Theories on why audio stops capturing during DV pass-thru capture?

[brassplyer]

Capturing from a VCR through a Sony Digital8 camcorder via Firewire to a DV file. Audio frequently quits capturing after around 20 mins or so. Doesn't seem to matter what app I use for capture - WinDV, Pinnacle Studio. I can hear the audio through the camera, there's no noticeable issue when it happens, no indication of dropped frames - for whatever reason the audio just stops being recorded. When viewing the video file in Soundforge you can see where the waveform just stops. At the point where the audio drops out, there's a couple of seconds of loud static, then nothing.

It did this when I was using the Firewire input from an Audigy PlatinumEX, it still does it using a PCI Firewire card.

Environment is XP SP3, 4gigs ram, way more than enough system horsepower to facilitate DV capture.

Any ideas as to why this keeps happening?

Thanks.

[Bjs]

Sounds like a file size max issue ... what format is the capture drive

[brassplyer]

Sounds like a file size max issue ... what format is the capture drive

Nah, it's NTFS. The video continues to capture, the audio doesn't.

[Cornucopia]

Just because it can be heard on the cam (analog output) doesn't mean it is successfully & continuously being sent out the DV port (digital stream output).
It sounds like there is a circuitry problem: either the cam or the dv capture port/card. Or possibly the cable.

I'm curious, can this be duplicated to give a similar breakdown AT ROUGHLY THE SAME POINT IN TIME with multiple captures of the same program? With different programs?

If so, that begins to sound more like an overheating issue. Try someone else's capture station, and someone else's dv cam, and even (if they'll let you) someone else's dv tapes in your setup. Do these each separately to isolate the offending link in the chain.

<edit>a 2nd reading made it clearer that you have used 2 dv cap cards. That points more directly to the cam (what I was guessing anyway).

Scott

[aedipuss]

i'd try a different vcr and see if the same thing happens.

[Mr Chris]

Capturing from a VCR through a Sony Digital8 camcorder via Firewire to a DV file. Audio frequently quits capturing after around 20 mins or so.

You're using your camcorder as a pass-through, but what happens if you record your VCR output to Digital8 tape (if possible) instead? Does the audio still cut out?

[brassplyer]

Capturing from a VCR through a Sony Digital8 camcorder via Firewire to a DV file. Audio frequently quits capturing after around 20 mins or so.

You're using your camcorder as a pass-through, but what happens if you record your VCR output to Digital8 tape (if possible) instead? Does the audio still cut out?

Yup.

[brassplyer]

i'd try a different vcr and see if the same thing happens.

Different VCR's, three different Digital8 Cams (All Sony but two diff models), different firewire cables.

[aedipuss]

if you start the capture after the bad spot is audio captured?

[brassplyer]

if you start the capture after the bad spot is audio captured?

It's not a bad spot per se as in a bad spot on the VHS tape, if I start the video a bit before the same place where the sound quits, that sound captures fine. It's apparently something that happens when the capture has gone on for a while. Doesn't seem to matter how good the source tape is. It can be a brand new, pristine tape and it still does it. If I limit the capture segments to say 10 or 15 mins the problem never manifests itself, however that's a huge pain if I want to make a long capture.

I could capture the audio separately out of the headphone jack onto a different drive but I'd rather not have to do that. I'm guessing some dysfunctionality within XP where it bobbles the IEEE1394 signal after a certain amount of time.

[aedipuss]

it's not an XP os problem, vhs tapes have been captured successfully for many years with it. i still keep one XP machine to run capture equipment that doesn't have any newer drivers and have never had a capture interrupted of any length. it may be a problem with your system there where some program is interrupting the stream. DV capture is a file transfer with no error correction so it's not fault tolerant.

[Mr Chris]

Capturing from a VCR through a Sony Digital8 camcorder via Firewire to a DV file. Audio frequently quits capturing after around 20 mins or so.

You're using your camcorder as a pass-through, but what happens if you record your VCR output to Digital8 tape (if possible) instead? Does the audio still cut out?

Yup.

Hold on a second - are we understanding each other correctly here? If you record from VCR to Digital8 tape, and then watch back the Digital8 recording on a TV, does the audio cut out at any point?

[Cornucopia]

Is that VHS-HiFi audio? Maybe it's tracking drift (which could have been on the original record deck, thus it is baked into the tape).

Again, we need more info:
Have you tried multiple passes? (and if so, do they always stop at the same point?)
Have you tried other tapes? Brand new/clean/fresh tapes?
Have you tried other VCRs?
Have you tried other cams/converters/capture methods?
Have you tried other PCs?
Have you tried other cabling?

