How to determine correct parity setting for Yadif deinterlace?

[Bencuri]

I am using yohng yadif deinterlace plugin for Sony Vegas. It asks for setting parity. How to determine if Upper or Lower is the correct setting for my videos?

[JVRaines]

Just check the Field Order in the media Properties.

[Atak_Snajpera]

Only DV uses Bottom Field so if you are working with something modern then Top Field is correct.

[pandy]

Only DV uses Bottom Field so if you are working with something modern then Top Field is correct.

Disagree - seem TFF is mostly in Europe when BFF mostly in US materials... quite visible when US advertisement (such as games) is spooled in Europe on broadcast TV - quite commonly there is incorrect field order as most of European broadcasters has preconfigured structure for TFF when material is form US and it is BFF.

[Bencuri]

Excuse me guys, maybe I should have been more precise in my question. It is not the field order that is concerned. On the setting panel of the plugin, below Field order, there is a setting: Parity. And it offers two options: Upper/Lower. In a description Parity is mentioned as setting that defines which field the plugin should interpolate. It claims that one of the fields is sharper in case of some camcorders, and this setting can affect the quality of the outcome. Never heard of this, and wonder what is the case in my Canon camcorder?

[jagabo]

There usually isn't a difference in quality between the top and bottom fields. But try each and see. In any case, Vegas' deinterlacing is pretty poor.

And, of course, BFF isn't limited to DV.

[Bencuri]

Actually it is an outer Yadif plugin, said to be better than the built in one, and indeed it is sharper.

[JVRaines]

It claims that one of the fields is sharper in case of some camcorders, and this setting can affect the quality of the outcome. Never heard of this, and wonder what is the case in my Canon camcorder?

Why don't you try it both ways and see which one you like better? I'd trust my own eyes against what some people on the internet tell me is the official way.

[jagabo]

If you use Yadif in double frame rate mode (eg, 30i to 60p, I don't know if the Vegas plugin allows this) the field order will become very important. The wrong field order will give you very jerky video whenever there is motion.

[Bencuri]

I did that, I mean tested by eyesight.

The field order was set correctly, to upper, based on the data sheet in Mediainfo. But conversion is not for double framerate here.

[Bencuri]

It is offtopic now, but there is a setting: Processing Mode as well in the plugin. You can choose Temporal & Spatial, and Temporal Only. What is this for and which one do you think should be chosen?

[Atak_Snajpera]

Only DV uses Bottom Field so if you are working with something modern then Top Field is correct.

Disagree - seem TFF is mostly in Europe when BFF mostly in US materials... quite visible when US advertisement (such as games) is spooled in Europe on broadcast TV - quite commonly there is incorrect field order as most of European broadcasters has preconfigured structure for TFF when material is form US and it is BFF.

Personally I haven't seen 1080i TV footage using BFF. All my samples recorded from US TV show TFF. Like this one for example

General
ID                                       : 1 (0x1)
Complete name                            : E:\_Video_Samples\ts\1080i.ts
Format                                   : MPEG-TS
File size                                : 54.9 MiB
Duration                                 : 1 min 14 s
Overall bit rate mode                    : Variable
Overall bit rate                         : 6 181 kb/s

Video
ID                                       : 5667 (0x1623)
Menu ID                                  : 1 (0x1)
Format                                   : AVC
Format/Info                              : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile                           : Main@L4
Format settings, CABAC                   : Yes
Format settings, RefFrames               : 4 frames
Codec ID                                 : 27
Duration                                 : 1 min 14 s
Bit rate                                 : 5 487 kb/s
Width                                    : 1 440 pixels
Height                                   : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio                     : 16:9
Frame rate                               : 29.970 (30000/1001) FPS
Standard                                 : Component
Color space                              : YUV
Chroma subsampling                       : 4:2:0
Bit depth                                : 8 bits
Scan type                                : Interlaced
Scan type, store method                  : Separated fields
Scan order                               : Top Field First
Bits/(Pixel*Frame)                       : 0.118
Stream size                              : 48.5 MiB (88%)
Color range                              : Limited
Color primaries                          : BT.709
Transfer characteristics                 : BT.709
Matrix coefficients                      : BT.709

Audio
ID                                       : 5666 (0x1622)
Menu ID                                  : 1 (0x1)
Format                                   : AC-3
Format/Info                              : Audio Coding 3
Format settings, Endianness              : Big
Codec ID                                 : 129
Duration                                 : 1 min 14 s
Bit rate mode                            : Constant
Bit rate                                 : 384 kb/s
Channel(s)                               : 6 channels
Channel positions                        : Front: L C R, Side: L R, LFE
Sampling rate                            : 48.0 kHz
Frame rate                               : 31.250 FPS (1536 SPF)
Bit depth                                : 16 bits
Compression mode                         : Lossy
Delay relative to video                  : 65 ms
Stream size                              : 3.39 MiB (6%)
Service kind                             : Complete Main

Menu
ID                                       : 32 (0x20)
Menu ID                                  : 1 (0x1)
Duration                                 : 1 min 14 s
List                                     : 5667 (0x1623) (AVC) / 5666 (0x1622) (AC-3)
Service name                             :  
Service provider                         : Generated by TSReader 2.8.46e on 2008/09/17 17:56
Service type                             : digital television

The same with NTSC DVDs and NTSC HD camcorders. All report TFF.

