Best codec and container format for specific need (home video)

[nckhrs]

Hi,

I have a bunch of AVI files from my MiniDV camcorder (Sony DCR-HC30) - transferred them using Firewire.
They are home video (family videos).

Video format: 24.4 Mbps, 720x480 (4:3), 29.97 (30000/1001) fps, NTSC, DVCPRO
Audio format: 1024 kbps, 32 kHz, 16 bits, 2 channels, PCM (Little/Signed).

Goals/needs:
1. Save space. Even though I may have enough space to store them as AVI, but I would prefer to convert them into compressed format to save spaces (and portability too).
2. I would like to be able to play them on a Blu-Ray player (to watch them on TV) either via USB/disc, or perhaps stream them from HTPC or home media server.

As for goal #2, my Blu-Ray is quite old, I don't mind to upgrade it to a newer one. I don't have HTPC nor home media server either (only Roku - if it counts). I lean toward upgrading my Blu-Ray as it sounds more practical and cost-effective (please let me know if I'm wrong).

My questions:
1. What codec and container format would be the best to achieve my goals? They're home videos, I don't look for super cutting edge codec. As long as it has decent quality and I can still achieve my goals. H.264 with AAC/AC3 perhaps? MP4 instead of MKV for the container perhaps? Other ideas? Pros/cons?
2. Is there a better way to achieve my goals (while keeping the simplicity/practicality and cost-effectiveness)?

Thank you so much.

[_Al_]

MP4 (H.264 with AAC), that is about best compatibility.

[LMotlow]

The consumer DV format is a shoot-and-watch obsolete format and is a lossy codec. It was never intended or designed as a lossless compression-free archival medium. All further lossy encoding (such as h.264) will degrade the original image. Period. Lossy encodes have never been archival quality. Repeat: never. Your best quality archive codec for DV is its current SONY codec. You can use very high bitrate h.264 or even lossless h.264 to maintain a higher level of the original quality. Just remember that with any lossy codec, lossy means "you lose". Whatever is discarded in re-encodes can never be recovered.

Obviously some folks will recommend some lossy codec or other that is "near-lossless", "virtually lossless", etc. ad nauseam. Note: near-lossless and virtually lossless are still lossy. There is no such thing as a lossy codec that is not lossy. Some lossy codecs are just more lossy or less lossy than others. They are never lossless.

[pandy]

The consumer DV format is a shoot-and-watch obsolete format and is a lossy codec. It was never intended or designed as a lossless compression-free archival medium. All further lossy encoding (such as h.264) will degrade the original image. Period. Lossy encodes have never been archival quality. Repeat: never. Your best quality archive codec for DV is its current SONY codec. You can use very high bitrate h.264 or even lossless h.264 to maintain a higher level of the original quality. Just remember that with any lossy codec, lossy means "you lose". Whatever is discarded in re-encodes can never be recovered.

Obviously some folks will recommend some lossy codec or other that is "near-lossless", "virtually lossless", etc. ad nauseam. Note: near-lossless and virtually lossless are still lossy. There is no such thing as a lossy codec that is not lossy. Some lossy codecs are just more lossy or less lossy than others. They are never lossless.

Wow, impressive and true but most important is laid in subjective not absolute quality loss - if customer can't distinguish quality between DV source and more common codec after transcoding (even if transformation from DV to other codec is lossy) then i think customer will prefer lossy transcoding if this provide some functional benefits like easy of use, portability etc. There is no sense to have absolute quality source and being unable to easy use it...

MP4 (H.264 with AAC), that is about best compatibility.

Perhaps AC3 audio will be more compatible.

[Sharc]

Goals/needs:
2. I would like to be able to play them on a Blu-Ray player …..

The only SAFE way is to re-encode your videos in Blu-ray compliant format & structure, and burn to disc.
Maybe this sounds overcautious, but anything else bears the risk of being rejected, depending on the specs and capabilities of your current or future Blu-Ray player.

[amaipaipai]

No, don't burn anything on disc or use USB thumb drive for long term storage. as Sharc said, use Blu-ray compliant format and store it a external HDD, NAS Server, etc.

[nckhrs]

MP4 (H.264 with AAC), that is about best compatibility.

Thanks Al

[nckhrs]

The consumer DV format is a shoot-and-watch obsolete format and is a lossy codec. It was never intended or designed as a lossless compression-free archival medium. All further lossy encoding (such as h.264) will degrade the original image. Period. Lossy encodes have never been archival quality. Repeat: never. Your best quality archive codec for DV is its current SONY codec. You can use very high bitrate h.264 or even lossless h.264 to maintain a higher level of the original quality. Just remember that with any lossy codec, lossy means "you lose". Whatever is discarded in re-encodes can never be recovered.

