maybe the savings isn't worth the trouble.

Maybe, but buying new hardware is no guarantee that it will work with future updates to Windows either.

If a product has reached end-of-life, in most cases there won't be new drivers issued to fix the problem. Newer products are more likely to be fixed.

The AsRock J4005-ITX has only one expansion slot. Someday you might have another use for that slot.

Yes, but building a system to meet some new use sometime in the future is a bit silly. This board does precisely what I want of it, and significantly cheaper than other options available.

Adding a low-power graphics card to an HTPC is a very common upgrade, and you might have a need for one if you ever get a UHD TV. A Gemini Lake processor's Intel UHD graphics 605 support 4K output but doesn't support HDR of any kind and Intel has announced that there are no plans to add HDR support at a later date. I know this because I recently looked at the AsRock J5005-ITX as an HTPC solution.

[Dencorub]

If a product has reached end-of-life, in most cases there won't be new drivers issued to fix the problem. Newer products are more likely to be fixed.

Precisely. And who's to say that shiny new card won't be EOL tomorrow?

Adding a low-power graphics card to an HTPC is a very common upgrade, and you might have a need for one if you ever get a UHD TV. A Gemini Lake processor's Intel UHD graphics 605 support 4K output but doesn't support HDR of any kind and Intel has announced that there are no plans to add HDR support at a later date. I know this because I recently looked at the AsRock J5005-ITX as an HTPC solution.

This board plays 4K h265 content just fine. I have a UHD TV, with HDR, but it will be some time before most HTPC's will need to really handle HDR. It may or may not become another fad like 3D. If HDR becomes a must have in a few years, I can afford to build a new HTPC, because I haven't spent hundreds more than necessary on this build.

As I said, building a PC today for what might come in the future is fraught with difficulty. Save the money now, and then buy a new system when those future needs require it.

I see no reason to go and spend money if I can use what I already have available.

[usually_quiet]

If a product has reached end-of-life, in most cases there won't be new drivers issued to fix the problem. Newer products are more likely to be fixed.

Precisely. And who's to say that shiny new card won't be EOL tomorrow?

What a preposterous argument. Your Pinnacle model has already been out of production for quite a while. It's cheap for good reason. It is 12+ years old and not especially well-known. Many if not most have likely failed and been removed from circulation at this point.

I would bet against the TV tuner devices that I suggested being declared EOL for several more years. All of them are under 3 years old and they are popular with HTPC enthusiasts. Also, Hauppage and Silicondust are among the healthier companies still in the PC TV tuner business. Hauppauge bought Pinnacle's PCTV assets when they were sold off by Avid in 2008.

Adding a low-power graphics card to an HTPC is a very common upgrade, and you might have a need for one if you ever get a UHD TV. A Gemini Lake processor's Intel UHD graphics 605 support 4K output but doesn't support HDR of any kind and Intel has announced that there are no plans to add HDR support at a later date. I know this because I recently looked at the AsRock J5005-ITX as an HTPC solution.

This board plays 4K h265 content just fine. I have a UHD TV, with HDR, but it will be some time before most HTPC's will need to really handle HDR. It may or may not become another fad like 3D. If HDR becomes a must have in a few years, I can afford to build a new HTPC, because I haven't spent hundreds more than necessary on this build.

HDR won't be a fad. More streaming services are using it and all the UHD TVs I've looked at in the past few months support some form of HDR. HDR doesn't have problems approaching the severity of the problems 3D had. It really does make a difference if done properly, assuming a top-tier UHD TV with appropriate support for that form of HDR is used for viewing. The cheapest UHD TVs with HDR support don't have panels with the characteristics needed to do a good job.

[Dencorub]

What a preposterous argument. Your Pinnacle model has already been out of production for quite a while. It's cheap for good reason. It is 12+ years old and not especially well-known. Many if not most have likely failed and been removed from circulation at this point.

Why? It's been less than a year since I successfully installed one of these tuners into a W10 box. There's nothing to say your fancy new card will not be given the boot tomorrow, and a new update to Windows in 6 months renders it useless. Still ... some people really do love the taste of sand!

