VHS Capture Guidance Requested

[Dark-knight]

You said get better VCRs, and I took your advice. Scored a 1960 AND a 1980 for an unbelievable price. I haven't thoroughly tested them, but he was the original owner and has kept the 1980 unplugged for much of it's life, because he felt the 1960 was a better built unit. It even came with a remote the original manual in mint condition!

[sanlyn]

Is there any difference in the capturing aspect of the 9600 AIW vs the 9800 pro AIW?

No.

That's a kick in the head about the PSU's, etc. Two bad ones in a row is something out of Twilight Zone. It might be hard to believe, but I still see AIW's on auction sites, although it's far from a daily event....maybe a couple times a year by accident when I'm looking for something else. I very nearly had a heart attack 3 years ago when one of those on/off power surges damaged one of my AGP motherboards. How the surge went thru the PSU and hit only the mobo is anyone's guess, but it seems to have affected only a single controller chip of some kind. All PC's are now on battery units -- and paying for that caused a 2 year delay in building a more HD-capable machine. As for the shot mobo, it just so happened about 6 months earlier I saw the product had gone out of production and was selling for 1/3 price at clearance, so I bit the bullet and bought a spare. It also caused a slowdown in everything I plan now, because the cost has to include a spare copy of the mobo and the CPU, neither of which seem to stay in stock for very long nowadays.

Other than AIW there are still decent capture devices around. Most won't ride well with Vista/Win7, though. But I keep seeing posts where people come up with workarounds.

The two acquired VCR's ought to get you somewhere. Here's hoping you have better luck with them.

[Dark-knight]

That 9600 got here today and I swapped it in. Man, it runs so much cooler than my 9800 pro. I picked up a new case with better side panel airflow anyway. I had hoped the 9800 could be saved with some ram sinks and and a good fan, but in the end it didn't help. Once the card heats up, the display starts showing lines. It's not hurting the captures, but it's aggravating to look at. I had more sentimental attachment to my 9800 pro, especially given that I dropped $400 for it back in '04 I think, and it was a crazy saga to get it; but now that I have the 9600, I think it's better, if only because it's not running so damn hot all the time.

Also, that's the very last time I will buy a PSU with cheap caps. I just RMA's a bad EVGA 600B. Bad luck I guess? Damn thing would just turn off as soon as windows tried to boot. I spent some time looking at tear downs of it, and it's using Teapo's even on the secondary side! That's just unforgivable in that price range, and from EVGA no less. It's no wonder they only offer 3 year warranty instead of 5 year like their other models (with Jap Caps). The cheap caps aren't likely why it wasn't working, but no matter because I'm replacing it with a Seasonic that is using Rubycons on both sides. Newegg was running a special, so I got a really good deal.

[sanlyn]

Glad it's starting to work out. I've seen too many stories about EVGA and had my own bout with one of their products a while back. Certain brands set off alarms when I hear them (although I think some of it might just be superstition). AFAIK the 9800 was more of a gamer's concession where speed ruled. But I'm surprised the 9600 imaging is different, as they both used the same capture chip. Maybe the 9800 had long-time problems from earlier use ??? Meanwhile small but tough Seasonics power the two MiniATX HTPC's I built. No problems so far -- which is a miracle, considering how little I know about the hardware's innards.

[lordsmurf]

What board? AGP was long dead by the time the Core i# series debuted. I didn't think there was any board made with an AGP slot with LGA 1156/1366..

I meant Core 2 Duo, not i7.

[Dark-knight]

But I'm surprised the 9600 imaging is different, as they both used the same capture chip. Maybe the 9800 had long-time problems from earlier use ??? Meanwhile small but tough Seasonics power the two MiniATX HTPC's I built. No problems so far -- which is a miracle, considering how little I know about the hardware's innards.

It doesn't image any better. I did 8 test captures last night. In practice, the captures are identical between cards. The difference is only in the actual display output from the 9800, which is corrupted because the memory overheated. Even that is mostly very minor. It's just some thin green and magenta lines that appear along vertical edges of some windows when you drag them around. It doesn't affect the captures at all, and is at best a cosmetic issue. For me, it's irritating to look at because I think the damage to the card was partly my fault.

As to PSUs, Seasonic and PC Power & Cooling are both brands that are nearly universally recommended. They run more expensive than the competition, but you really get what you pay for even on their lower power models.

With other good brands, such as Corsair, EVGA, Fractal, OCZ, Silverstone, quality is top notch in their highend PSUs, but falters in the budget lines to accommodate lower price points. In fact, their best PSUs are often just licensed Seasonic designs. CWT also builds a lot of quality PSUs for these guys, but they are just an OEM and don't sell their own branded PSUs.

Where as Seasonic would simply charge more for a budget PSU that will continue to work well after years, EVGA (500B & 600B) and Corsair (CX series, some low TX series) will reach the lower price point with a design that makes deep sacrifices in quality. That's not to say those PSUs won't work, it's just not going to last forever, or hold up under heavy usage.

