I am starting the process of digitally converting some Hi8 home video. Based upon the recommendations of many on this forum, I have decided to compare lossless vs DV AVI conversion. I am interested in the forum's opinion of my initial efforts. My analog Hi8 camcorder is a Sony CCD-TRV32. For the lossless conversion I am running a composite cable from my Hi8 (no S-video on this unit) to a Hauppauge USB-Live 2 and capturing using VirtualDub. I am using the uncompressed RGB/YCbCr setting under video compression in VirtualDub. (Note: Since my original post I have also included a HuffyYUV version. I am keeping the uncompressed version for anyone wanting to make a comparison). I have not yet purchased a TBC. For the DV AVI conversion I have two set ups. The first uses a Canopus ADVC100 and the second is using a Sony MiniDV camcorder (DCR-TRV38) in pass through mode. Again, I used Virtual Dub for the capture software. The following is a sample of each conversion using direct stream copy in VirtualDub:
Uncompressed Capture Using Hauppauge USB-Live 2:
https://forum.videohelp.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=35701&stc=1&d=1455567475
Lossless HuffyYUV Capture Using Hauppauge USB-Live 2:
https://forum.videohelp.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=35702&stc=1&d=1455567729
DV-AVI Capture using Canopus ADVC100:
https://forum.videohelp.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=35703&stc=1&d=1455567810
DV-AVI Capture using Sony MiniDV pass through:
https://forum.videohelp.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=35704&stc=1&d=1455567907
I'll be honest, the Sony pass through conversion looks the most pleasing to my eye. The Canopus colors are a bit too oversaturated for my taste. I am most disappointed by the lossless capture. The interlacing (combing?) artifacts are much more visible to me with this conversion. Would adding a TBC improve on this? None of the conversions look as good as the original Hi8 when viewed on my 1080p 60" plasma TV. Any and all feedback would be most appreciated.
(Note: The above has been edited since my original posting based upon member's recommendations. Previous internet links to video clips have been replaced with uploaded files. Clips have been significantly shortened and audio has been removed)
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Last edited by VideoDoc; 16th Feb 2016 at 17:09.
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VideoDoc, please do not double post. I've deleted the duplicate. In the future if you want to move a topic to another forum, PM a Mod.
Moderator redwudz -
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Never, ever post uncompressed video when you're asking people to download stuff. Half a gigabyte is quite a commitment. We like lossless, not uncompressed. We also don't need audio when we're not being asked to compare sound quality/sync. (Though actually, you should set the two DV devices to use 16-bit instead of 12-bit.) A lossless, audio-less version of your first sample is 277MB instead of 517MB. You may also get more downloads if you attach clips to the forum rather than using external links, and they will be preserved for future readers instead of being dead-ends.
I'm interested regardless though, so thank you for the samples! I see this is a followup to Requesting Hi8 to PC Capture Recommendations for Windows 10.
This is a bad idea for Hi8; much more so than it is for VHS. And especially because you're using the USB-Live2. The Conexant Polaris chip (or range of chips) used in that and the Diamond VC500 does Y/C separation from composite very poorly.
Recommendations for those two devices are made based on feeding line-TBC'd video into the S-Video input.
I am most disappointed by the lossless capture. The interlacing (combing?) artifacts are much more visible to me with this conversion. Would adding a TBC improve on this?
What you want is line TBC, and the Sony MiniDV is doing that. The ADVC100 isn't, but its video decoder is coping with the errors better than the USB-Live2. If you buy an external TBC like the AVT-8710, you'll be disappointed comparing its correction abilities to the Sony's. You could buy a DVD recorder known to do line correction, but it may make more sense to buy a Hi8 or Digital8 camcorder that includes TBC and S-Video output.
Other notes:
- ADVC100 has the best levels. The very top peaks are a little clipped, but I don't think there's much to be gained from here. DCR-TRV38 clips notably.
- ADVC100 has an ugly kind of yellow cast compared to the others.
- ADVC100 has some sort of diagonal interference (due to composite?).
- ADVC100 skips the frame after frame 250 (drop with no duplicate to replace it).
- The black level on the DCR-TRV38 is too high. (Probably no setting for this; seems to be just what Sony camcorders do when fed a signal containing 7.5 IRE pedestal.)
- You should lower the Contrast control of the USB-Live2 via Video -> Levels.
Last edited by Brad; 14th Feb 2016 at 14:27. Reason: Add screenshots
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I'm very sorry for breaking all the forum rules. I guess I'm not getting off to a very good start here. I rarely post on forums. Still, I appreciate your input. Was beginning to wonder why I was getting no responses.