Obviously some folks will recommend some lossy codec or other that is "near-lossless", "virtually lossless", etc. ad nauseam. Note: near-lossless and virtually lossless are still lossy. There is no such thing as a lossy codec that is not lossy. Some lossy codecs are just more lossy or less lossy than others. They are never lossless.

Thanks LMotlow, points taken

[nckhrs]

The consumer DV format is a shoot-and-watch obsolete format and is a lossy codec. It was never intended or designed as a lossless compression-free archival medium. All further lossy encoding (such as h.264) will degrade the original image. Period. Lossy encodes have never been archival quality. Repeat: never. Your best quality archive codec for DV is its current SONY codec. You can use very high bitrate h.264 or even lossless h.264 to maintain a higher level of the original quality. Just remember that with any lossy codec, lossy means "you lose". Whatever is discarded in re-encodes can never be recovered.

Obviously some folks will recommend some lossy codec or other that is "near-lossless", "virtually lossless", etc. ad nauseam. Note: near-lossless and virtually lossless are still lossy. There is no such thing as a lossy codec that is not lossy. Some lossy codecs are just more lossy or less lossy than others. They are never lossless.

Wow, impressive and true but most important is laid in subjective not absolute quality loss - if customer can't distinguish quality between DV source and more common codec after transcoding (even if transformation from DV to other codec is lossy) then i think customer will prefer lossy transcoding if this provide some functional benefits like easy of use, portability etc. There is no sense to have absolute quality source and being unable to easy use it...

Thanks pandy, very well said. Yes, I completely agree with you. As long as the quality loss is "indistinguishable" (that's what I meant by decent quality) and it helps me to achieve my goals, then I'm ok. Yes, finding balance means I have to sacrifice something and try to get the best possible outcome from both size and quality worlds.

Perhaps AC3 audio will be more compatible.

Thanks a lot. How about for future compatibility? AC3 was originally for DVD, and AAC was more for viewing in portable devices (web videos), right? I will do some reading on AC3. Thanks for the input.

[nckhrs]

Goals/needs:
2. I would like to be able to play them on a Blu-Ray player …..

The only SAFE way is to re-encode your videos in Blu-ray compliant format & structure, and burn to disc.
Maybe this sounds overcautious, but anything else bears the risk of being rejected, depending on the specs and capabilities of your current or future Blu-Ray player.

Thanks Sharc. You help me realize that portability has more weight on my goal. Worse come to worst, I can always play them on a laptop and connect it to the TV via HDMI.
I think I now realize that I would rather to store them in external HDD, and also burn them (backup) in Blu-Ray disc as files.

Thanks a lot!

[nckhrs]

No, don't burn anything on disc or use USB thumb drive for long term storage. as Sharc said, use Blu-ray compliant format and store it a external HDD, NAS Server, etc.

Thanks amaipaipai!
Yes, that's what I had in mind after reading Sharc's response.

Btw, I understand we don't know the future, but as far as backward and future compatibility, any suggestion what would be the best Blu-Ray compliant format? Or could you refer me to an article or post perhaps?

Thanks a lot!

[nckhrs]

Btw, I found some references:
https://www.videohelp.com/hd

One quick question (sorry if it's a dumb question), it says that Blu-Ray now is using H.265.
Does it mean H.265 capable player will still be able to play H.264?

Or maybe a more general question:
Is there any convention how far back new Blu-Ray player should support?

What I know is that DVD supports MPEG-2 and MPEG-1, but Blu Ray no longer supports MPEG-1.
I just want to know, if I pick H.264, how far to the future it will be playable.

Thanks in advance.

[_Al_]

I recommended MP4 (H.264 and AAC) for playback compatibility, if you want it to be close to the original choose CRF 16, 17 max in settings (if using x264 encoder),

BUT keep your originals, back them up on more hardisks, in different places, like was recommended here by LMotlow, back them up, do not erase them. This is a unique content, no one has it, only you.

[nckhrs]

I recommended MP4 (H.264 and AAC) for playback compatibility, if you want it to be close to the original choose CRF 16, 17 max in settings (if using x264 encoder),

BUT keep your originals, back them up on more hardisks, in different places, like was recommended here by LMotlow, back them up, do not erase them. This is a unique content, no one has it, only you.

