can you cut video to a precise specific length?

[efc1978]

It is 4% faster if it was NTSC source converted to PAL.

As for your problem, if you want to keep it as lossless as posible, you'll need to use a smart-render editor like VideoRedu. Vegas can also smart render mpeg-2 sources, so that is another option for you.

Are you referring to the black frames?, isn't separating video from audio from the original DVD .VOB's using PGCDemux to create video .m2v's lossless?
Thanks

[efc1978]

There are a number of different ways PAL audio is handled depending on the acquisition method. Earlier, I suggested if you don't see a problem, don't worry about it. This stuff is useful, often necessary to know -- but at times folks around here, myself included can be "too" helpful -- which can be confusing.

I never think people are "too helpful"!

[racer-x]

It is 4% faster if it was NTSC source converted to PAL.

As for your problem, if you want to keep it as lossless as posible, you'll need to use a smart-render editor like VideoRedu. Vegas can also smart render mpeg-2 sources, so that is another option for you.

Are you referring to the black frames?, isn't separating video from audio from the original DVD .VOB's using PGCDemux to create video .m2v's lossless?
Thanks

There are a number of ways to demux and re-mux elemental video and audio streams. You need to join source video with black frames in a lossless manor. That is your dilemma. How to align video and black frames with new audio and export elemental streams in a lossless manor. It can certainly be done with proper s/w and know how.............

[manono]

Really I don't understand why I have read so many times ALL PAL stuff is 4% fast....., it's not.

It is, most of the time. Maybe you just have crappy DVDs.

There are two main ways to convert film (24fps) to PAL DVD (25fps). The most common way is to speed everything up. You can understand that, right? 24fps->25fps means it plays 4% faster. Virtually all major films from major studios released by major DVD companies are done that way. Check the DVD lengths of some of those in your possession against the 'real' theatrical length as found on IMDB or some place.

The other (major) way, considered much the inferior, is called field-blending. The upshot is that it remains the same length but the video suffers tremendously with blurring, ghosting, double images, flickering. Maybe your mainly audio DVDs were done in that way, either because the label is cheap and fly-by-night or (less likely, I think), the main consideration was the music and not the video. If you posted a short 10-second sample, one with steady movement, one of us could have a look.

Oh, just saw jagabo's comment. Yes, I was referring to film (progressive) sources. For interlaced it's a whole other can of worm and the chances are greater the video remains the same length. Again, though, a sample might be useful, but if the songs are the same length with your video and new audio source then your problem of synching the songs with your video disappears and there remains only getting the black in between frames the correct length.

[efc1978]

Really I don't understand why I have read so many times ALL PAL stuff is 4% fast....., it's not.

It is, most of the time. Maybe you just have crappy DVDs.

There are two main ways to convert film (24fps) to PAL DVD (25fps). The most common way is to speed everything up. You can understand that, right? 24fps->25fps means it plays 4% faster. Virtually all major films from major studios released by major DVD companies are done that way. Check the DVD lengths of some of those in your possession against the 'real' theatrical length as found on IMDB or some place.

The other (major) way, considered much the inferior, is called field-blending. The upshot is that it remains the same length but the video suffers tremendously with blurring, ghosting, double images, flickering. Maybe your mainly audio DVDs were done in that way, either because the label is cheap and fly-by-night or (less likely, I think), the main consideration was the music and not the video. If you posted a short 10-second sample, one with steady movement, one of us could have a look.

Oh, just saw jagabo's comment. Yes, I was referring to film (progressive) sources. For interlaced it's a whole other can of worm and the chances are greater the video remains the same length. Again, though, a sample might be useful, but if the songs are the same length with your video and new audio source then your problem of synching the songs with your video disappears and there remains only getting the black in between frames the correct length.

The DVD's I watch aren't crappy DVD's, they're the correct length and the correct pitch, unless when saying crappy you mean the actual video quality has deteriorated due to the audio being made the correct length?, in the case of live concert and other music DVD's then I guess it's best to sacrifice video quality to get the audio pitch correct.
I'm not doubting PAL 'movies' are sped up, but I am saying I have never noticed any of my live musical concert DVD's being sped up, and at 4% off speed I most certainly would have noticed it if they were. 84500M-C-55M
So I guess PAL music DVD's must all get correctly sped up, in the case of Australia/UK/European basesdc bands couldn't it be that the concerts were just filmed with a 25fps camera?