As aedipuss says, it's not XP in general (though it could be something wrong in your system in particular). And, as you say, it isn't the filesystem, since it's NTFS. That rules out the main possibilities WRT your receiving end and points to your source end as being the troublesome area.

Scott

[brassplyer]

Capturing from a VCR through a Sony Digital8 camcorder via Firewire to a DV file. Audio frequently quits capturing after around 20 mins or so.

You're using your camcorder as a pass-through, but what happens if you record your VCR output to Digital8 tape (if possible) instead? Does the audio still cut out?

Yup.

Hold on a second - are we understanding each other correctly here? If you record from VCR to Digital8 tape, and then watch back the Digital8 recording on a TV, does the audio cut out at any point?

Just as with pass-through it does it inconsistently. Might do it, might not. If it does it there's no telling how long it will capture before the audio cuts out.

[brassplyer]

Is that VHS-HiFi audio?

No.

Have you tried multiple passes? (and if so, do they always stop at the same point?)

Yes. No.

Have you tried other tapes? Brand new/clean/fresh tapes?

Yes.

Have you tried other VCRs?

Yes.

Have you tried other cams/converters/capture methods?

I have three Digital8 cams, two different models. I assume the passthru circuitry is the same, though I could be wrong. Once upon a time I had a Pinnacle DC10 that captured to mjpeg but never experienced the issue with that. My understanding is DV avi is superior.

Have you tried other PCs?

I have, but it's been a long time. I actually don't have a specific recollection if it happened on another machine, it's been several years. Previous machines were less powerful. The one before this was a P4, this is a Core2 Quad. As we speak I'm trying to get it to work on my machine with Win7 Home premium for the purpose of seeing if it happens there, which is going to generate another thread.

Have you tried other cabling?

I've used more than one Firewire cable.

[Mr Chris]

Capturing from a VCR through a Sony Digital8 camcorder via Firewire to a DV file. Audio frequently quits capturing after around 20 mins or so.

You're using your camcorder as a pass-through, but what happens if you record your VCR output to Digital8 tape (if possible) instead? Does the audio still cut out?

Yup.

Hold on a second - are we understanding each other correctly here? If you record from VCR to Digital8 tape, and then watch back the Digital8 recording on a TV, does the audio cut out at any point?

Just as with pass-through it does it inconsistently. Might do it, might not. If it does it there's no telling how long it will capture before the audio cuts out.

Well if that's the case, then logically we can at least rule out the PC and the Firewire cable, as the problem seems to manifest itself before it hits either of those. So that leaves (1) the VCR, (2) the camcorder, or (3) the cables between those two as the possible culprits. Does that make sense? Or have I misunderstood something?

Next step... Hook up your VCR directly to a TV, settle down and watch tape for a while. Does the audio cut out at all? If so, then we've eliminated the camcorder from the equation. If not, we can probably rule out the VCR.

[brassplyer]

[QUOTE=Mr Chris;2424870][QUOTE=brassplyer;2424784]

Well if that's the case, then logically we can at least rule out the PC and the Firewire cable, as the problem seems to manifest itself before it hits either of those. So that leaves (1) the VCR, (2) the camcorder, or (3) the cables between those two as the possible culprits. Does that make sense? Or have I misunderstood something?

Next step... Hook up your VCR directly to a TV, settle down and watch tape for a while. Does the audio cut out at all? If so, then we've eliminated the camcorder from the equation. If not, we can probably rule out the VCR.

I've seen it do this when the audio was clearly audible through the camera speaker so I know the audio was coming out of the VCR. And it's not just a short dropout, the audio just quits, at the point where it quits there's a second or so of loud white noise static. There's nothing in the video portion that indicates there's a problem - no visible stutter or glitch. Which makes me think some element of XP is choking for some reason. The other element is it's always on a longer capture. I don't think I've ever seen it happen on 5 - 10 min captures. Then again the other day I captured a 45 min segment without issue.

If I can get the setup to work through Win7 I'll test it there.

[The_Doman]

If you not already have done so, try the Scenelayzer Live program?

Also possible it helps if you set it to capture in segments?

[RonHH]

brassplyer...

Have you figured this out yet? I have a very similar thing going on. I am running 8mm tape through my analog Sony cam, RCA-linked to a Sony DV Cam for passthrough (no DV tape in the camera), Firewire linked to my laptop (Win7, 253 GHz, 8GB RAM).

The video comes through beautifully. No frame drops are reported, and the video plays smoothly. The tapes are in great shape, both video and audio. The audio can be heard during the capture process coming through the analog camcorder speaker with absolutely no dropouts or change in quality.