[poisondeathray]

I did that, I mean tested by eyesight.

The field order was set correctly, to upper, based on the data sheet in Mediainfo. But conversion is not for double framerate here.

I don't use this plugin, but it's probably because you don't have vegas settings set up correctly . You won't be able to determine "double rate" on the timeline preview within vegas, unless it's set to "50p" . It's better to keep it "25i" , and change the export settings to 50p (just render out a small loop section with motion) . This will also tell you if you have the field order set up correctly . There are 4 places where you set the field order and they should all match. 1) project settings 2) file interpretation settings 3) plugin settings if you're using yadif or some external plugin 4) export settings

It is offtopic now, but there is a setting: Processing Mode as well in the plugin. You can choose Temporal & Spatial, and Temporal Only. What is this for and which one do you think should be chosen?

I think spatial check is only for single rate. Temporal is for double. Unless you want to throw away half the data, use Temporal and export 50p. Motion will be much smoother and look like the original

[pandy]

Personally I haven't seen 1080i TV footage using BFF. All my samples recorded from US TV show TFF.
The same with NTSC DVDs and NTSC HD camcorders. All report TFF.

Have few NTSC SD with BFF, should have few HD with BFF - all MPEG-2 recorder from US, AVC is different topic - seem most of AVC materials is TFF.
Can search for HD with BFF but i need over month to access my old HDD's - sorry.

[Bencuri]

Unfortunately this project has size limitations, so 50p is not an option now. I have to keep it 50i to 25p. Also, because of the target country, I have to create a file that can be played on slow computers. I am sure in Kenya many computers will struggle with .50p

[poisondeathray]

Unfortunately this project has size limitations, so 50p is not an option now. I have to keep it 50i to 25p. Also, because of the target country, I have to create a file that can be played on slow computers. I am sure in Kenya many computers will struggle with .50p

Even Youtube supports 50p. Depends on what part of Kenya - some parts of Nairobi are very modern for example.

And that doesn't change how you set up the project. From 1 project you can export many different options, including 25p options in different dimension. If sometime in the future you need to export another option, it's all ready set up for you

But to answer the original question, just export a small loop test region. You won't be able to see the difference at 25p motion wise, but wrong field order will give you jerky motion at 50p as mentioned above

Sometimes "bad" source footage has certain fields that are better. e.g. for some reason the upper fields might be higher quality, or have some problem. ie. There might be reasons why you choose one half , over the other half.


Also, there are much higher quality deinterlacers than yadif if you venture into avisynth.

[hello_hello]

Depending on the encoder, 50p doesn't necessarily require much more bitrate than 25p. Encoding with x264 and it's CRF mode (quality based mode) I've compared deiinterlacing PAL DVDs to both 25fps and 50fps with Yadif, and also with QTGMC (Avisynth deinterlacing script). Generally QTGMC at 50fps requires less bitrate than Yadif at 25fps, probably because it naturally denoises a little and there's less deinterlacing artefacts to be encoded.
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/354092-Converting-video-frame-rates#post2225116

I've no idea what the average Kenyan computer is like, but I can't imagine 50p would be too much of a struggle if it's standard definition.

[Atak_Snajpera]

Personally I haven't seen 1080i TV footage using BFF. All my samples recorded from US TV show TFF.
The same with NTSC DVDs and NTSC HD camcorders. All report TFF.

Have few NTSC SD with BFF, should have few HD with BFF - all MPEG-2 recorder from US, AVC is different topic - seem most of AVC materials is TFF.
Can search for HD with BFF but i need over month to access my old HDD's - sorry.

Do you still use MPEG-2 in states??? In Europe this standard is dead. Everything in EU is encoded in MPEG-4/AVC. Even SD content.

[pandy]

Do you still use MPEG-2 in states??? In Europe this standard is dead. Everything in EU is encoded in MPEG-4/AVC. Even SD content.

Well, this is not entirely correct - Western Europe still use MPEG-2 for DVB-T as it was deployed years before H.264 - H.264 is mostly HD codec, some European countries (Poland for example) was so delayed with introducing DVB-T that H.264 was natural selection for SD and HD codec.

Time when Western Europe started transition from analog broadcast to digital was time where same process was started in USA however USA decided to go for 8-VSB digital modulation but different than in Europe where only SD was aired, in USA both SD and HD transmission was airborne - due same reason as in Europe MPEG-2 was only used video codec (so 1080i need to fit with at least audio track and some metadata plus ATSC PSI/SI within 19.3904Mbps - very challenging task in first half of 2000's).
I should have few ATSC transmitted HD MPEG-2 movies (almost sure that i have Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within from ATSC source).

btw, I live in PL - was involved in some US projects and outcome of this i have some materials from US market (but they are quite old - 2006 - 2009), have also some newer materials but they are mostly SD.