[efc1978]

What about PAL video sourced from a 'home movie' camera?
I've seen going back to 1989 concert footage filmed by people in the audience at concerts with a PAL home movie camera, simply transferred from PAL VHS to DVD-R, and when compared to a DAT recording they play pretty much to within a couple of tenths of a second.

[manono]

Yes, if created using (probably interlaced) 25fps cameras then, of course, the audio and video will be at the correct pitch and speed on a PAL DVD.

I was under the impression your source for this thread was a retail concert DVD in which case it was probably shot on film and converted to PAL. Maybe I got the wrong impression.

[efc1978]

Yes, if created using (probably interlaced) 25fps cameras then, of course, the audio and video will be at the correct pitch and speed on a PAL DVD.

I was under the impression your source for this thread was a retail concert DVD in which case it was probably shot on film and converted to PAL. Maybe I got the wrong impression.

I just had a quick moment to check this...
The main video source of this project is from a commercially released PAL DVD, originally released on VHS in 1994. The DVD cover says PAL.
I have just taken the first song from the PAL DVD, the length off the PAL DVD is 5min:41secs.4, I then took the same song from the same show sourced from a rare non-commercially available multitrack to DAT to CD source, and it's exactly the same length as the PAL DVD, they're both 5min:41secs.4.
Yet again another example of a PAL DVD being the correct length/speed and pitch, it's definitely not 4% too fast, I keep reading a lot of stuff on the internet that really does read like people are trying to say anything and everything that is PAL will be sped up 4%.
I also sped it up 4% and slowed it down 4% and it sounds way off both ways!, either like zombies or chipmunks!
Good news for my project!, as I won't be needing to individually change the speed of each song to sync to the video.

[Cornucopia]

"Commercially released" doesn't mean it was shot on film, nor that the film - if it WAS shot on film - wasn't shot at 25FPS instead of 24 (especially if they KNEW it was headed for PAL video release). Both of those have been known to happen for "professional" PAL productions, just like there are some NTSC productions that are destined to be "straight-to-homevideo" which are shot ON FILM at 30FPS (actually 29.97).
Just sayin'...

Scott

[manono]

"Commercially released" doesn't mean it was shot on film, nor that the film - if it WAS shot on film - wasn't shot at 25FPS instead of 24 (especially if they KNEW it was headed for PAL video release).

Or shot on film and field-blended to 25fps. And I might quibble about you including anything 25fps as film, especially if it began life in the VHS tape days.

Anyway, if for both sources the songs are the same length, then that's one problem he doesn't have to worry about.

Yet again another example of a PAL DVD being the correct length/speed and pitch, it's definitely not 4% too fast, I keep reading a lot of stuff on the internet that really does read like people are trying to say anything and everything that is PAL will be sped up 4%.
I also sped it up 4% and slowed it down 4% and it sounds way off both ways!, either like zombies or chipmunks!

People are usually referring to movies when talking about PAL speedup. There are, of course, plenty of PAL DVDs originally created at 25fps, although I'm not convinced that's what you have. A 10 second sample would prove or disprove it.

[efc1978]

"Commercially released" doesn't mean it was shot on film, nor that the film - if it WAS shot on film - wasn't shot at 25FPS instead of 24 (especially if they KNEW it was headed for PAL video release).

Or shot on film and field-blended to 25fps. And I might quibble about you including anything 25fps as film, especially if it began life in the VHS tape days.

Anyway, if for both sources the songs are the same length, then that's one problem he doesn't have to worry about.

Yet again another example of a PAL DVD being the correct length/speed and pitch, it's definitely not 4% too fast, I keep reading a lot of stuff on the internet that really does read like people are trying to say anything and everything that is PAL will be sped up 4%.
I also sped it up 4% and slowed it down 4% and it sounds way off both ways!, either like zombies or chipmunks!