I had an Enermax Liberty 500w that I was routinely running beyond it's stated specs when I had built a new system (reusing that PSU from the old system) that was overloading the 12v rail with a stronger GPU. As long as I kept a fan on it, I could game all night. I eventually put that in a server, and replaced that with a coveted Corsair HX850. The HX has been hands down the most rock solid PSU I've ever owned.

[techiejustin]

When I converted my old home videos from old Video8 to MiniDV, and thus a file on my hard drive, I used a Sony TRV-460. When I had an old VHS tape, I simply used the line in function of the TRV-460, and connected the Firewire to my Macbook. The quality was better than any capture card.
Here's a screen grab from 1988, about the same period as yours, and there's no noise.

It was hard to get a decent still from the video since my brother (at 12 years old) didn't hold the camera still. Now he's pushing 40, and with a brand new AVCHD camera - still can't hold it still.

[Dark-knight]

When I had an old VHS tape, I simply used the line in function of the TRV-460, and connected the Firewire to my Macbook. The quality was better than any capture card.

I have a Proscan CRT setup near my capturing rig. I can watch these tapes on this TV that I've had for nearly 20 years and get a baseline on what I should expect it to look like at a minimum. Having watched a couple of the tapes this way, I can say for certain that an AIW capture system works great. If anything, it's picking up more of the frame than a TV due to overscan. I'm not seeing any additional noise or artifacting from the capture system itself.

My point is really that the capture system isn't the limiting factor in quality (now that I've sunk a fair bit of time/money into it), it's the VCR I'm using. I'm currently working on that problem as well.

I'm not seeing the dot crawl I was getting with the Dazzle, but there is other noise coming from the VCRs themselves. I have another one coming this week that should give me some decent results. I'm likely going to get the Panasonics serviced as well, since I have a few SLP tapes and there is a chance the 1980 could give me a damn decent picture even on the SP tapes.

[techiejustin]

When I had an old VHS tape, I simply used the line in function of the TRV-460, and connected the Firewire to my Macbook. The quality was better than any capture card.

...

I'm not seeing the dot crawl I was getting with the Dazzle, but there is other noise coming from the VCRs themselves. I have another one coming this week that should give me some decent results. I'm likely going to get the Panasonics serviced as well, since I have a few SLP tapes and there is a chance the 1980 could give me a damn decent picture even on the SP tapes.

Gotcha.
I remember seeing somewhere a S-VHS deck that had a Firewire connection. I wish I could remember which one it was.

[Dark-knight]

There ya have it. Not much to the v101. At first I was worried the box was empty, because it was so very light. The playback is actually pretty good compared to my other units (disclaimer that the AGs need servicing). I'm working on some tests, but don't want to ruin an important tape. I also need to spend some time with the instructions. Seems like you can't have the "Video Stabilizer" AND the TBC on at the same time.

Looks like all of the settings are in the OSD menu rather than with hardware switches. Seemed like the remote wasn't working, but the VCR is actually set to "B" codes some how. Once I found how to make that adjustment with the remote, it worked as well.

Just ordered a set of Monster THX 1000 S video cables (new old stock, not ebay fakes), got a good deal.

Had a line on an S9600 sold locally for a ridiculously low price. The guy jerked me around for several hours. I couldn't get a phone number or an address like I was dealing with a paranoid woman. He said he wanted to meet a grocery store (wtf right?). Then when I'm actually on my way out there, I get an email from him claiming it was "No longer available"! He claims he thought I was interested in something else he was selling. He finally gave me a phone number with that email, so I called and asked him what happened to it. He said he left it behind when he moved, which seems suspicious since he had just posted a picture of it. Huge waste of time, very disappointing evening, should have known it was too good to be true.

[Dark-knight]

Posting this here incase anyone is looking for it.

Transcribed from the manual:

Digital TBC/NR:
Your VCR is equipped with a Digital TBC (Time Base Corrector) that removes jitter from fluctuating video signals to deliver a stable picture even with old tapes and rental cassettes. The on/off of Digital -- DNR (Noise Reduction) which cuts noise and enables clear picture reproduction is also linked to this function. It is recommended to use Digital TBC feature when playing back a tape recorded on a camcorder, playing back a tape repeatedly used and using this video recorder as the player for editing.

Video Stablizer:
When this function is set to "ON", you can automatically correct vertical vibrations in the picture when playing back unstable recordings made on another VCR.

So it seems that the manual suggests you should use the TBC for everything but tapes that were recorded on another VCR. I know the VCR's TBC makes a huge difference on an old commercial test tape I have been using. The first 10 seconds of the tape were miserable on all other VCRs to varying degrees, but looked near perfect on this unit (only with TBC on).

Other relevant options to picture clarity are:

Digital R3:
When this function is set to "ON", edge correction to the luminance signal is performed to enhance details. Normally set this function to "ON".