HDR won't be a fad. More streaming services are using it and all the UHD TVs I've looked at in the past few months support some form of HDR. HDR doesn't have problems approaching the severity of the problems 3D had. It really does make a difference if done properly, assuming a top-tier UHD TV with appropriate support for that form of HDR is used for viewing. The cheapest UHD TVs with HDR support don't have panels with the characteristics needed to do a good job.

They said all that about 3D as well. It probably failed for the same reason - cheap TV's were rubbish at it. Sadly, most people buy cheaper TV's. What percentage of buyers can really afford a top tier TV? And then you have to find one with appropriate support as well!

Anyway, I've posted a resolution to the original issue, so the thread can now be closed.

[lordsmurf]

Precisely. And who's to say that shiny new card won't be EOL tomorrow?

What a preposterous argument.

I've seen that happen before. Within a few months, a product is suddenly unsupported.

@Dencorub

The key to legacy video products is to use a known-working legacy OS. WinXP and Win7 are the best OS for video, with Win10 being the worst. Every 6 months, an update breaks something. We've seen that for a couple of years now.

I just do not understand the "need" for Win10. It's just the OS. An OS isn't special, the software/hardware is.

If you insist on the new OS, then you're also forced to buy new hardware that plays nice with it. At least hopefully, until that update tanks it as well.

[usually_quiet]

Precisely. And who's to say that shiny new card won't be EOL tomorrow?

What a preposterous argument.

I've seen that happen before. Within a few months, a product is suddenly unsupported.

That situation hasn't applied to recent Hauppauge TV tuner cards. As an example, I have one of their tuners, the WinTV HVR-2250, which I bought in 2012. It was in production from 2009 until 2016. At that point, there was a major hardware revision (new digital tuner), which resulted in a new model number (WinTV HVR-2255). The revised model continued to be produced until early 2018. Hauppauge typically supports their tuners for a few years after EOL. The WinTV HVR-2250 and WinTV HVR-2255 are still receiving driver support, and share the same driver download.

[Edit]I forgot to mention that my WinTV HVR-2250 has Windows 10 drivers and is working OK on Windows 10 1709. Due to the number of years that I have had it in service, I still plan to replace it in the next year or so, probably with the WinTV-quadHD.

[usually_quiet]

What a preposterous argument. Your Pinnacle model has already been out of production for quite a while. It's cheap for good reason. It is 12+ years old and not especially well-known. Many if not most have likely failed and been removed from circulation at this point.

Why? It's been less than a year since I successfully installed one of these tuners into a W10 box. There's nothing to say your fancy new card will not be given the boot tomorrow, and a new update to Windows in 6 months renders it useless. Still ... some people really do love the taste of sand!

I am not exactly a spendthrift, but I know enough about Windows 10 to realize that insisting on using very old hardware with spotty driver support on a Windows 10 PC is going to result in a lot of frustration. If anyone has his head in the sand, it's you.

HDR won't be a fad. More streaming services are using it and all the UHD TVs I've looked at in the past few months support some form of HDR. HDR doesn't have problems approaching the severity of the problems 3D had. It really does make a difference if done properly, assuming a top-tier UHD TV with appropriate support for that form of HDR is used for viewing. The cheapest UHD TVs with HDR support don't have panels with the characteristics needed to do a good job.

They said all that about 3D as well. It probably failed for the same reason - cheap TV's were rubbish at it. Sadly, most people buy cheaper TV's. What percentage of buyers can really afford a top tier TV? And then you have to find one with appropriate support as well!

You do realize that a lot of people said at the outset that 4K TVs would be a fad but clearly, they are not.

3D had intractable problems. Anaglyph 3D had poor color fidelity but modern 3D technologies had big drawbacks too. Viewing angles were a problem using polarized glasses, and shutter glasses produced headaches in a fair number of people.

Also, 3D never got to the point where the majority of HD TVs supported it. HDR already has wide support on UHD TVs. Yesterday I looked at the online catalog for a major consumer electronics store here, Best Buy, and every single UHD model that they are not clearing from stock has at least HDR 10 support. Over time, the panel technology used now for high-end TVs will find its way down to cheaper TVs.