People are usually referring to movies when talking about PAL speedup. There are, of course, plenty of PAL DVDs originally created at 25fps, although I'm not convinced that's what you have. A 10 second sample would prove or disprove it.

As you say there are plenty of PAL DVD's created at 25fps, why do you say you're not convinced this is what I have?, when you don't know anything at all about it other than I have a DVD of a live concert. When it's a band based in UK, with a huge European audience (and USA) filmed in France, why do you find it so unlikely to have been originally filmed (recorded) at 25fps?

[manono]

As you say there are plenty of PAL DVD's created at 25fps, why do you say you're not convinced this is what I have?

Because I'm not. I've seen too many examples of funky film to PAL DVDs and VHS tapes to be convinced by someone that doesn't know how to tell what he has. I said I'd need a sample to be convinced. I didn't say you lied or accused you of hiding anything or anything of the sort. Do you know how to cut 10 seconds from a VOB? Was this thing straight to home video or perhaps created as a televised concert with no intention of ever showing it in a movie theater? It never had a theatrical run? If it did play in movie theaters back then, then almost certainly it began life as 24fps. Even in Europe films in movie theaters played at 24fps (or 48 or 72, flashing each frame 2 or 3 times).

...why do you find it so unlikely to have been originally filmed (recorded) at 25fps?

Because if it was really 'filmed' then it was most likely filmed at 24fps. If it was shot using video cameras, then it would probably be 25fps natively if done in Europe.

[efc1978]

As you say there are plenty of PAL DVD's created at 25fps, why do you say you're not convinced this is what I have?

Because I'm not. I've seen too many examples of funky film to PAL DVDs and VHS tapes to be convinced by someone that doesn't know how to tell what he has. I said I'd need a sample to be convinced. I didn't say you lied or accused you of hiding anything or anything of the sort. Do you know how to cut 10 seconds from a VOB? Was this thing straight to home video or perhaps created as a televised concert with no intention of ever showing it in a movie theater? It never had a theatrical run? If it did play in movie theaters back then, then almost certainly it began life as 24fps. Even in Europe films in movie theaters played at 24fps (or 48 or 72, flashing each frame 2 or 3 times).

...why do you find it so unlikely to have been originally filmed (recorded) at 25fps?

Because if it was really 'filmed' then it was most likely filmed at 24fps. If it was shot using video cameras, then it would probably be 25fps natively if done in Europe.

Hi,
I'm not accusing anyone of lying or hiding anything, nor am I claiming people have directed those actions towards me....
I'm just simply asking why would you presume something wasn't shot at 25fps in a PAL country, as I don't know much about how video works.... I enjoy learning more, I'm asking questions to gain knowledge.
The majority of these concerts I have in PAL which are correct speed and pitch are not filmed for cinema release, they're filmed/shot by crews hired by the band to release as DVD's (and back some years eg 80's/early 90's VHS), primarily released/sold at music stores, most of the world's biggest bands (and smallest!) have always worked this way, rarely concerts filmed are shown at a cinema, maybe around time of release a very limited number of select cinemas in a few cities might show the release 5-10 times, but usually never.
It's actually not a major concern to me if the video quality is slightly degraded due to the audio being made correct speed & pitch for PAL, I'd rather lose a bit of video quality and have correct speed and pitch audio, rather than prestine quality video with audio off speed by 4%, I just couldn't enjoy listening to it...., but maybe sometime I'll share a couple of 10 second samples of a couple of different videos.

[efc1978]

It should open in VDub, yes, with File->Open Video File, and the fact that it opens in TMPGEnc means AviSynth is installed correctly and the script is good. I also just tested that exact same script in VDub myself, just to be sure, so I suppose VDub must not have been installed correctly at your end. The reason I mentioned using it was so the script could be tested before encoding. It throws a useful error message if something's wrong with the script, where other applications or programs might not.