Picture Control:
This function helps you to adjust the playback picture quality according to your preference.
AUTO (Norm): Normally select this. Picture quality is adjusted automatically. When "Video Calibration" is "OFF", "NORM" will appear instead of "AUTO".
EDIT: Minimizes picture degradation during editing (recording and playback).
SOFT: Reduces image coarseness when viewing overplayed tapes containing much noise.
SHARP: Clearer, sharper-edged picture when viewing images with much flat, same-colored surfaces such as cartoons.

[manono]

So it seems that the manual suggests you should use the TBC for everything but tapes that were recorded on another VCR.

That's not the way I read it. I think it's saying that in addition to whether or not you choose to use the TBC, when playing tapes made on another VCR it's suggested you turn on the video stabilizer. The TBC and the video stabilizer perform different functions. All my tapes were made on different VCRs and I always have my TBC on. It's a different Panasonic VCR and the TBC is independent of the DNR (which I never turn on).

Unfortunately, the TBC is linked to the DNR. Both on or both off. Which VCR is this, the 1980?

[Dark-knight]

Unfortunately, the TBC is linked to the DNR. Both on or both off. Which VCR is this, the 1980?

This is for the V101US. It's exactly the opposite. It's not both on/off it's EITHER/OR. In the OSD when you turn one on, the other turns off. I have tried to turn both on and off. They are on different menu pages. When you turn one on, flip back to the last page, the other has turned off. You cannot activate both.


Also, I'm having an unrelated issue. I'm trying to do a comparison of playback quality between VCRs. This home movie I have played fine in the Magnavox a couple weeks ago when I made my first capture, and it plays fine in the JVC now.

I put it back in the Magnavox today, and all I'm getting is static unless I pause, rewind, or fast forward, then I get an image. In the second that it takes between FF and play, the image is clear. I have tried manual tracking, such as it is, I never get much of a picture.

Edit: Actually it's doing that with all tapes now. WTF?

Edit Edit: Looks like there was something on the head. Used a disposable Zeiss Lens Cleaning Cloth (non-cotton, more like paper) which made a huge improvement, but still left distortion after thoroughly cleaning it. I hit the cloth with some additional Alc, used it again, this time it came clean. The picture is good again.

[manono]

Oh, either or, one or the other? That's odd, but you're not missing out by not being able to use the DNR at the same time as all VCR DNRs suck and you can do a much better job in software afterwards.

It's good you were able to get the heads cleaned. Maybe you had a real dirty or moldy tape you played in it?

[Dark-knight]

Took a long time to put together, but I finally got a SBS video comparison between the Magnavox and the JVC.

Both of the clips were captured with the new(ish) capture machine. New 9600 AIW in a good, grounded case, with a new Seasonic PSU.

There is still significant noise on the MGNVX, and to a lesser extent the JVC. They are about as far away from noisy sources as I can get them at the moment. I have Monster S video cables on the way that may mitigate this. Although, if the noise was because of the cable, it seems like it should be the same intensity on both captures, while it is actually very diminished on the JVC. Both units are plugged into the same UPS, nothing else on the circuit except a handful of computers. With the same cables & the same power source, I'm not certain what else the source of the noise could be, besides the tape.

Still no external TBC, it's on the list.

Mostly, I notice a lot of flashing and blown highlights on the MG; better color rendering and less noise on the JVC.

[Brad]

I find two separate captures trimmed to the same starting frame (or one file with the captures Interleaved) easier to compare since you can see the same portions of each image.

Kind of annoying that the better VCR has more head switching noise.

[Dark-knight]

I find two separate captures trimmed to the same starting frame (or one file with the captures Interleaved) easier to compare since you can see the same portions of each image.

Kind of annoying that the better VCR has more head switching noise.

You know, the Panasonic was the same way. I thought that was actually a problem at first because the Magnavox has so little distortion at the bottom.

If you have suggestions on how you'd like to see a comparison presented or more tests carried out, I have the original captures and of course the tapes and VCRs still.

Also, I was digging through my storage room today and stumbled on a NIB Radioshack wet VHS head cleaner. Could have saved me some trouble the other day.

[sanlyn]

Watch out for those cleaning tapes. Mainly they don't clear the grit, they just smear it and wipe it on other parts. ANd video heads frequently don't get along with them. Best to use cleaning fluid (or 90# alcohol) and cleaning swaps or even a piece of paper wetted with the cleaner. Never use cotton swabs (you've been warned!).

[Dark-knight]

Looks like Xmas came Early! Let's Talk Workflows....

Also, does anyone have experience with using non-stock adapters with the DR-1000? I ask because I know the BVP4 is particular about it. The DR-1000 I got didn't come with the original adapter.

[Dark-knight]

So, should I run my old tapes through a low end VCR first to kind of wipe them a bit before they go into one of the better VCRs, to help keep the oxide out?