I chose to go with the uncompressed video because I have not been able to get the lossless codecs (like HuffyYUV) working on my Windows 10 system yet. I thought about trying to eliminate the audio but I am not familiar enough yet with VirtualDub to do that. I also did not want to alter the file in any way that might make comparisons invalid. I don't know how to attach video clips. The only option I see is the "Insert Video" button which asks for a URL link. I assumed the "upload image" button was for still pictures only. Will it work for video? Not sure what to do about the composite cable issue. There is no S-Video out on my Hi8. I really don't want to buy another Hi8 unit. Would a composite to S-Video cable converter make any difference? I am assuming the answer is no. Would a different USB stick work better for composite cable? I can still return the USB-Live 2. With regards to TBC, I'm glad you mentioned the AVT-8710 because I was thinking about buying that unit. If I did go the Digital8 route with TBC and S-Video, which ones would you recommend? Again, you feedback is most appreciated. You have already saved me many hours of wasted time and money. -
have you tried installing the UT codec? it's still being updated and should run on w10. you may have to run the installer as admin.
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"a lot of people are better dead" - prisoner KSC2-303 -
The things I personally mentioned weren't rules, just advice. Cross-posting is a no-no though.
I don't know how to attach video clips.
Would a composite to S-Video cable converter make any difference?
Would a different USB stick work better for composite cable?
If I did go the Digital8 route with TBC and S-Video, which ones would you recommend?
I added to my previous post since your reply. -
No, not familiar with that one. Thanks for the recommendation. Getting software info for Windows 10 has proved to be very difficult.
This does bring up an important question that I have wanted to put to the group and that is the issue of long-term archiving. If I am using a specialty lossless compression codec, am I not setting myself up for problems regarding future operating system and software compatibility? My problem with HuffyYUV and Windows 10 is a perfect example. Although the UT codec works on Windows 10, the more important question is, will it work on Windows 15? Although uncompressed lossless video consumes an incredible amount of space, is it more likely that I will be able to read and edit it 10-20 years from now? -
Again, thank you very much for your assistance. I do have one additional question, if I may. In one thread I recently read (http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/video-capture/4144-best-camera-video8.html), lordsmurf comments that an external TBC is still necessary even when using a Hi8/Digital8 with TBC. What are your thoughts about this?
Last edited by VideoDoc; 14th Feb 2016 at 16:15.
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A Hi8 camcorder's TBC alone may be insufficient to prevent the USB-Live2 from dropping frames at the start of recordings. If you have lots of little short segments on your tapes where the person hit Pause/Stop+Rec, this may prove troublesome to you. Otherwise, I can't think of a common scenario where the lack of guaranteed vertical sync would be a problem with Hi8 playback.
There are entire threads devoted to this topic alone. I related my current opinion during a detour in this capture thread. Yes, uncompressed is more future-proof.
Terminology note: uncompressed is uncompressed, lossless is lossessly-compressed. Combining the two terms is meaningless in this context. -
Timebase correction is not applicable to Digital8 if you're doing a digital transfer via FireWire, as you should be.
I have not yet run across a Hi8 recording that required a full-frame synchronizer using my Sony EV-S3000 deck and the ADVC110 converter. The EV-S3000 TBC and dropout compensator do a great job on Hi8 and Video8 tapes. It also gives me proper black levels, unlike Sony D8 camcorders. -
I meant when Digital8 is used with S-Video out
I have not yet run across a Hi8 recording that required a full-frame synchronizer using my Sony EV-S3000 deck and the ADVC110 converter. The EV-S3000 TBC and dropout compensator do a great job on Hi8 and Video8 tapes. It also gives me proper black levels, unlike Sony D8 camcorders -
Originally Posted by vaporeon800
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Yes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lossy_compression
Does it have to be Amazon Marketplace? Recent eBay prices for that model, "tested & working" with batteries and power cord, are as low as $58 shipped. -
The Happuage cap has dot crawl artifacts. The tape needs to be played on a camcorder with s-video output instead of composite. It also has flagging at the top of the frame and the most horizontal time base jitter. You'll need a line TBC to fix that. It's brights are blown out (>255) but you might be able to fix that with it's proc amp controls.
The ADVC cap has some herringbone noise.
The D8 cap might have lost a little detail and noise during capture.
If you plan on filtering the videos I wouldn't worry about differences in brightness, contrast, and saturation. They can all be adjusted to pretty much the same appearance. Aside from blown out brights in the Hauppauge cap which you might be able to fix with the proc amp controls during capture.
After some processing:
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Proc amp = processing amplifier, which is the name of a piece of a equipment used to do basic adjustments of levels and color. Capture devices & software borrowed the term for their own controls that do the same adjustments.