When I play the DV-AVI files back I can have audio fades and total dropouts almost anywhere. Sometimes they are for a minute or two, sometimes it can be lost for an hour of tape. Unlike you, the dropouts can occur an hour into the capture or 5 minutes into it. It doesn't seem to be related to overheating or any getting behind of the capture. If it bounces back during the capture, the audio will be fine and there is no subsequent audio/video sync issue.

Here's the strange part. If I kill off the capture and go back to just before the point that the audio is lost and begin anew, the audio dropout will occur at exactly the same point as it first did. This strongly suggests a tape or tracking problem rather than a connection/wire/software problem. I might be capturing a tape for an hour and have the dropout occur and then have it run on for an hour, turn the system off at the end, rewind the tape to 30 seconds before the dropout occurred, start again and 30 seconds later the dropout reoccurs. So it doesn't appear to be a duration of capture problem. As I say, the audio coming out of the analog cam is fine, so I wouldn't think it is a head tracking problem.

My next steps:

1. Confirm RCA analog audio output is working by playing a section where I know a dropout will occur through my tv monitor and seeing if it happens there.

2. Installing a DV tape in the passthrough camera, disconnecting from the laptop and seeing if a DV capture on tape still produces the dropout.

This has been VERY discouraging since I am 24 tapes into my transferring project and just noticed this going on to a somewhat significant extent...some tapes are fine, about 30% have small to long sections of audio dropout. Can anyone offer any ideas??

[brassplyer]

brassplyer...

Have you figured this out yet? I have a very similar thing going on. I am running 8mm tape through my analog Sony cam, RCA-linked to a Sony DV Cam for passthrough (no DV tape in the camera), Firewire linked to my laptop (Win7, 253 GHz, 8GB RAM).

I was going to make an effort to capture on a Win7 machine as opposed to the XP machine to see if it makes a difference but ran into some issues with capturing on the Win7 machine and haven't revisited it so far. What I'll probably do is just capture audio separate from the video.

Here's what might help in your case - many of the Sony Digital8 cameras will play analog tapes. I have a TRV240 and 730 and they both do. If yours does you'll be better off playing the analog tape in the digital camera - it actually plays it better than an analog camera. I don't know enough about the tech to tell you why but I know that with a side by side comparison of the same video played back, the video from the digital cam will look better.

However you want to be conscientious about keeping the heads clean. It's a little tricky getting to the heads on the small camcorder transport - I put a piece of microfiber cloth on the end of a piece of a tongue depressor that's been cut flat across at an angle and put some acetone on the cloth and rotate the drum with another tongue depressor or Q-tip. Make sure the head passes under the cloth rather than moving the cloth and don't use any up and down motion, and don't use much pressure - you don't want to damage the heads.

[RonHH]

I've read about the Digital8 option, but haven't tried it. My analog cam predates the Sony Digital8 era. The advantage I thought I had was that I still have and am using the cam that the tapes were originally recorded on. I've heard that head alignment is best if you can use the original camera for playback. I don't own a Digital8 (yet!)

I went back and tried a few things last night...

Played the tape with the audio dropout section directly from the analog camera to the tv monitor...worked perfectly.
Then I went back to my original passthrough-capture setup and rerecorded the dropout segment again. This time the audio was fine...even though three times previously the audio dropped in exactly the same place. Very odd, this has all the elements of both a random event (connector, wire) and of a reproducible event (bad spot in the tape) all at the same time. Bizzaro World!

I then went back and stepped through the first 17 of 24 2-hour tapes (skipped along, sampling every 30 seconds or so) I have transferred so far (and not yet viewed as avi's). Four tapes had major audio dropouts that will require recapture of the entire tape. The original captures were done on different days, the dropouts could range from a few minutes to a half hour or more. They could be at the very beginning of the tape, at the very end, or anywhere in between. Capture session duration seemed to play no role in it. Sometimes the sound would drop out completely, other times it would fade over a few seconds to a very low, indistinguishable, background level. When it returned (if not at the end of the tape), it could return suddenly or ramp back up over a few seconds to a minute to normal. There has never been any audio/video sync issues that you commonly hear about, either before or after these dropouts.

Two other of the captures had minor, reduced sound dropouts of a minute or less that I can live with. The other 11 tapes were totally fine. Of course I could have missed minor dropouts of less than 30 seconds anywhere during my sampling routine. I have another 15 or so tapes to go, plus the 4 rerecords.

This is a pain in the ass from a time wasting perspective, so anything I can do to up my odds of a good capture, I'm willing to try.