Thanks a lot Al!

I read that for 720x480, Blu-Ray only supports interlaced. It sounds like I don't need to convert it to progressive first and leave it as interlaced.
Is that right?

Oh, one last thing. I need to merge several files.
Is it better to merge the AVI files first, or encode them first and merge after?

[_Al_]

Use some NLE software, Magix Movie Studio, Adobe Elements and others, they are about or less than $50, it is DEFINITELY worthy.
You set projects as DV avi NTSC, load your videos, edit it, make a clips or short movies and export again as DV AVI NTSC. That is lossless workflow. Those are your archives. Remember those segments does not have to be hour long, lenght could be chosen by event lenght. More important seem to be proper naming of those clips , better in year-month-day-time-description format. So it is sorted out in directories chronologically and also you can find events quickly. So you can make 5-10 minute clips, not long, long movies. That had changed from the past.

Only then proceed to encode those files to MP4 for playback. Yes, you can leave it interlaced and anamorphic. That is slightly less compatible with devices or players (some might ignore aspect ratio, some cannot properly deinterlace). But that is not important you still have backed up those edited DV AVI NTSC. You can batch encode them to whatever you want later. Who knows, there will be some powerful engines in 20 years and you can make HD progressive 120fps and de-noising it at the same time in no time, quick, who knows. Point is to keep originals. Maybe those MP4 and DVavis keeping in the same directories for the sake of not to be confused later, both having the same name. That's what I do anyway.

[pandy]

Consider BD spec as recommendation to not go over particular border (like level, profile etc) - unless you are doing real BD then most of BD players is capable to play 480p60 same as 720p60.

[Cornucopia]

Blu-ray (the original, main, HD version) does not use h.265. It has support for MPEG2, VC-1, and h.264/AVC.
H.265/HEVC is only supported in the UHD version, and requires other metadata that declares it is conforming to the UHD version even if the resolution is still HD. This means it needs UHD BD level authoring tools, and "Level 6" players to play it back.

Scott

[nckhrs]

Use some NLE software, Magix Movie Studio, Adobe Elements and others, they are about or less than $50, it is DEFINITELY worthy.
You set projects as DV avi NTSC, load your videos, edit it, make a clips or short movies and export again as DV AVI NTSC. That is lossless workflow. Those are your archives. Remember those segments does not have to be hour long, lenght could be chosen by event length. More important seem to be proper naming of those clips , better in year-month-day-time-description format. So it is sorted out in directories chronologically and also you can find events quickly. So you can make 5-10 minute clips, not long, long movies. That had changed from the past.

Only then proceed to encode those files to MP4 for playback. Yes, you can leave it interlaced and anamorphic. That is slightly less compatible with devices or players (some might ignore aspect ratio, some cannot properly deinterlace). But that is not important you still have backed up those edited DV AVI NTSC. You can batch encode them to whatever you want later. Who knows, there will be some powerful engines in 20 years and you can make HD progressive 120fps and de-noising it at the same time in no time, quick, who knows. Point is to keep originals. Maybe those MP4 and DVavis keeping in the same directories for the sake of not to be confused later, both having the same name. That's what I do anyway.

Thanks a lot Al. I used DVDLabs back when Blu-Ray hadn't existed yet. I am surprised and delighted how affordable software these days.
Are all of NLE capable of joining lossless-ly using the workflow you described?

Do you have any preference for NLE software?
I checked the review, I love Magix Movie Edit and they have it on sale for the Premium (is it worthy to go Premium? Deal: $347 off)
But I was a bit worried with the review saying that there are extra costs to activate codecs, and also it's not as easy to use as Adobe Elements.
What do you think?

Also, what do you think of these three?
- Corel VideoStudio Ultimate
- CyberLink PowerDirector
- Pinnacle Studio Ultimate

Thanks a lot!

[nckhrs]

Consider BD spec as recommendation to not go over particular border (like level, profile etc) - unless you are doing real BD then most of BD players is capable to play 480p60 same as 720p60.

Thanks pandy!

[nckhrs]

Blu-ray (the original, main, HD version) does not use h.265. It has support for MPEG2, VC-1, and h.264/AVC.
H.265/HEVC is only supported in the UHD version, and requires other metadata that declares it is conforming to the UHD version even if the resolution is still HD. This means it needs UHD BD level authoring tools, and "Level 6" players to play it back.