[Bencuri]

Depending on the encoder, 50p doesn't necessarily require much more bitrate than 25p. Encoding with x264 and it's CRF mode (quality based mode) I've compared deiinterlacing PAL DVDs to both 25fps and 50fps with Yadif, and also with QTGMC (Avisynth deinterlacing script). Generally QTGMC at 50fps requires less bitrate than Yadif at 25fps, probably because it naturally denoises a little and there's less deinterlacing artefacts to be encoded.
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/354092-Converting-video-frame-rates#post2225116

I've no idea what the average Kenyan computer is like, but I can't imagine 50p would be too much of a struggle if it's standard definition.

Yeah, I agree 50p SD might not be a problem, but the problem comes from the nature of the project and the time available. We want to distribute a guitar tutorial video. But when we recorded it, the guitarist was moving too much. If I leave the footage in FullHD, it is somewhat acceptable, but downgraded to DVD quality, it becomes very difficult to see clearly what he is doing because his constant movements. So we decided to stick to the higher definition for clearer image. Secondly, I have to release the media until the end od next week, so now I must stick to the plugins that I can handle. I have to leave going into QTGMC for later, because I have no experience at all with it.

We could re-record the whole thing of course, but the guy who is recorded won't listen at all, and will move much again. So this option would not help. The only way to go is leaving things in FullHD. If I use the build in deinterlace of Vegas, the movements become very blurry, this Yadif plugin helps a bit at least.

[Bencuri]

Unfortunately this project has size limitations, so 50p is not an option now. I have to keep it 50i to 25p. Also, because of the target country, I have to create a file that can be played on slow computers. I am sure in Kenya many computers will struggle with .50p

Even Youtube supports 50p. Depends on what part of Kenya - some parts of Nairobi are very modern for example.

And that doesn't change how you set up the project. From 1 project you can export many different options, including 25p options in different dimension. If sometime in the future you need to export another option, it's all ready set up for you

But to answer the original question, just export a small loop test region. You won't be able to see the difference at 25p motion wise, but wrong field order will give you jerky motion at 50p as mentioned above

Sometimes "bad" source footage has certain fields that are better. e.g. for some reason the upper fields might be higher quality, or have some problem. ie. There might be reasons why you choose one half , over the other half.


Also, there are much higher quality deinterlacers than yadif if you venture into avisynth.

You mean it makes a difference on exporting if I choose the project settings to be 50p? So I choose 50p progressive as project property, and exporting 25p? Or it only matter if the export is 50p as well?


If you deinterlace with avisynth, do you do it before loading the video to Vegas, or you can add the deinterlace process in the middle of editing, like an outer script? For example, adding it as a media FX?

[poisondeathray]

You mean it makes a difference on exporting if I choose the project settings to be 50p? So I choose 50p progressive as project property, and exporting 25p? Or it only matter if the export is 50p as well?

If you have "25i" assets, you keep the project settings the same. You're only supposed to change the export settings for different exports.

Earlier what I was saying is you can't "see" in the preview, because if you had it set to "25i" (or 50i I forget what Vegas calls it, but they are the same thing) , you'd only be seeing half the frames

If you deinterlace with avisynth, do you do it before loading the video to Vegas, or you can add the deinterlace process in the middle of editing, like an outer script? For example, adding it as a media FX?

You can't really add something like QTGMC or most avisynth deinterlacers as a media FX

Generally after, but it depends on the project details on which way might choose to go

eg. If you have lots of cutting and excess footage, it might not make sense to process everything beforehand because you're just going to discard it. Huge waste of time

eg. If you are compositing, have overlays or some types of effects - it's looks better when performed on progressive footage, than trying to deinterlace after. Even the "better" deinterlacers can mess up those things.

eg. If some of your projects were meant do be interlaced (e.g. DVD) it might make sense to keep it interlaced instead of having to deinterlace and re-interlaced. "Doing the least damage" is usually the better way to go for most things

[Bencuri]

Well, actually I have no effects added to the video events, but there are transitions set. If they are not a problem, it might worth a try to deinterlace on export. But how do you do it? With fameserver? Or should I export to a particular video format, and feed that to avisynth?


I don't want to keep this interlaced, because originally I wanted it to be progressive, I just forgot to set it in the menu of the camcorder before recording.

[poisondeathray]

Transitions won't be a problem. Yes, either frameserver or intermediate file are the choices . Typically the intermediate would be a lossless intermediate, which are large in filesize. But some people use "near" lossless intermediates, because they can be "good enough" in most situations

You could do some small tests before committing or trying to figure out a new workflow. eg. Maybe your current workflow is "good enough" for this particular project.