Tell me more about this idea of a separate audio capture. Right now I am just dumping these huge files to a clean, 4 TB external hard drive. At some point I will run them through an editing software (Pinnacle Studio??? What do you or everyone else recommend?), break them into individual clips, rearrange them into viewable segments, title, fade, overdub, chapter, yadda yadda yadda, compress as MPEGs and burn to DVDs. What is the best process for separately capturing audio and then recombining it with the video? And, how do you get it in sync? I am a total novice in this area, so any advice you can offer here would be MUCH appreciated!

Thanks a ton! It is great to find someone going through this same ordeal.
RonH

[RonHH]

I just bought a DCR-TRV330 through Ebay. We'll see if this method offers both a greater degree of reliability and even better video resolution. All I know is that when I am done here, I'll be able to offer up any number of equipment packages for resale...from dongles and software, to old analogs, pass-through DVs, an outdated Win7 machine with 1394 port, and now Digital8. My original goal was to get rid of stuff (tapes, cams, bags, cables)...not acquire more of it!

[brassplyer]

I've read about the Digital8 option, but haven't tried it. My analog cam predates the Sony Digital8 era. The advantage I thought I had was that I still have and am using the cam that the tapes were originally recorded on. I've heard that head alignment is best if you can use the original camera for playback.

I find that the video looks better on the Digital8 even vs the original analog camera.

I don't own a Digital8 (yet!)

Okay, when you said you were using a Sony DV cam I thought that's what you were referring to. You mean a MiniDV?

As I understand it, the Digital8 is the same system as the MiniDV just using a bigger tape.

[brassplyer]

I just bought a DCR-TRV330 through Ebay.

The Digital8 cameras can take pretty decent video. This was shot on a TRV730. It's been deinterlaced to 60fps progressive and had some noise reduction applied but it came out of that camera. This was a test of upconverting to HD dimensions.

https://youtu.be/J3BX0HbQVdk

[RonHH]

Yes, the passthrough camera I am/was using is a Sony miniDV. The Digital8 camera I will be trying next, for the recaptures that have bad sound, won't arrive until next Wednesday. In the meantime, I am going to busy myself with some captures off even older VHS tapes through the miniDV and see if the sound dropouts occur there as well.

Once I reccapture using the Digital8, I will do a head to head comparison of video from that and the analog/miniDV via the RCA connection and see if I can sense better video quality. If so, I plan on redoing all the tapes I've made so far...good sound or not.

I'll let you know what I think seems to provide the best quality.

Looking ahead...do you have a preference for editing software? Once I get these avi files all squared away, I need to start refining them into something someone will actually want to sit down and watch.

[brassplyer]

Looking ahead...do you have a preference for editing software? Once I get these avi files all squared away, I need to start refining them into something someone will actually want to sit down and watch.

I use an older version of Sony Vegas. I think Vegas gets pretty universally good reviews, at least the last I checked. My first experience was with Pinnacle Studio and found it to be buggy and prone to problems - tech support useless. I think they were under instructions to never tell anyone anything but "Reinstall Pinnacle".

Things may be different with more recent releases of Pinnacle but I'm done with the Pinnacle Universe. The only thing I use it for now is capture. Seems to work fine for that.

I use Sony Vegas Pro 9 which is an older version I found on ebay. However, be careful about ebay purchases. The first one I got on ebay was ver. 8. Got it as a digital download and used it for several years before I found out it was pirated. I found out when I tried to update it to a revision of ver. 8 but the Sony site where I went to get the download wouldn't let me. Apparently what I have is a cracked demo version of 8. It put up a registration screen, the whole bit, said it was contacting Sony but apparently it was just an internal loop. Worked fine, there were just some features that you needed the update for.

I'll never get anything but hard disc copies again. Someone might be able to crack a demo for digital download but they're not going to go through the expense of creating pirated factory-pressed discs. In fact I think the places that press software discs have safeguards in place to ensure they're not creating bootlegs.

[brassplyer]

Looking ahead...do you have a preference for editing software?

Also - if you want to do cleanup beyond, trimming, adding titles, transitions etc. - do more advanced things like deinterlacing, noise reduction, I'd recommend exploring the universe of VirtualDub and Avisynth which can be used in concert with an editing program. Somewhat more of a learning curve than a GUI-based editing app like Vegas but they let you do a lot with your video through various filters and scripts. Be forewarned that particularly with Avisynth it can be an exercise in hair-pulling getting it set up - for one filter you often have to hunt down several other elements and sometimes they can be hard to track down and get the right versions but it can do a lot of things. Lots of documentation available here on Videohelp.

And of course you need an authoring app to create your discs but I believe everything from Vegas 9 and later comes with DVD Architect Pro included.