Scott

Oh wow, thanks a lot for the comprehensive info Scott!
I was referring to what it says here: https://www.videohelp.com/hd
I didn't see it mentioned H.264, but I know it was the original Blu-Ray standard.

[_Al_]

Thanks a lot Al. I used DVDLabs back when Blu-Ray hadn't existed yet. I am surprised and delighted how affordable software these days.
Are all of NLE capable of joining lossless-ly using the workflow you described?

Do you have any preference for NLE software?
I checked the review, I love Magix Movie Edit and they have it on sale for the Premium (is it worthy to go Premium? Deal: $347 off)
But I was a bit worried with the review saying that there are extra costs to activate codecs, and also it's not as easy to use as Adobe Elements.
What do you think?

Also, what do you think of these three?
- Corel VideoStudio Ultimate
- CyberLink PowerDirector
- Pinnacle Studio Ultimate

Thanks a lot!

Magix had bought Sony Vegas. so I meant Former Sony Vegas Movie Studio, but not Sony any more. Or Vegas Movie Studio Platinum .

About that DVavi,
you do not need those more expensive versions, Pro versions, and for example even older versions of NLE would work, because DVavi has been around for about 20 years, you might have some pentium around with ancient Premiere, and editing and exporting of DVavi again would still work.Perhaps not using win10 and of course MP4 export would suck, nothing like nowadays standard, at that time there was DVD export the thing. Or MP4 export did not even exist yet. Not that you would do this like that, just an info.

So todays versions are a better choice. You load your DVavi's, edit it select region for export, then choosing DVavi it will encode exact lossless copy of original (except if you use some effects or titles, so don't). Then you can export Mp4 right away for viewing purposes. You can do it all in that NLE software. And also, because it is a new tool, you can use it for any other videos as well.

DVavi is I frame format, frames could be constructed from information that is only in that frame. Imagine DVavi like sequence of JPG pictures, each jpg is standalone info about frame. So frames do not have to be decoded and encoded again because of editing. You get exact copy of original (except places you create cross dissolve etc.) It is old format. Nowadays videos use long GOP (Group Of Pictures), it is more efficient to carry data, that means only I frame in some range of frames is present and other frames store changes only, videos from web might have about 250 frames long GOP, videos on Blu-ray only 25, 30 frames for example. So if you edit nowadays videos and cut video in the middle, it has to be decompressed and encoded again. And because of these complexities, no one even bothers much , meaning nowadays NLE, to edit lossless video and only reconstruct those broken GOP's. Old DVavi is a gem in this matter.

[nckhrs]

Magix had bought Sony Vegas. so I meant Former Sony Vegas Movie Studio, but not Sony any more. Or Vegas Movie Studio Platinum .

About that DVavi,
you do not need those more expensive versions, Pro versions, and for example even older versions of NLE would work, because DVavi has been around for about 20 years, you might have some pentium around with ancient Premiere, and editing and exporting of DVavi again would still work.Perhaps not using win10 and of course MP4 export would suck, nothing like nowadays standard, at that time there was DVD export the thing. Or MP4 export did not even exist yet. Not that you would do this like that, just an info.

So todays versions are a better choice. You load your DVavi's, edit it select region for export, then choosing DVavi it will encode exact lossless copy of original (except if you use some effects or titles, so don't). Then you can export Mp4 right away for viewing purposes. You can do it all in that NLE software. And also, because it is a new tool, you can use it for any other videos as well.

DVavi is I frame format, frames could be constructed from information that is only in that frame. Imagine DVavi like sequence of JPG pictures, each jpg is standalone info about frame. So frames do not have to be decoded and encoded again because of editing. You get exact copy of original (except places you create cross dissolve etc.) It is old format. Nowadays videos use long GOP (Group Of Pictures), it is more efficient to carry data, that means only I frame in some range of frames is present and other frames store changes only, videos from web might have about 250 frames long GOP, videos on Blu-ray only 25, 30 frames for example. So if you edit nowadays videos and cut video in the middle, it has to be decompressed and encoded again. And because of these complexities, no one even bothers much , meaning nowadays NLE, to edit lossless video and only reconstruct those broken GOP's. Old DVavi is a gem in this matter.

I see, thanks a lot
Now I'm in the journey of picking the NLE.
So confusing, lots of mediocre review for Vegas. Corel seems good, but unheard of. Adobe Premiere said to miss some basic things.

[Sharc]

Magix had bought Sony Vegas. so I meant Former Sony Vegas Movie Studio, but not Sony any more. Or Vegas Movie Studio Platinum .