My guess is that you didn't install the frameserver support. It's easy. Here's a simple little guide that should still work after all these years:

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/37390-How-to-frameserve-%28dvd2avi-VirtualDub-Avisynth-VFAPI%29

A little down from the top you want the 'Installation hints' and the stuff about Auxsetup.exe.

However I have no way to export that as an .m2v (you mentioned I could combine a blank .m2v with my main video .m2v I'll get from my DVD .VOB's).

If the script is good and for the right length, then any MPEG-2 encoder I've ever used should also accept the script and encode the black screen for the length you want. Won't TMPGEnc encode it for you? If not, why not? A colorspace issue? I chose YV12 because some encoders want that. If not TMPGEnc, HCEnc surely will encode it. Or CCE. Or Procoder. I also tested using CCE to encode the 41 second black screen, and it worked as I expected.

I haven't used TMPGEnc for a very long time and can't help you with it, although others here can.

Once you get your black screen M2V/MPVs made, open the first video in Muxman and use the 'Add' button to add the successive black videos and song videos. When all done with the videos add the audio. I suppose it's too much expect for it to work perfectly the first time, because even one black screen M2V off by a tenth of a second will throw off the audio synch for everything afterwards. But if you're careful it should come out alright in the end. Heck, if you get adventuresome, instead of boring black screens you could insert a red screen. Or use ImageSource to encode an M2V of a photograph.

http://avisynth.nl/index.php/ImageSource

Another thing, at 25 frames per second each frame lasts for 40 ms, so it'll be difficult to get them to exactly match the in between song stuff. If one black screen video is a bit long, maybe make the next one a bit short so it averages out in the end to keep the synch. Good luck.

Hi,
I downloaded Avisynth and Virtuldub again today (making sure both are 64bit), and have the same problem as I did before the weekend, Virtualdub won't open the .avs notepad script file, however I don't think I really need to worry about this seeing as other programmes are successfully using the scripts to create the blank video lengths I specify in the scripts...
I still can't see how to export as .m2v with TMPGEnc so I downloaded your first suggestion of HCEnc, and am successfully exporting blank .m2v's.

Now to a couple of questions...
When it comes to opening the script .avs with HCEnc and exporting the blank video the only thing I'm unsure of is the settings, there's a whole load of options (8 sections at the top with a whole bunch of options under each!), I guess as it's just blank filler video quality isn't really going to matter?, so the only thing I have changed is on the "Main" section I have changed to 4:3 and then clicked the "Make DVD Compliant button", then export the blank .m2v.

I noticed when I split the original DVD .VOB 's video/audio apart with PGCDemux my main video .m2v is 7800kbps, but the 2 individual/separate songs which are extras on the DVD .m2v's are both 7200kbps, does this become a problem when combining all the .m2v's back together?, which brings me to ask do the black .m2v's also have to be a matching bitrate? (they're currently exporting at 8000).

If I leave everything as described in this post will all of the .m2v's stay lossless when combined with the new audio in Muxman?

Thanks

[poisondeathray]

1) Bitrates don't matter much when you append sections (as long as they are legal), for "real" or "blank" sections . (In fact, when you look at the black sections, even though you entered "8000kbps", chances are the actual bitrates will be much less than that)

2) Yes, .m2v's should stay lossless with the steps you described

[efc1978]

1) Bitrates don't matter much when you append sections (as long as they are legal), for "real" or "blank" sections . (In fact, when you look at the black sections, even though you entered "8000kbps", chances are the actual bitrates will be much less than that)

2) Yes, .m2v's should stay lossless with the steps you described

Thanks, looks like I'm all set now!
Wasn't sure if the different bitrate videos were OK to combine as .m2v's, seems a bit odd that the main video bitrate from the DVD is a bit different to the bitrate of the 2 songs which are extras on the DVD (seeing as they're from the same concert), but I don't know much about that sort of stuff so it may be normal, but thought I better check the .m2v's will losslessly mux together as is....
Thanks for the info.

[smrpix]

Wasn't sure if the different bitrate videos were OK to combine as .m2v's

That's how they do it in the big leagues -- using very expensive software, precise manual control and highly skilled artists. More bitrate for more complex scenes, lower bitrate for simpler scenes.