The easiest way in VirtualDub is via Video -> Levels, as mentioned earlier. Some capture devices don't allow access this way, but yours should. Lower the Contrast to prevent bright spots from washing out into pure white. -
I know you can get some great deals off e-bay, but I personally have been burned too many times. If I have a choice, I only buy online from Amazon or a vendor that is "fulfilled by Amazon" Love them or hate them, you have to admit that Amazon understands customer service. The entire buy, ship and return process is almost flawless. This is particularly true for used items. As long as you follow their guidelines, almost everything can be returned without any problem. My account is usually credited the same day I drop it off at the UPS center. I have never had a bad purchase experience with Amazon and, for that, they have my loyalty. I can't say the same for e-bay.
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[QUOTE=vaporeon800;2432804]Proc amp = processing amplifier, which is the name of a piece of a equipment used to do basic adjustments of levels and color. Capture devices & software borrowed the term for their own controls that do the same adjustments.
Is the "proc amp" located in the Hauppauge USB-Live 2 or in my Hi8 camcorder? -
It's part of the driver for the USB Live 2. Exactly how you get at it varies depending on the particular device. But you'll find it somewhere in VIrtualDub's menus. They typically look something like:
It may not have all those settings and some of them may be disabled (unavailable). -
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I am interested in reposting my original video samples with the suggestions you made. Hopefully, someone else might find them useful and I want to make it easier for everyone looking at this thread. I plan on attaching clips as you suggested. Can I just go back and edit my original post? I figured out how to remove the audio. I was thinking about shortening their length. How long a clip do you suggest? Again, I appreciate everyone's suggestions. I am constantly amazed by the intelligence and generosity of people on some of these internet forums. It gives one hope for humanity.
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Aww.
You should be able to edit and attach them to your original post. Did you get a lossless codec working?
Usually I would say clips longer than 10 seconds are overkill, but in this case the length proved interesting as it included that skipped frame in the ADVC100 capture. (Some people like to claim that DV capture doesn't drop frames.) If you do shorten them, I would suggest trimming from the start rather than the end. The scene changeover makes a useful sync point. -
Actually I did! I managed to get HuffyYUV working on my 64 bit Windows 10 system. I installed the 64 bit version of both VirtualDub AND HuffyYUV and it worked. BTW, the instructions I found on the internet for getting the 32 bit versions working for 64 bit Windows 7 did not work for me on Windows 10. Also, the only place I could find the 64 bit version of HuffyYUV was here. Thank you lordsmurf! I was actually going to post this info on my previous thread. If I do that now is it considered cross-posting?
Usually I would say clips longer than 10 seconds are overkill, but in this case the length proved interesting as it included that skipped frame in the ADVC100 capture. (Some people like to claim that DV capture doesn't drop frames.) If you do shorten them, I would suggest trimming from the start rather than the end. The scene changeover makes a useful sync point. -
I have edited my original post per your recommendations. I added the HuffyYUV version but decided to retain an uncompressed one for academic reasons. Someone might want to make a comparison. Clips have been reduced to approximately 10 seconds and audio has been removed. I hope I didn't make any mistakes in the process.
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Most of us on 64-bit systems use 32-bit VirtualDub with 32-bit codecs and 32-bit Avisynth.
If you're not duplicating posts, it shouldn't be. -
by the way, I have a TRV32 and it's actually video 8, not Hi8. It unfortunately won't record to tape anymore as it got amazing 3ccd like color. It looks very similar to the TRV75 which is Hi8 and does have S-video with stereo playback capability. (TRV32 recorded in dual mono) But the ccd chip in the 75 doesn't get as vivid of color as the 32.
Having a hi8 deck with an s-video output is best for transferring video8 or Hi8 tapes. Some of the later Hi8 models not only didn't record in stereo, they came with one audio cable so the audio would only play on either the left or right track. (unless you purchased a separate y cable) Some of the mono only Hi8 also did not play back audio the best or at the highest possible amplitude. For example, audio from the TRV318 is dimmed compared to the TR818 (which had lousy color pickup during recording).
Some but not all Digital 8 camcorders do play the video8/Hi8 tapes. I don't know if there's a consensus on whether video 8/Hi8 playback is better or not in an actual Hi8 or backward compatible Digital 8 camcorder. But if you do seek out a Hi8, make sure it has stereo recording and outputs -
Yes, I stand corrected. The TRV32 is Video8, not Hi8. I appreciate you bringing this to my attention. I did recently purchase a Sony Hi8 CCD-TRV608 for its S-video out and line TBC. It is only a mono audio out, but I don't need stereo because all of my source tapes are in mono. I only plan to use it for playback, not to record. I am using a Y-splitter to get sound to both left and right tracks and this seems to be working well.
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