About that DVavi,
you do not need those more expensive versions, Pro versions, and for example even older versions of NLE would work, because DVavi has been around for about 20 years, you might have some pentium around with ancient Premiere, and editing and exporting of DVavi again would still work.Perhaps not using win10 and of course MP4 export would suck, nothing like nowadays standard, at that time there was DVD export the thing. Or MP4 export did not even exist yet. Not that you would do this like that, just an info.

So todays versions are a better choice. You load your DVavi's, edit it select region for export, then choosing DVavi it will encode exact lossless copy of original (except if you use some effects or titles, so don't). Then you can export Mp4 right away for viewing purposes. You can do it all in that NLE software. And also, because it is a new tool, you can use it for any other videos as well.

DVavi is I frame format, frames could be constructed from information that is only in that frame. Imagine DVavi like sequence of JPG pictures, each jpg is standalone info about frame. So frames do not have to be decoded and encoded again because of editing. You get exact copy of original (except places you create cross dissolve etc.) It is old format. Nowadays videos use long GOP (Group Of Pictures), it is more efficient to carry data, that means only I frame in some range of frames is present and other frames store changes only, videos from web might have about 250 frames long GOP, videos on Blu-ray only 25, 30 frames for example. So if you edit nowadays videos and cut video in the middle, it has to be decompressed and encoded again. And because of these complexities, no one even bothers much , meaning nowadays NLE, to edit lossless video and only reconstruct those broken GOP's. Old DVavi is a gem in this matter.

I see, thanks a lot
Now I'm in the journey of picking the NLE.
So confusing, lots of mediocre review for Vegas. Corel seems good, but unheard of. Adobe Premiere said to miss some basic things.

Try Shotcut before you waste your buck.
https://www.videohelp.com/software/Shotcut

[nckhrs]

I see, thanks a lot
Now I'm in the journey of picking the NLE.
So confusing, lots of mediocre review for Vegas. Corel seems good, but unheard of. Adobe Premiere said to miss some basic things.

Try Shotcut before you waste your buck.
https://www.videohelp.com/software/Shotcut

Thanks a lot, Sharc!
Btw, yesterday I found that DaVinci Resolve and Hitfilm Express are free. Any experience with them?

[amaipaipai]

Davinci is amazing.
Use the last 14 version, 15 is full of bugs now and requires you to have an up to date machine.

[_Al_]

Guys, that NLE needs to import DVavi without problems, identify it , aspect ratios, and also export that DVavi without encoding it. There is a reason I named those above, because they just work, price is quite negligible. Those software's were a must have years back just because of that. I know you'd jump VirtualDub can do the same etc, etc. No it can't. For just simple cuts maybe, but not for a decent work. And, I doubt that resolve would load and export NTSC DVavi or PAL DV avi. I'm sensing problems.

Reviews are ok, but be careful, everyone uses them there is gazillion users, so there will be complaining. Complaining for whatever reason.

[nckhrs]

Guys, that NLE needs to import DVavi without problems, identify it , aspect ratios, and also export that DVavi without encoding it. There is a reason I named those above, because they just work, price is quite negligible. Those software's were a must have years back just because of that. I know you'd jump VirtualDub can do the same etc, etc. No it can't. For just simple cuts maybe, but not for a decent work. And, I doubt that resolve would load and export NTSC DVavi or PAL DV avi. I'm sensing problems.

Reviews are ok, but be careful, everyone uses them there is gazillion users, so there will be complaining. Complaining for whatever reason.

Thanks Al for shedding the light.
Let me recap to make sure I got it right.
- For DVavi workflow, only Vegas Movie Studio and Adobe Premiere are known to work well.
- DaVinci Resolve may not work for DVavi.

How about Corel VideoStudio, Hitfilm Express and Shotcut?

[JVRaines]

And, I doubt that resolve would load and export NTSC DVavi or PAL DV avi.

Resolve supports DV in a QuickTime file. Easy enough to re-wrap from AVI if one really wants to use Resolve.

[_Al_]

Does it export it without re-encoding?

[nckhrs]

And, I doubt that resolve would load and export NTSC DVavi or PAL DV avi.

Resolve supports DV in a QuickTime file. Easy enough to re-wrap from AVI if one really wants to use Resolve.

Thanks JVRaines.
Resolve looks too sophisticated for me.

Any experience with Corel VideoStudio, Hitfilm Express, or Shotcut?
Do they work for DVavi?